The Exodus motif and the name Brigham Young

[Moot]

I googled the pic, it is from an anti-mormon group....not exactly an unbiased source. Lamanites were not considered blacks, in fact, only African blacks were excluded.

The LDS Sao Paulo temple website validates the story...but then the LDS aren't exactly unbiased, either.....and neither are you

South Pacific blacks were not excluded, neither were other races of dark color.

Never said they were.

I am not defending Brigham Young, nor does he defend himself. He once said that his greatest fear is that the saints would take everything he says as gospel truth. So even he realized that he isn't perfect.

For someone who claims not to defend Brigham Young it sure looks like you are.

... I was raised baptist in east texas, and converted at age 21.....and the blacks/priesthood issue was a concern for me at the time. I judge a person's religious conviction by what good comes from it, not so much the mistakes of it's leaders 150 years ago.
The Catholics were once capable of much evil, but no longer. Now they and the LDS work together to get food to starving people. The LDS have the goods, the Catholics have the distribution networks. It appears you were raised LDS and didn't much care for it. What religion did you convert to?

And still, Brigham Young is not and has never been a bridge from bondage to God. In fact, considering that he ordered the massacre at Mountain Meadows and other 'blood atonements' he is quite the opposite.

 

[Moot]

it is a far cry from one dental bridge to a handful of fillings.....propaganda from hate groups is often easily exposed.

The only who has openly displayed any hate here is you.....and over something you knew nothing about. Sure glad I'm not like you.

 

[Cryptic]

The Catholics were once capable of much evil, but no longer.

In proportion to the length of their history and their numbers, Catholics have never been more, or less inclined towards evil than Mormons.

Speaking of bondage, remind us what Brigham Young had to say about blacks?

He probably said alot about them- and none of it good.

That aside, Young should be judged from standards 1880s, rather than by the standards of select portions of the world today. As anothr poster mentioned, racist beliefs (both codified ala Mormons and hindus), and un codified ala many Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Confucians were common amongst many people and amongst many religions.

In the end, Young's application of his rascist beliefs (evidently a refusal to fully accept them into the Mormon religion) was pretty mild by standards of the day.

 

[tosca1]

ever read about the Kings and prophets of the OT? they did some pretty bad things....

Like, who? And how?


Kings and Prophets in the OT were given specific orders by God, if you refer to slaughters.

Keep in mind too that OT is different from NT. The OT was mostly focused on the Jews - they were specially chosen as God's people. There's also the Davidic Covenant.


Davidic Covenant

The Davidic Covenant (2 Samuel 7) is an unconditional covenant. God established certain unconditional covenants with Israel, such as the Noahic and Abrahamic covenants. God, alone, is the only One who is able to fulfill such promises.



In the New Testament - the prophets were from here on, specifically tasked with spreading the Word, and continuing the works of Christ. Thus we have prophets now in pulpits teaching the gospel as taught by Christ.

 

[laska]

How do we know who is a real prophet? Anyone can claim, "I am a prophet."
How do we know a real prophet from a delusional, or a scam?

As the Bible and Book of Mormon teaches, through prayer and God revealing it to you. I've made that point several times, are you not reading my posts?

 

[laska]

True, God-appointed prophets are people like us as they live their everyday lives.

HOWEVER, when they speak before the people about God.....they wouldn't be flawed, since it would be the Spirit that puts the Words in their mouths.

The Words are merely tumbling out of their mouths - because they're all coming from God.
At least that's how it is, according to Jesus.


Furthermore, their everyday lives will reflect what they preach.
They wouldn't say stupid or hurtful words - especially things about an innocent human being. At least, that's how it was with the God-appointed Biblical prophets.

You can go to lds.org and read the words of living prophet and apostles of today, and they will sound like the NT apostles and prophets. They all testify of Christ, and you will feel the same spirit. Like 99.9% of the words from prophets like Joseph Smith and Brigham Yound are the same, but anti-Mormons search non canonized writings and pick out the .01%, usually taken out of context, to try and make them look bad to their audience.

