The thought of having an abortion makes my skin crawl

[kerussll]

I'm not the one who used the term initially. I merely corrected the obvious mis-representation of the pro-choice/pro-abortion stance. So maybe read before you start making accusations next time.

I know you're not the first to use that term. But you support the term being used. You state "pro abortion means you support that women should have the right to access safe abortions should they choose to seek one out." That's obviously not the most literal interpretation of the term, or what most people mean when they say it. Again, what is the point of even using this term when "pro-choice" has already been chosen by this group to represent their views and describes the position so much better? It's just rude.

 

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Many states employ the 20-week rule or the "viability" rule, with the exception for threat against the life of the mother, severe deformity, or fetal death. Viability usually means closer to 30 weeks-ish.

Edit: Here's a link: http://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_OAL.pdf

Which is really funny, since a 20-week-old fetus is not viable. No fetus that early has ever survived. Ever. In very rare circumstances, fetuses in the low 20-something weeks survive, but they almost always develop extreme and debilitating health problems. Honestly, I think it's cruel to try to save a fetus that's born that under-developed. Even if you succeed, what have you accomplished besides torturing it?

 

[JayDubya]

I know you're not the first to use that term. But you support the term being used. You state "pro abortion means you support that women should have the right to access safe abortions should they choose to seek one out." That's obviously not the most literal interpretation of the term, or what most people mean when they say it. Again, what is the point of even using this term when "pro-choice" has already been chosen by this group to represent their views and describes the position so much better? It's just rude.

"Pro-choice" is a misleading and inaccurate term. I'm not going to use it.

Pro-abortion is an accurate term for the position Luna takes in the OP.

 

[Thunder]

"Pro-choice" is a misleading and inaccurate term. I'm not going to use it.....

well then I expect you to also reject the term "Pro-Life", as it is equally misleading & inaccurate.

"anti-Abortion" is more appropriate & correct.

 

[choiceone]

well then I expect you to also reject the term "Pro-Life", as it is equally misleading & inaccurate.

"anti-Abortion" is more appropriate & correct.

We could call the stand "No choice," and the people "No choicers."

 

[Zen]

Are there any reputable studies showing what percentage of "pro-choice" women are personally anti-abortion or personally pro-abortion? Male opinions hardly seem to matter, so seeing the female breakdown would be most interesting.

 

[RadicalModerate]

We could call the stand "No choice," and the people "No choicers."

And we shall be victorious in the Great Semantics War of 2012!

 

[AGENT J]

"Pro-choice" is a misleading and inaccurate term. I'm not going to use it.

Pro-abortion is an accurate term for the position Luna takes in the OP.

nobody honest, intelligent and logical thinks this way

 

[Luna Tick]

nobody honest, intelligent and logical thinks this way

Thanks, that is correct. It's ironic that the policies that would actually reduce abortion are opposed by the pro-life crowd. If we created universal health care (whether via socialism or other means) that includes pre-natal care and birth control, abortion levels would dramatically go down. If we did none of that and simply criminalized abortion, we would see abortion continue via the illegal and unsafe underground and via abortion tourism to other countries. Do you want abortion rates to actually go down or do you just want to pretend you're doing something? We could all pretend that there's no marijuana or prostitution in the country because we've criminalized these things, but that would not make it so. It would make us deluded. And those who want abortion criminalized are equally deluded.

 

[AGENT J]

Thanks, that is correct. It's ironic that the policies that would actually reduce abortion are opposed by the pro-life crowd. If we created universal health care (whether via socialism or other means) that includes pre-natal care and birth control, abortion levels would dramatically go down. If we did none of that and simply criminalized abortion, we would see abortion continue via the illegal and unsafe underground and via abortion tourism to other countries. Do you want abortion rates to actually go down or do you just want to pretend you're doing something? We could all pretend that there's no marijuana or prostitution in the country because we've criminalized these things, but that would not make it so. It would make us deluded. And those who want abortion criminalized are equally deluded.

while I agree in many ways dont group Jaydubya in with the pro-life crowd, thats unfair. There are normal rational honest logical objective pro-life people he just inst one of them.

as for the rest of your thread yes I agree with you.

my abortion stances is thid and always has been.

the debate for me is about my country and my fellow americans's freedom, laws, rights and liberties. Whats right for "me" doesnt need forced on others and as an american I refuse to be that type of hypocrite.

Just cause I dont like abortion and wish it wasnt needed doesnt mean I should foolishly push it to be outlawed (which would do very little to stop it)

In reality on the abortion front, equal rights is impossible. The women currently has rights and unfortunatly the ZEF has very little to none/ BUT the issues is one must have more rights than the other, in reality it doesnt work any other way.

