The New Testament misinterpreting the Old Testament

[Logicman]

Oh , don't be so ridiculous. A king is not a God. This is what is written in Jeremiah 23 5-6, etc.).

Now, it is the tradition that many Jewish people have names that give a description of God.. or a trait from God. Hezekiah, for example, means God our Might, or Mighty God. Isaiah means 'God is our salvation'. Does that mean Hezehiah was God?? Nope. Does that means Isaiah is God, Nope. Nor does that mean that King will be god either.

So, I would think that you should stop being so uneducated, and you should actually try to learn something. I suspect that will happen about 10 years after the New World order has just one country in the world.

Nope. There's even Jewish rabbis who disagree with you.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - The Messiah as God

 

[RAMOSS]

Nope. There's even Jewish rabbis who disagree with you.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - The Messiah as God

Funny thing,.. the web site you gave was an evangelistic one (i.e. Christian) web site, and not a Jewish one. His Jewish quotes are, at best, out of context. It is assuming, for example, the concept of the Messiah is the same as the Christian one, which is not the case.



Why do you keep on lying like that?

 

[Somerville]

Nope. There's even Jewish rabbis who disagree with you.

Jeremiah 23:5-6 - The Messiah as God

Funny thing,.. the web site you gave was an evangelistic one (i.e. Christian) web site, and not a Jewish one. His Jewish quotes are, at best, out of context. It is assuming, for example, the concept of the Messiah is the same as the Christian one, which is not the case.



Why do you keep on lying like that?

Here's a bit of Jewish commentary on the concept of the Mashiach, for some reason it doesn't seem to agree with those "rabbis" quoted by Logicman's link

The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The word "mashiach" does not mean "savior." The notion of an innocent, divine or semi-divine being who will sacrifice himself to save us from the consequences of our own sins is a purely Christian concept that has no basis in Jewish thought. Unfortunately, this Christian concept has become so deeply ingrained in the English word "messiah" that this English word can no longer be used to refer to the Jewish concept.

The real difference between the Christian concept of the Messiah and the Jewish Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

 

[RAMOSS]

Here's a bit of Jewish commentary on the concept of the Mashiach, for some reason it doesn't seem to agree with those "rabbis" quoted by Logicman's link


The real difference between the Christian concept of the Messiah and the Jewish Mashiach

That's because the guy who wrote that web site did a lot of quote mining. In other words, things were ripped out of context to give false impression. I call that 'lying'.

 

[Somerville]

That's because the guy who wrote that web site did a lot of quote mining. In other words, things were ripped out of context to give false impression. I call that 'lying'.

Quote mining does seem to be a rather common tactic with groups that don't like dealing with reality; to wit, creationists who luv quote mining "evolutionists" and here we can read the same tactics being used by a small segment of the Christian community which really really doesn't believe the Jews know how to interpret their own text.

 

[Logicman]

Here's a bit of Jewish commentary on the concept of the Mashiach, for some reason it doesn't seem to agree with those "rabbis" quoted by Logicman's link


The real difference between the Christian concept of the Messiah and the Jewish Mashiach

Nope. Isaiah 53 is a well regarded passage known to ancient rabbis, who regard it as speaking of the Messiah:

From the JPS Jewish Bible:

But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and HaShem hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Yisheyah Chapter 53

Jesus is Lord!

 

[Logicman]

That's because the guy who wrote that web site did a lot of quote mining. In other words, things were ripped out of context to give false impression. I call that 'lying'.

Horse manure.

 

[Logicman]

Oh , don't be so ridiculous. A king is not a God. This is what is written in Jeremiah 23 5-6



Now, it is the tradition that many Jewish people have names that give a description of God.. or a trait from God. Hezekiah, for example, means God our Might, or Mighty God. Isaiah means 'God is our salvation'. Does that mean Hezehiah was God?? Nope. Does that means Isaiah is God, Nope. Nor does that mean that King will be god either.

So, I would think that you should stop being so uneducated, and you should actually try to learn something. I suspect that will happen about 10 years after the New World order has just one country in the world.

You don't know what you're talking about, Ramoss.

 

[RAMOSS]

Horse manure.

Yes, that kind of lying IS horse manure It makes you wonder why all these evangelistic types do that. I mean, it isn't like that it can't be shown very easily that that is what they are doing. They either expose themselves to either be liars or total idiots, and neither of those traits are productive for trying to convince other people of the accuracy of their religious claims. It's counter productive for getting people to believe.

