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The weakest recovery in modern times.

Well folks, there you you liberal economic ignorance all summed up in one post!
You have 'no poer' to effect your wage. Yease seriously, he said that-read it for yourself.

You know what naturally follows, right?
Only the GOVERNMENT can help you .
For example , by forcing companies to pay you more for no production( ie minimum wage laws)

Only government?
A good strong union would do a much better job than government ever could.
Anyway, government is in the hands of the oligarchy.
 
Henry Ford did.

But apparantly my point went over your head.....e.

Apparently MY point went over your head. Henry Ford made a decision that was best for HIS company( not anybody else's)

He , like most most business owner, knew more than some government bureaucrat what was the correct labor rate to maximize value for HIS ( not anybody else's ) company.
 
Apparently MY point went over your head. Henry Ford made a decision that was best for HIS company( not anybody else's)

He , like most most business owner, knew more than some government bureaucrat what was the correct labor rate to maximize value for HIS ( not anybody else's ) company.

That's a perfectly valid point. But I'm not sure how anyone could have gotten that from your post.
 
Well folks, there you you liberal economic ignorance all summed up in one post!
You have 'no poer' to effect your wage. Yease seriously, he said that-read it for yourself.

You know what naturally follows, right?
Only the GOVERNMENT can help you .
For example , by forcing companies to pay you more for no production( ie minimum wage laws)
I would contend that you are the one suffering from economic ignorance. According to your view, we need to bow down and reward the "job creators" for keeping the economy sound. What your view ignores is that those "job creators" are beholden to economic demand. Who is this demand? You, me and everyone else. My spending is the job creator's income.

None of that has any bearing on the [false] view that these job creators have to be rewarded with low taxes in order for them not to go Galt. As evidence, I present Forbes' reprint: How top executives live (Fortune, 1955). This was a time of much higher tax-rates and much less income inequality.

According to modern conservative dogma, the high tax-rates on "job creators" should have brought economic progress to a screeching halt. Yet, according to Fortune, executives continued to work hard -- and the postwar generation was actually a period of economic progress that has never been matched. Yes, the government raising the minimum wage, passing high taxes on wealth and supporting unions, created the best economy for the middle-class in history.
 
The economy, by every metric, is better than when I came into office," Obama told Jon Stewart during his last appearance on "The Daily Show....
One of these things does not prove the other. ;)

Politifact is mostly, but not entirely, correct -- several metrics are not better than when Obama took office. We should note that LFPR is not a good indicator of that -- as most of the drops in LFPR during Obama's term are due to people retiring, and going to school. Only a small portion of people have indefinitely left the workforce because they were unable to get work.

That said, by many measures, things certainly have gotten better. Unemployment is almost entirely back to normal; we've had a record-breaking 70 months of job growth; today's jobs report is another gangbuster; the auto industry, saved by Obama, had an outstanding year. I.e. lots of good news overall.


As to the "weakest recovery..." that tends to happen after the worst economic crisis in modern times. It doesn't help that the federal government was willing to use more direct stimulus measures in past recoveries. In this one, not only was half of the 2009 stimulus tax cuts, but there were several instances of big federal budget cuts during the recovery, as well as cutting the federal workforce. State governments also had major cutbacks, as their revenues fell, and they have restrictions on borrowing.
 
That chart shows the productiviuty (sic) of minimum wage workers?
{ Rhetorical: No it doesn't, so it's worthless to my point)
Yes, they are included in the chart, and since I was discussing median (since WCH doesn't say where he is on the scale, I doubt he is min wage) income, I'm not required to change the goal post for you. If you want to find min wage productivity exclusively to justify your argument that min wage workers don't deserve increases, go for it, I'm not required to prove your argument. But lets say min wage worker production has stayed the same, their wages have not kept up....but have declined.

Minimum wage laws for DUMMIES>

Worker A is producing at X output and making Y.

The Goverment wants to change the equation so that worker A still is producing at X, but now should be paid Y + 10.

The +10 is pay for doing nothing
Federal levels have not kept up with inflation, they have declined in real terms. So your argument fails in that it is a distraction from my point, and it fails on merit.
 
Equitable?
That's BS-our tax system is not designed to be equitable.
Au contrare:

shareoftaxes2011.png
 
same chart, updated for 2015.
http://ctj.org/pdf/taxday2015.pdf

Notice that as you go up the income ladder, the red line exceeds the blue. exactly as I said.

And that's form a left wing wing group Citizens for Tax Justice.
Seriously, you are going to quibble over...what? 1.6%? Dealing in absolutes is a losing argument.

If you want reliable information , you have to go a conservative source.

Top 20% of Earners Pay 84% of Income Tax - WSJ

Title says it all. And please DO NOT WASTE MY TIME WITH LEFT WING SPIN.
Um, they paid that level....because of the percentage of income captured.....hurr durr.