Since those are the only choices of course I obviously side with the already born, viable human being who is also a citizen over the unknown. Because thats what a ZEF is, an unknown, that is not already born viable or a citizen and may not even become one.

If abortion was made illegal and personhood was granted at conception I could never condone the government forcing a women against her will to go through 9 months of pregnancy and then after that forcing her to give birth against her will. Both to these things can physically/mentally harm her and or kill her. To a women who doesnt want to do this, it certainly sounds like government torture to me. Does that come off dramatic? yes it does but in reality is it? what would you call forcing a women to do those things against her will?

Also during those 9 months if she is being forced, her rights, freedoms, liberties and pursuit of happiness are also taken away from her against her will.

work (maybe her job endangers the ZEF or when she takes time off it negatively affects her career)
school (maybe she has to drop out or graduate later or maybe now she cant afford it)
caffeine, nicotine etc
foods
chemicals
sky diving, roller coasters LOL
forms of exercise
tanning
etc etc etc

I know some of this sounds silly but that would be the reality

Every decision she makes will have to be based on whats in the best interest of the ZEF no matter how that impacts her and even if it risks her life.

No thanks, thats not for me and doesnt seem like my country at all!

as far as abortion, family foster reform goes

Im for improved sex education, improved technologies for birth control, improved access and low cost to the better birth control, improved access and better health care for families, orgs like PP.

Id be ok with but wouldnt push for a national cap on when abortions can be done. Maybe like 20wkks but this cap would be a soft cap and each case would be circumstantial.

on another end of it we need serious reform of our foster system. It cant handle the kids it has now, so it be asinine to introduce potential 1million plus more kids into it a year.

It be great to have less abortions but that only comes with whats listed above not law enforcement.

and I know it will sound weird but abortion is actually pretty low percentage wise right now, Id like to see it lower but it is low if compare a million abortions a year to the amount of sex people are actually having.

 

[JayDubya]

I can see from your quote that someone has taken placement on the ignore list as carte blanche to troll hardcore.

Challenging other's intellect when your own statements are insipid strings of smileys and internet shorthand is risible.

Refrain from talking to me or about me. Refrain from your personal attacks. Do not reply to this post, I will not be reading it.

 

[AGENT J]

I can see from your quote that someone has taken placement on the ignore list as carte blanche to troll hardcore.

Challenging other's intellect when your own statements are insipid strings of smileys and internet shorthand is risible.

Refrain from talking to me or about me. Refrain from your personal attacks. Do not reply to this post, I will not be reading it.

LMAO :laughat:

wait?

did somebody that claims to ignore me and have me on their ignore list STILL read my post because it was quoted and then STILL indirectly respond to me? :lamo wow talking about making a fool of yourself.

nobody here trolled
Nobody challenged your intellect because we are having HONEST debate here we arent having a coloring contest
If you dont want posters to talk about you or the illogical stuff you post, stop posting, its a pretty simple solution

and obviously you will read this once someone quotes it because you just proved thats what you do, WOW! lol (BTW somebody please quote this so he can read it or so he claims LOL)

so first I exposed you in multiple threads and now you expose yourself by making a post about me that you say you ignore me???? Weird

looks like the beating you took is still deep in your psyche

You are still one of my favorite posters to expose :2wave:

 

[zgoldsmith23]

LMAO :laughat:

wait?

did somebody that claims to ignore me and have me on their ignore list STILL read my post because it was quoted and then STILL indirectly respond to me? :lamo wow talking about making a fool of yourself.

nobody here trolled
Nobody challenged your intellect because we are having HONEST debate here we arent having a coloring contest
If you dont want posters to talk about you or the illogical stuff you post, stop posting, its a pretty simple solution

and obviously you will read this once someone quotes it because you just proved thats what you do, WOW! lol (BTW somebody please quote this so he can read it or so he claims LOL)

so first I exposed you in multiple threads and now you expose yourself by making a post about me that you say you ignore me???? Weird

looks like the beating you took is still deep in your psyche

You are still one of my favorite posters to expose :2wave:

You and me both! :cheers:

 

[choiceone]

Are there any reputable studies showing what percentage of "pro-choice" women are personally anti-abortion or personally pro-abortion? Male opinions hardly seem to matter, so seeing the female breakdown would be most interesting.

Polls do not seem to show any significant difference between men and women as regards support for keeping abortion legal or for making it illegal in all, most, or a few circumstances or as regards agreement that abortion is always or never immoral or that its morality status depends on circumstances. So why would it show a difference on this? What is interesting is to compare the percentages of people who support keeping abortion legal and people polled on their feelings about its morality: there is where you probably find the mix you are trying to find.

 

[Ontologuy]

I would never have an abortion.

Even if I were raped, I wouldn't abort.