 

[RAMOSS]

Nope. Isaiah 53 is a well regarded passage known to ancient rabbis, who regard it as speaking of the Messiah:

From the JPS Jewish Bible:

But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed.

6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and HaShem hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

Jewish Bible (JPS 1917) - Yisheyah Chapter 53

Jesus is Lord!

Again, this is showing a very strong ignorance about the translations. The 1917 translation was basically a copy of the KJV bible, and is not a very good translation at all. A much more accurate translation would be the translation that was completed in 1985, Another reasonable translation would be the artscroll translation that is online here, with Rashi's commentary.

In addition, that single passage you pointed to is not looking at the entire 4th servant song, but a single passage. That is what is know as 'quote mining'.. because you are taking it out of context.

 

[Excon]

Nonsense.

Yes, I know and agree that is what your posting have been.

---

Here's a bit of Jewish commentary on the concept of the Mashiach, for some reason it doesn't seem to agree with those "rabbis" quoted by Logicman's link


The real difference between the Christian concept of the Messiah and the Jewish Mashiach

He has already been told several times now by various folks over the years. :shrug:

---

Again, this is showing a very strong ignorance about the translations. The 1917 translation was basically a copy of the KJV bible, and is not a very good translation at all. A much more accurate translation would be the translation that was completed in 1985, Another reasonable translation would be the artscroll translation that is online here, with Rashi's commentary.

In addition, that single passage you pointed to is not looking at the entire 4th servant song, but a single passage. That is what is know as 'quote mining'.. because you are taking it out of context.

:applaud

You can lead a horse and their manure to water, but you can not force it to drink.
He knows. It has been continually pointed out to him since he joined. He just refuses to acknowledge and accept.

 

[Logicman]

Yes, I know and agree that is what your posting have been.

---

He has already been told several times now by various folks over the years. :shrug:

---

You can lead a horse and their manure to water, but you can not force it to drink.
He knows. It has been continually pointed out to him since he joined. He just refuses to acknowledge and accept.

Tell me something, sport - who is this individual that Daniel is talking about in Daniel 7:13-14 :

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

What's this person's name?

You know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can not force it to drink.

 

[Logicman]

Again, this is showing a very strong ignorance about the translations....

Nonsense. I don't believe you.

 

[RAMOSS]

Nonsense. I don't believe you.

You don't have to. But, the observers can look it up for themselves, and make their own choice, based on the evidence provided. Such evidence as declaring 'horse manure' and 'I don't believe you ' isn't very convincing.

 

[Logicman]

You don't have to. But, the observers can look it up for themselves, and make their own choice, based on the evidence provided. Such evidence as declaring 'horse manure' and 'I don't believe you ' isn't very convincing.

You're not convincing at all. Your theology is all backwards.

 

[RAMOSS]

You're not convincing at all. Your theology is all backwards.

Not according to God.

 

[Excon]

Tell me something, sport - who is this individual that Daniel is talking about in Daniel 7:13-14 :

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

What's this person's name?

You know, you can lead a horse to water, but you can not force it to drink.

There you go again, trying to usurp Judaisms figures, while applying your own warped reasoning.

 

[RGacky3]

You don't have to. But, the observers can look it up for themselves, and make their own choice, based on the evidence provided. Such evidence as declaring 'horse manure' and 'I don't believe you ' isn't very convincing.

I don't know why you still argue With Logicman, it's obvious the guy doesn't actually ever listen to or engage With arguments, evidence or reason.

 

[Logicman]

Logicman: Tell me something, sport - who is this individual that Daniel is talking about in Daniel 7:13-14 :

“In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshiped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

What's this person's name?

There you go again, trying to usurp Judaisms figures, while applying your own warped reasoning.

I knew it. Excon can't answer the question. He's stumped! LOL!

 

[Logicman]

I don't know why you still argue With Logicman, it's obvious the guy doesn't actually ever listen to or engage With arguments, evidence or reason.

What would you know about it? You don't even know who Jesus Christ is (God).

 

[Excon]

I knew it. Excon can't answer the question. He's stumped!

:doh
iLOL!
:lamo
Pointing out that you are again trying to usurp a Jewish figure and apply it to your own warped reasoning clearly shows I am not stumped.
But it does show that you are again showing that you know not of what you speak.

