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The odd thing Justice Kennedy noticed about abortion in Texas

Fact, a born child is incapable of making a choice. ...

Fact a born child is a person with the rights of a person. Even so since young children are incapable of making medical decisions those decisions are left to the parents or the child's legal guardian.
 
Fact a born child is a person with the rights of a person. Even so since young children are incapable of making medical decisions those decisions are left to the parents or the child's legal guardian.

Do those choices include killing them?
 
Do those choices include killing them?

As I have posted before a unborn is not a person.
A born child is a person.

A fetus in not a PERSON under U.S. law.
Persons have rights under the Constitution, and it is clear that the authors of the Constitution and its amendments did not regard fetuses as persons.

In order to say that fetuses are persons under U.S. law, the Constitution would have to be amended to say so. Therefore the intentional killing of a fetus does not have same legal status as the killing of a person.

Roe v Wade - edited text
 
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As I have posted before a unborn is not a person.
A born child is a person.

Roe v Wade - edited text

As I've stated, basing your morality on the law is really just moral bankruptcy. The law has a great and time-honored tradition of classifying certain segments of society as non-persons/human.
 
No, you're not making a valid point. You've constructed a question that has a faulty premise. Question, are crime rates higher among blacks than whites? A Y/N answer is all that is required.

Yes.

Now, answer my question. Is the zef capable of making and articulating a choice? Y/N


And thank you for proving me right with the quote - I never said the zef isn't living.
 
As I have posted before a unborn is not a person.
A born child is a person.



Roe v Wade - edited text
Would you be fine with infanticide if it was made legal? Or are you only quoting the law whenever it suits your position? If you want pro lifers to be "personally pro life/politically pro choice" this isn't the way to do it.
 
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Yes.

Now, answer my question. Is the zef capable of making and articulating a choice? Y/N


And thank you for proving me right with the quote - I never said the zef isn't living.
NO.

Now answer my question. Should we be allowed to kill infants since they ain't autonomous beings? Y/N
 
In fact, the closest thing we have to anything regarding the Constitution not specifically saying something it automatically is a state matter, per the 10th Amendment. The SCOTUS basically had no standing to rule on this topic, in reality.

Except that they do since in that same Amendment the powers are given to individuals as well. The conflict they are resolving is between the citizens and the state, something many states rights people tend to overlook often in these cases.
 
NO.

Now answer my question. Should we be allowed to kill infants since they ain't autonomous beings? Y/N

As autonomous has several different meanings/implications I will answer your questions with explanation.

A fetus is not physiologically autonomous. While in the womb is completely and utterly dependent on the physiology of the mother.

Biology. a.existing and functioning as an independent organism.
Autonomous | Define Autonomous at Dictionary.com

While outside of the womb the infant is physiologically autonomous. The infant may require medical care in order to survive just like any other person, but the infant remains physiologically autonomous.

So, I do not accept you premise that an infant is not autonomous.

RvW seems to take into account that at a certain point physiological autonomy outside the womb is possible.
 
As autonomous has several different meanings/implications I will answer your questions with explanation.

A fetus is not physiologically autonomous. While in the womb is completely and utterly dependent on the physiology of the mother.


Autonomous | Define Autonomous at Dictionary.com

While outside of the womb the infant is physiologically autonomous. The infant may require medical care in order to survive just like any other person, but the infant remains physiologically autonomous.

So, I do not accept you premise that an infant is not autonomous.

RvW seems to take into account that at a certain point physiological autonomy outside the womb is possible.
I'm just going to pass up on word games today. I was using a completely different definition independent of the one you decided to use. The one I was using was on the realms of philosophy but next time I'll be more specific.
 
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As I've stated, basing your morality on the law is really just moral bankruptcy. The law has a great and time-honored tradition of classifying certain segments of society as non-persons/human.

No one, not even the law said an unborn is not human.

Blacks were always persons, women were always persons.

As far as I know only the the unborn are not persons according to the US law and our Constitution.
 
Would you be fine with infanticide if it was made legal? Or are you only quoting the law whenever it suits your position? If you want pro lifers to be "personally pro life/politically pro choice" this isn't the way to do it.

Infants are persons and have always been persons.

Would you be fine with personhood for tapeworms if that were the law?
Maybe you should post something you are interested in such as personhood for dolphins and artificial intelligent beings.
 
Yes.

Now, answer my question. Is the zef capable of making and articulating a choice? Y/N


And thank you for proving me right with the quote - I never said the zef isn't living.

No.

And your "yes" will be statistically true but doesn't take into account things like like poverty and systemic racism, ect. Just like a fetus can't articulate a choice but neither can newborns. That aside, choice is obviously being used in the context of giving an opportunity. In this context, we're talking about the opportunity for the unborn child to live and not be killed.

As far as your quote, if something doesn't have a life, then it's not alive.
 