The thought of killing a baby just horrifies me.

If I had a magic wand, I would make it so that abortion is something that never happened.

I can understand your conclusion, that you would never have an abortion.

And I can understand that conclusion as it stems from your premise that "the thought of killing a baby just horrifies me".

So what you're saying makes sense, rationally.

I have some questions, though.

Why does the thought of killing a baby horrify you; what is it about killing a baby that you find horrifying, and why is killing a baby so horrific?

Do you think everyone finds the thought of killing a baby horrific?

If so, why ?

If you don't think everyone finds the thouht of killing a baby horrific, why don't they; why do some find it horrific and others don't?

 

[choiceone]

I can understand your conclusion, that you would never have an abortion.

And I can understand that conclusion as it stems from your premise that "the thought of killing a baby just horrifies me".

So what you're saying makes sense, rationally.

I have some questions, though.

Why does the thought of killing a baby horrify you; what is it about killing a baby that you find horrifying, and why is killing a baby so horrific?

Do you think everyone finds the thought of killing a baby horrific?

If so, why ?

If you don't think everyone finds the thouht of killing a baby horrific, why don't they; why do some find it horrific and others don't?

This is an interesting set of questions. While I would love to think everyone finds the thought of killing a baby, by which I mean a born being, horrific, the fact is that some people kill neonates and do not experience horror at doing so. I would think they are mentally really different from those who do not do that or not experience horror. I find it horrific because the baby is just there doing nothing to anyone - it is genuinely harmless. I can't say that about a ZEF.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

I'm mildly amused. The idea of facing another horrific pregnancy sometimes gives me a panic attack, night terrors and the most vivid and horrific nightmares.

I don't care if it was god's redemption growing in me - horrifying is putting it mildly.

 

[RamFel]

I'm mildly amused. The idea of facing another horrific pregnancy sometimes gives me a panic attack, night terrors and the most vivid and horrific nightmares.

I don't care if it was god's redemption growing in me - horrifying is putting it mildly.

Sounds like you scare easy.

 

[choiceone]

Sounds like you scare easy.

Sounds like you have zip sympathy for any pregnant woman and therefore deserve never to have a wife.

 

[JayDubya]

One can have sympathy for someone else without wanting them to have a get out of jail free card for murder.

 

[RamFel]

V

Sounds like you have zip sympathy for any pregnant woman and therefore deserve never to have a wife.

That's a very unfair accusation because when you really look at it, you yourself (and other pro-abortionists) don't come out smelling too good.

You want women to go through a dangerous procedure that almost always kills one, and potentially harms the other.

Whereas I care for both mother and child.

 

[Scrabaholic]

V

That's a very unfair accusation because when you really look at it, you yourself (and other pro-abortionists) don't come out smelling too good.

You want women to go through a dangerous procedure that almost always kills one, and potentially harms the other.

Whereas I care for both mother and child.

Legal abortion in the first procedure is not a dangerous procedure. There's a higher maternal death rate from gestation and childbirth. Even appendectomy has a higher death rate.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Sounds like you scare easy.

No - being serious. I had one too many ambulance rides, surgeries and stays in the ICU. My pregnancies were not safe or pretty. My obgyn really believed that during my 3rd pregnancy since I had to have surgery to address the origins of one serious complication then another pregnancy wouldn't be as risky - but it was. . . much more risky. I'm tapped out - no more nightmarish pregnancies for me, thanks.

If I had simple, easy pregnancies without complications I'd have a different outlook and probably several more children.

 

[Pinkie]

Well, first, I applaud the Op, who intends to act in accordance with her own private morality and who sees helping women avoid unwanted pregnancies as the best means of reducing the incidence of abortion -- a goal all thinking people should be able to agree on.

I don't believe any normal woman welcomes an abortion -- I think it's always a tragic and terrifying event unless the patient is a sociopath. What so few in the anti-abortion camp seem willing to acknowledge is that it is a PRIVATE tragedy and one that each woman should be permitted to face with decent medical care, privacy and dignity.

 

[choiceone]

V

That's a very unfair accusation because when you really look at it, you yourself (and other pro-abortionists) don't come out smelling too good.

You want women to go through a dangerous procedure that almost always kills one, and potentially harms the other.

Whereas I care for both mother and child.

I do not "want" women to have abortions. I want women to be free of the fear that you and the government will use violent physical force to control their sex organs against their will, conscience, freedom of religion, and security of person and personal autonomy. You do want to use violent physical force to control women's sex organs against their will, etc., if you favor anti-abortion laws. I want women to get to decide whether or not to have sex, whether or not to use contraception, whether or not to get pregnant, and whether or not to stay pregnant. You want to control them like some d--- rapist.