 

[laska]

How do we know who is a real prophet? Anyone can claim, "I am a prophet."
How do we know a real prophet from a delusional, or a scam?

Mathew 16:17
13 ¶When Jesus came into the coasts of Cæsarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Promise at the end of the Book of Mormon:

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

6 And whatsoever thing is good is just and true; wherefore, nothing that is good denieth the Christ, but acknowledgeth that he is.

7 And ye may know that he is, by the power of the Holy Ghost; wherefore I would exhort you that ye deny not the power of God; for he worketh by power, according to the faith of the children of men, the same today and tomorrow, and forever.

 

[laska]

Tosca, the point I made in the other thread. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints asks you to pray to God and ask Him whether or not it is the true church. This is the methodology taught in the Bible to discern between false and true prophets. Obviously false prophets/religious leaders will not want you to pray. Test your minister and ask him if you should pray about the Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

 

[laska]

This is the Bible verse that inspired the 14 yo Joseph to go into the woods and ask God what church is the true one. He had never thought of the possibility that all of them were wrong.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5-6

If all people did this, there wouldn't be thousands of different sects and the myriads of false religious leaders such as the evangelical televangelists, etc, that hold so much power over so many people, causing them to reject the Lord's true, authorized church.

I realize Tosca you do not tend to read my links as you make accusations constantly that are answerd in them, that is why I do not respond to many of your posts. If you haven't read Joseph Smith's account of the first vision, it is a must read if you want to understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/js?lang=eng

 

[tosca1]

Prophets are human. Like all humans, they are imperfect, subject to sin and error.

Moses and David were murderers. David was an adulterer as well.

Consider Jonah. God told Jonah to go to Nineveh, and tell them to straighten up or else God was going to have to go down there and kick their asses. So what did Jonah do? He caught the first ship he could in the opposite direction, trying to get as far from Nineveh as he could. God had to resort to some rather extraordinary means to get Jonah to go to Nineveh. When Jonah got there, he didn't deliver the message correctly. He just told the Ninevans that God was going to kick their asses. He somehow forgot the “Repent or else…” part of the message. He then staked out a place with a good view, and sat down with a big tub of popcorn and a 32-ounce Diet Coke, and waited for what he expected to be the greatest show since Sodom and Gomorrah.

Meanwhile, down in Nineveh, in spite of Jonah's error, the people got it. They repented, and so Jonah was greatly disappointed and angry when he didn't get to see God kick their asses. The last chapter of Jonah's story is about God trying to explain to Jonah where he went wrong.

Was Jonah a prophet of God, or wasn't he?

Moses murdered an Egyptian BEFORE he became a prophet.
Later however, he disobeyed God, and as a result he didn't get to enter the Promised land.


David suffered painful events as a result of his sin regarding Bathsheba and Uriah. His son with Bathsheba died. Then, David's daughter Tamar was raped by her half-brother, Amnon. Because of that rape, his other son Absalom killed Amnon. Later, Absalom rebelled against David and temporarily took the throne, and slept with David's concubines on the very same roof of the palace from where David first saw Bathsheba.


As for Jonah....look what happened when he disobeyed God. I don't think we can say that he didn't deliver the message "correctly" since there was no specific instructions on what message was to be said. This was God's instructions:

Jonah 1
2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me.”


Jonah 3
3 Then the word of the Lord came to Jonah a second time:
2 “Go to the great city of Nineveh and proclaim to it the message I give you.”
3 Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord and went to Nineveh. Now Nineveh was a very large city; it took three days to go through it.
4 Jonah began by going a day’s journey into the city, proclaiming, “Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

"Proclaim to it the message I GIVE you." GIVE - not GAVE.


It says that Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord. What tumbled out of Jonah were the words of God.
“Forty more days and Nineveh will be overthrown.”

Clearly, God didn't instruct him to tell them to repent. Because God had already decided to take out Nineveh!
He just wanted the people of Nineveh to know what He'll do.

However, the people repented anyway! They did it thoroughly, too. That's why God did not pursue what He initially meant to do. Check out the last statement.