Infants are persons and have always been persons.
Would you be fine with infanticide if it was made legal? Y/N That's a moral question not a legal question. Why dodge the question with another question?
 
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Except that they do since in that same Amendment the powers are given to individuals as well. The conflict they are resolving is between the citizens and the state, something many states rights people tend to overlook often in these cases.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.[5]"

This is not saying there is a power struggle between the people and the various states on equal footing. It's saying, "Hey, we didn't say this was a job of the federal government. That means it's automatically resolved down at the state level, if the state doesn't regulate it, then it's a personal choice."

For example, speed limits are not something that is regulated by the state. Various people don't get to decide they don't have follow them.
 
No one, not even the law said an unborn is not human.

Blacks were always persons, women were always persons.

As far as I know only the the unborn are not persons according to the US law and our Constitution.

Then you're missing something. Homicide is defined as killing another person. You can be charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman at any stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

That's at the federal level.

Then you have a whole slew of states, more supporting this same thing than any other category, with the same types of laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feticide
 
Then you're missing something. Homicide is defined as killing another person. You can be charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman at any stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

That's at the federal level.

Then you have a whole slew of states, more supporting this same thing than any other category, with the same types of laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feticide

It's pretty much inconsistency overall which is why when I debate abortion in particular, I don't hide behind the law like some here do. I so happen to be in Canada where we don't have this inconsistency like the US does. Here it's pretty much unborn humans ain't persons at all.
 
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It's pretty much inconsistency overall which is why when I debate abortion in particular, I don't hide behind the law like some here do. I so happen to be in Canada where we don't have this inconsistency like the US does.

Yup. It's inconsistent because there is no solid moral standing on the pro-choice side. Here you have a law that basically says that an unborn child is a person if another person comes and kills her and it but if that same woman had instead just killed the unborn child herself, then it's not a person.
 
Then you're missing something. Homicide is defined as killing another person. You can be charged with double homicide for killing a pregnant woman at any stage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unborn_Victims_of_Violence_Act

That's at the federal level.

Then you have a whole slew of states, more supporting this same thing than any other category, with the same types of laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetic...ea-deal-in-tampa-abortion-pill-case/2140426 .
 
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...
It is important to understand that the UVVA or state feticide laws and Roe vs Wade are not conflicting laws,

As far as I know only the the unborn are not persons according to the US law and our Constitution.

Homicide is killing another person. I showed there were a plethora of laws were killing an unborn child is homicide and therefor is defining an unborn child as a person.
 
Homicide is killing another person. I showed there were a plethora of laws were killing an unborn child is homicide and therefor is defining an unborn child as a person.

They do not define the unborn as person.


The states have an interest in the " potential person" so if a person assaults or batters a woman and the fetus dies that person can be charged with violating feticide laws.

That does not mean the " child in utero" is considered a " Constitutional person " .
Despite the seeming conflict, there are a number of reasons why feticide laws do not threaten abortion rights.

First, even though[some] fetal murder laws use the word "person," they do not confer constitutional personhood.

They confer only an artificial type of personhood, one that is not protected by the Fourteenth Amendment and that does not carry with it a "right to life." (90)

Second, feticide laws are not grounded in fetal rights; they are based on the interests of the state.

States can, and do, act to protect certain entities, even when those entities themselves have no rights.


Moreover, whereas abortion mediates between the opposing interests of the state and the woman, feticide laws pursue the same goals for both the woman and the state. In these scenarios, the state and the woman have similar interests, so the state can be more aggressive about pursuing its goals.

Finally, there is a clear difference between a pregnant woman consenting to an abortion and a nonconsensual attack on a woman that results in the loss of her pregnancy. The woman has a right to act; the attacker does not. Once we look below the surface, then, it becomes apparent that fetal legislation need not be viewed as a threat to women's rights.

The myth of fetal personhood: reconciling Roe and fetal homicide laws. - Free Online Library
 
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That wasn't the question.

Infants have always been Constitutional persons.

Manmade laws do no always follow the Constitution, if questionable the Supreme Court will examine made made laws and determine if they are or are not Constitutional.
 
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Infants have always been Constitutional persons.

Manmade laws do no always follow the Constitution, if questionable the Supreme Court will examine made made laws and determine if they are or are not Constitutional.

That wasn't the question either.
 
They do not define the unborn as person.

The states have an interest in the " potential person" so if a person assaults or batters a woman and the fetus dies that person can be charged with violating feticide laws.

Homicide is killing another person. You cannot be charged with homicide for killing a non-person. If it were only defined as feticide, you'd have standing. The problem is that it's not only defined as feticide. It's also defined as homicide and homicide is killing another person.

Homicide is killing another person. Or, to put it differently, homicide is defined as killing another person.

It's not complicated. You didn't know there were laws that defined fetuses as a person, I supplied them. Now you know.
 
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