The point still is that taxes are distributed equitably based on percentage of income. Maybe this concept is just to difficult to grasp.

PS, if you want me to discuss your original post, then respond to my first counter.
 
Seri
Um, they paid that level....because of the percentage of income captured.....hurr durr.

Tunter.


They 'captured ' that income huh? Didn't earn. ( good grief).

Just because somebody make more money why is it FAIR that they owe more to the GOvernment? That's left wing spin.
It's pragmatic, but you have to really torture the definition of fair to call it that.

If 10 people are eating at restaurant, and the restaurant made the richest person pay 80 % of the total bill, would that be 'fair" ?
Silly .


If you go into a reataurant, you don't pay
 
Literally impossible unless we usher in some truly ludicrous policies and stop trading with places such as china that have sucked up low skill manufacturing, which is to be expected, given they are a massive, growing country with hundreds of millions of people/laborers. We're a service based economy now, and unfortunately, this seems to bring with it some consequences. The best way to help the people who don't do well in the service industry could be the state providing employment... or we let them sit back because, hell, the world is doing better and better, and with automation...

Well it is really the only solution. And I mean it can be impossible and still be the only fix. I mean there is that and then there is of course reducing he population here in the US, reduce the number of college grads by increasing the difficulty of both high school and college so that people require less education to become productive members of society. I mean there are a bunch of ways to go about fixing some of our problems, none are very realistic ;)
 
They 'captured ' that income huh? Didn't earn. ( good grief).
It is a commonly used term in economic discussions
Just because somebody make (sic) more money why is it FAIR that they owe more to the GOvernment? That's left wing spin.
You brought up tax equity, but now you are arguing that taxation should not follow income.
It's pragmatic, but you have to really torture the definition of fair to call it that.
You showed it was still fair or equitable in 2015.
If 10 people are eating at restaurant, and the restaurant made the richest person pay 80 % of the total bill, would that be 'fair" ?
Sure it would, if that person was getting 80% of the food.
Silly .If you go into a reataurant, (sic) you don't pay
Whut?
 
False, your wage does come out of their profit, your labor created their profit. Your median wage has lost ground while their profits grew, you have been shorted, cheated, because you have no power to effect your wage.

LOL! I work for myself and determine what I charge these corporation...not them. If they're not making money, they're not paying what I demand.
 
Yeah, his interest is focused on the 1%. Funny that they have seen the largest rate of tax increases since 2012.
Interesting how tax rates for the top 1% and 0.01% continued to drop from Obama's inauguration until 2012. Tax rates are a result of Congress and it is clear the impact of Republicans taking over Congress.
 
LOL! I work for myself and determine what I charge these corporation...not them. If they're not making money, they're not paying what I demand.
Again, wages, or in your case contractor charges, are not paid from profits.....they are an expense. For someone who is self employed, you should know this. And a corporation doesn't have to be profitable to to pay contractors, plenty of non-profits do so every day.
 
It
Sure it would, if that person was getting 80% of the food.
?

I take that as a white flag. If they were getting 80% of the food at least you could argue that was fair. But of course they wouldn't be , just like they don't get 80% of government benefits( even though they pay that match).
 
I take that as a white flag.
No, I'll tell you directly if I'm quitting.
If they were getting 80% of the food at least you could argue that was fair.
That is what I said
But of course they wouldn't be
So you say, so you created an unfair situation, not me.
just like they don't get 80% of government benefits( even though they pay that match).
I disagree, they have their wealth protected, which is what matters to them. They have their future wealth protected in the form of markets of all sorts, sales, labor, investment.....and they utilize and profit greatly from their outsized access to those markets.
 
They 'captured ' that income huh? Didn't earn. ( good grief).
In the top end? Actually, yes.

Many of the top earners are collecting economic rents, not generating value. Hedge funders, financial workers, those who live off of asset income, make up most of the top 1% of income earners, and are rentiers.

Hedge funds typically make "2 and 20," or 2% of assets under management and 20% of any capital gains. To "earn" this, they pursue strategies that add little or nothing to the economy, like currency arbitrage, or exploiting pending trades via high-frequency schemes. (Their returns sucked in 2015 by the way, barely beating the S&P 500 by enough to cover what they charge customers.)

Companies that Make Real Stuff can still be unjustified in pay. Not all, e.g. the someone like the CEO of Caterpillar helps his company build real-world tools that produce real-world economic benefits. Even so, 1/3 of Cat's shareholders slammed the executive compensation scheme. In a year when the company's stock trailed the S&P 500 and returns were lacking, the CEO got a 14% bump in pay to $17 million.

The CEO Pay to Median Employee Pay Ratio for Cat was 71:1. That is well above the average company in the 1970s, sucks compared to a knowledge-based company like Amazon (18:1), but is not bad compared to Walmart (1000:1).


Just because somebody make more money why is it FAIR that they owe more to the GOvernment?
1) They're paying a percentage of income. Not sure why that strikes you as particularly unfair.