Jonah 3
5 The Ninevites believed God. A fast was proclaimed, and all of them, from the greatest to the least, put on sackcloth.

6 When Jonah’s warning reached the king of Nineveh, he rose from his throne, took off his royal robes, covered himself with sackcloth and sat down in the dust. 7 This is the proclamation he issued in Nineveh:


“By the decree of the king and his nobles:

Do not let people or animals, herds or flocks, taste anything; do not let them eat or drink. 8 But let people and animals be covered with sackcloth. Let everyone call urgently on God. Let them give up their evil ways and their violence. 9 Who knows? God may yet relent and with compassion turn from his fierce anger so that we will not perish.”

10 When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened.


He RELENTED. That's the key word.


Yes, they are prophets - Jonah, too. As you see in the OT prophets/kings got severely punished, or they paid a price as the result of sin or disobedience. God speaks THROUGH the prophets when He wants to tell the people something. Like I've said, the OT is mostly about the Jews. It's the history of their relationship with God being given to us to learn from it.

--------------------------------------

Anyway, all those happened before Jesus Christ came to teach us. Our instructions from God is clear:


Matthew 17:5
While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!"

Therefore, we go by the teachings and explanations of Jesus Christ.

 

[UtahBill]

The LDS Sao Paulo temple website validates the story...but then the LDS aren't exactly unbiased, either.....and neither are you



Never said they were.

For someone who claims not to defend Brigham Young it sure looks like you are.


And still, Brigham Young is not and has never been a bridge from bondage to God. In fact, considering that he ordered the massacre at Mountain Meadows and other 'blood atonements' he is quite the opposite.

he ordered the massacre? BULL....
the dental work was ONE person, not lots of them giving up their fillings....the pic misrepresents what happened...but an antimormon site couldn't be biased, right?

 

[tosca1]

As the Bible and Book of Mormon teaches, through prayer and God revealing it to you. I've made that point several times, are you not reading my posts?

Let's talk about the Bible - especially the NT - since that's the foundation of CHRISTIANITY!

What does it say in the Bible? How do we know the real from the false prophets?

What does the Bible say about the prophecies that come from God - how do we know they are from God?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

As for Jonah....look what happened when he disobeyed God. I don't think we can say that he didn't deliver the message "correctly" since there was no specific instructions on what message was to be said. This was God's instructions:

·
·
·​

It says that Jonah obeyed the word of the Lord. What tumbled out of Jonah were the words of God.

·
·
·​

Clearly, God didn't instruct him to tell them to repent. Because God had already decided to take out Nineveh!
He just wanted the people of Nineveh to know what He'll do.

However, the people repented anyway! They did it thoroughly, too. That's why God did not pursue what He initially meant to do. Check out the last statement.

Do you really think that what happened was not what God intended of expected? Do you really believe that it was God's intention to simply wipe out Nineveh, without giving the inhabitants a chance to straighten up? That's what Jonah thought, and Jonah was wrong.

In any event, Jonah, in his capacity as a prophet, predicted something that did not happen. He said that God was going to wipe out Nineveh, and God did not wipe out Nineveh. Was Jonah a true prophet, or a false prophet?

 

[laska]

Let's talk about the Bible - especially the NT - since that's the foundation of CHRISTIANITY!

What does it say in the Bible? How do we know the real from the false prophets?

What does the Bible say about the prophecies that come from God - how do we know they are from God?

In the other thread you gave your interpretation of the Bible to support the treatment of the Mormons in Missouri as evidence Joseph Smith was a false prophet yet Christ and his disciples were treated similarly or worse. Does the early Christians being fed to the lions by Rome constitute that they were false prophets? In another gem, you state you wont read the links to articles that answer you criticisms because you do not want to be indoctrinated. So you read and post what the enemies of Mormons state about the religion, without even checking their sources, which Bob called you on, yet you won't read the responses of these criticisms from LDS authors. Do you realize how ignorant that is? That is why I do not enjoy debating you and ignore giving responses to many of your posts. Many are absurd and full of hypocrisy and not worth responses.