 

[CrabCake]

The real difference between the Christian concept of the Messiah and the Jewish Mashiach

I think the meaning of the term messiah is actually very well known and understood within the Christian community. Other than some of the congregants of the less scripture-oriented churches or the "by name only" Christians, I think every Christian who reads that description would recognize it and fully understand that this is the Jewish concept of the messiah. None of that would be news to most Christians.

The Christian claim has always been that God acted in the world in a totally unexpected way. The people of Israel awaited what they thought would be this great military leader who would liberate Israel, rebuild the temple, and establish a kingdom that would endure for ever. But God fulfilled that prophecy in an utterly surprising and unexpected way; not by delivering a military leader who would establish an earthly kingdom, but a spiritual leader whose kingdom was not of this world. There's a lot more that can be said about this, of course. There's a reason why the gospel of Mark takes the time to trace Jesus' lineage to the house of David and why Jesus is referred to as "the son of man", why the bible speaks of the Kingdom of God (or Kingdom of Heaven), etc. It all revolves around that central claim, God has brought us the messiah, but not in the way everyone expected; he did establish his kingdom, but it's not the kind of kingdom everyone expected, he defeated the forces of darkness, but not in the way people expected...etc.

 

[RAMOSS]

I think the meaning of the term messiah is actually very well known and understood within the Christian community. Other than some of the congregants of the less scripture-oriented churches or the "by name only" Christians, I think every Christian who reads that description would recognize it and fully understand that this is the Jewish concept of the messiah. None of that would be news to most Christians.

The Christian claim has always been that God acted in the world in a totally unexpected way. The people of Israel awaited what they thought would be this great military leader who would liberate Israel, rebuild the temple, and establish a kingdom that would endure for ever. But God fulfilled that prophecy in an utterly surprising and unexpected way; not by delivering a military leader who would establish an earthly kingdom, but a spiritual leader whose kingdom was not of this world. There's a lot more that can be said about this, of course. There's a reason why the gospel of Mark takes the time to trace Jesus' lineage to the house of David and why Jesus is referred to as "the son of man", why the bible speaks of the Kingdom of God (or Kingdom of Heaven), etc. It all revolves around that central claim, God has brought us the messiah, but not in the way everyone expected; he did establish his kingdom, but it's not the kind of kingdom everyone expected, he defeated the forces of darkness, but not in the way people expected...etc.

Well, this is the problem with that whole genealogy claim.

For someone to be of the house of David, it has to follow the biological father, from father to son, in an unbroken line to David. According to Mattehw, Jesus did not have an earthly father... So the entire genealogy is meaningless.

 

[CrabCake]

Well, this is the problem with that whole genealogy claim.

For someone to be of the house of David, it has to follow the biological father, from father to son, in an unbroken line to David. According to Mattehw, Jesus did not have an earthly father... So the entire genealogy is meaningless.

Like I said, there's a lot more that could be said about this. Among those things is the question of the genealogies. My aim isn't to expand upon all these questions and present the entire foundation of the gospel here. Rather, my aim was to point out that there's nothing about the Jewish definition of messiah Somerville provided that would come as news to any Christian. Christians will have been familiar with definitions like that since sunday school. My aim in mentioning the genealogies, the titles ("son of man"), and the concept of kingdom was just to give some hints about how the gospels speak of the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. Christianity does not ignore the Jewish messianic prophecies, rather it proposes that they have been fulfilled in a way no one had imagined or expected they would.

If the genealogies issue really interests you, this page does a pretty good job with it:
The Genealogy of the Messiah - Jews for Jesus

 

[RAMOSS]

Like I said, there's a lot more that could be said about this. Among those things is the question of the genealogies. My aim isn't to expand upon all these questions and present the entire foundation of the gospel here. Rather, my aim was to point out that there's nothing about the Jewish definition of messiah Somerville provided that would come as news to any Christian. Christians will have been familiar with definitions like that since sunday school. My aim in mentioning the genealogies, the titles ("son of man"), and the concept of kingdom was just to give some hints about how the gospels speak of the fulfillment of the messianic prophecies. Christianity does not ignore the Jewish messianic prophecies, rather it proposes that they have been fulfilled in a way no one had imagined or expected they would.

If the genealogies issue really interests you, this page does a pretty good job with it:
The Genealogy of the Messiah - Jews for Jesus

Oh god, not the Jews for Jesus site. They are horrendously bad, liars, and use forgeries to try to convert Jews to Christianity. Sorry, but anything they write or claim would not have any value to the Jewish conception of the Messiah. Their excuses don't properly address the Jewish law or concerns, except to hand wave it away.