2) Taxes are a corrective to income inequality, which is highly corrosive when it becomes too great. And yes, income inequality is bad for the economy as a whole. (e.g. Why Inequality Is Bad for Economic Growth - US News)

3) As you go up the income scale, more and more of their income winds up doing nothing. It sits on the sidelines, it's just surplus. Aside from the inequality portion, it's bad economically.

4) In order to make all that lovely money, they need to rely greatly on a broad array of government services and protections.

5) The more money you have, the more you can pay your accountants to reduce your tax liabilities. Most of the 1% have the same effective tax rates as the top 20%. But as you get further into the stratosphere, your tax liabilities go down:

imrs.php


6) Almost all of the income gains since the 1970s have gone to the top executives (and financial types). Worker productivity has gone up, but their cut of wages has not. It is also an illusion that the executives "create value." The CEO doesn't often change performance much; and for every Jeff Bezos and Steve Jobs, there is a Tim Cook (who can do an adequate job of running Apple) and a Bernie Ebbers (who drove Worldcom into the ground).


If 10 people are eating at restaurant, and the restaurant made the richest person pay 80 % of the total bill, would that be 'fair" ?
Since that doesn't describe the American economy, I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate here.

You have 10 workers at the restaurant. 3 are low-skilled (busboys), 3 are medium-skilled (wait staff), 3 have advance training (chefs), 1 ties it all together (manager). It makes sense that the busboys get paid less than the wait staff, who get paid less than the chefs, who get paid less than the manager. It does not make sense that the manager should earn 80% of all the wages.
 
Well it is really the only solution. And I mean it can be impossible and still be the only fix. I mean there is that and then there is of course reducing he population here in the US, reduce the number of college grads by increasing the difficulty of both high school and college so that people require less education to become productive members of society. I mean there are a bunch of ways to go about fixing some of our problems, none are very realistic ;)

That's the rub, isn't it? Every complex problem has a simple but unrealistic solution.
 
The economy, by every metric, is better than when I came into office," Obama told Jon Stewart during his last appearance on "The Daily Show.

View attachment 67195287

Even Liberal Politifact was buying that BS.

"Our ruling

Obama said, "The economy, by every metric, is better than when I came into office."

That claim is too sweeping. Certain measures of wages and income, the poverty rate and the duration of unemployment are all worse now than they were when Obama "came into office."

The statement contains an element of truth but ignores facts that would give a different impression, so we rate it Mostly False.
Barack Obama tells Jon Stewart the economy, 'by every metric, is better' than when he took office | PolitiFact

Six million more Americans live in poverty today than when Obama was elected. Median household income (in real dollars) was no higher at the end of 2015 than at the end of 2007. The labor force participation rate — the share of working-age Americans who have a job or are looking for one — has sunk to 62.5 percent, a level not seen since the Carter administration. Since the recession ended, the economy has grown at an annual rate of just 2.2 percent. That is way below average for post-recession recoveries. Indeed, this has been the weakest economic recovery in modern times......
Far from anticipating the limping slog of the last seven years, the White House confidently forecast an economic recovery that would feature robust GDP growth of 4 percent or more. It never came close.

More Americans would be working, paychecks would be larger, and public confidence would be sturdier if the economy had bounced back as vigorously as expected. Obama thought he had a better way to fix a recession. Turns out he had a worse way. Live and learn, voters.



The Weakest Economic Recovery in Modern Times - Jeff Jacoby - Page 2


no one expected a robust recovery, that doesnt happen in financial crashes.
 
no one expected a robust recovery, .

..and Obama lived up to those expectation!!


LAFF

{actually , he did promise a robust recovery-just didn't happen}
 
Things are far from perfect, but recoveries from a deep financial crisis always take years.

However, it is worth pointing out that we have enjoyed the strongest recovery and strongest economy of any of our peer nations since 2008. If a Republican were in office and the United States was outperforming every other modern developed nation on earth, you can bet your ass that all the Republicans would be screaming it from the rooftops.
 
Things are far from perfect, but recoveries from a deep financial crisis always take years.

However, it is worth pointing out that we have enjoyed the strongest recovery and strongest economy of any of our peer nations since 2008. If a Republican were in office and the United States was outperforming every other modern developed nation on earth, you can bet your ass that all the Republicans would be screaming it from the rooftops.

Absolutely true. Friday's jobs numbers were also impressive. Right now, Obama's economy has added 14 million jobs -- which is more than Bush, even if you exclude all the jobs lost during the recession. But, conservatives will still insist that Obama policies are job-killing.
 
...

5) The more money you have, the more you can pay your accountants to reduce your tax liabilities. Most of the 1% have the same effective tax rates as the top 20%. But as you get further into the stratosphere, your tax liabilities go down:

imrs.php
The equation changed in 2013, when Obama raised taxes on that top group.

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