 

[Moot]

In proportion to the length of their history and their numbers, Catholics have never been more, or less inclined towards evil than Mormons.



He probably said alot about them- and none of it good.

That aside, Young should be judged from standards 1880s, rather than by the standards of select portions of the world today. As anothr poster mentioned, racist beliefs (both codified ala Mormons and hindus), and un codified ala many Christians, Muslims, Buddhists and Confucians were common amongst many people and amongst many religions.

In the end, Young's application of his rascist beliefs (evidently a refusal to fully accept them into the Mormon religion) was pretty mild by standards of the day.

I mentioned earlier that Joseph Smith, the first prophet and founder of the LDS church accepted blacks into the priesthood. If we can judge that Joseph Smith wasn't a racist by 1880 standards, then why can't we judge that Brigham Young was?

Brigham Young's teachings about Cain weren't questioned for the next hundred years...not even during the Civil Rights movement. It wasn't until 1978 when the Mormons wanted to expand their empire into S. America that the quorum conveniently had a revelation to allow blacks into the priesthood.

 

[Moot]

he ordered the massacre? BULL....
the dental work was ONE person, not lots of them giving up their fillings....the pic misrepresents what happened...but an antimormon site couldn't be biased, right?

First you said it didn't happen...you were wrong.

Then you said it came from a biased source.....you were wrong again.

Now you're saying it was only one person......would you like to bet on it this time?

 

[tosca1]

Do you really think that what happened was not what God intended of expected? Do you really believe that it was God's intention to simply wipe out Nineveh, without giving the inhabitants a chance to straighten up? That's what Jonah thought, and Jonah was wrong.

In any event, Jonah, in his capacity as a prophet, predicted something that did not happen. He said that God was going to wipe out Nineveh, and God did not wipe out Nineveh. Was Jonah a true prophet, or a false prophet?

The point is: GOD told the people HIS EXACT MESSAGE - through Jonah.

Being an All-Knowing God, of course He already knew it would turn out just the way it did like He already knew
even then everything that will happen to the Messiah, everything that will happen after the Messiah, everything that's happening now, and in the future, etc..,

He already knew how Jonah will react to it - when He didn't destroy Nineveh after all. For all we know, the whole lesson was probably actually meant for Jonah!

As we learn from the OLD TESTAMENT, punishment were meted for disobedience.
Why was Moses denied entry to the Promised Land? Because he deviated from the instructions of God - he struck the rock twice instead of speaking to the rock as God had told him to.



IN THE NEW TESTAMENT - GOD HAD MADE ANOTHER COVENANT WITH MANKIND.

New Covenant (Jeremiah 31:31-34). The New Covenant is a covenant made first with the nation of Israel and, ultimately, with all mankind. In the New Covenant, God promises to forgive sin, and there will be a universal knowledge of the Lord. Jesus Christ came to fulfill the Law of Moses (Matthew 5:17) and create a new covenant between God and His people. Now that we are under the New Covenant, both Jews and Gentiles can be free from the penalty of the Law. We are now given the opportunity to receive salvation as a free gift (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Read more: What are the covenants in the Bible?



GOD'S INSTRUCTION FOR ALL OF US IS CLEAR:

LISTEN TO HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, JESUS CHRIST.

 

[tosca1]

Obviously false prophets/religious leaders will not want you to pray. Test your minister and ask him if you should pray about the Book of Mormon and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Where in the Bible is it specified that false prophets/religious leaders will not want you to pray? Cite the verses please.

Furthermore, How do you know that the "answer" to your prayer actually came from God, and not just another trick by Satan to deceive you? Because that happens sometimes.

Most Christians (practicing Christians) know how to tell the difference. I want to know if you do....

 

[tosca1]

This is the Bible verse that inspired the 14 yo Joseph to go into the woods and ask God what church is the true one. He had never thought of the possibility that all of them were wrong.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5-6

If all people did this, there wouldn't be thousands of different sects and the myriads of false religious leaders such as the evangelical televangelists, etc, that hold so much power over so many people, causing them to reject the Lord's true, authorized church.

I realize Tosca you do not tend to read my links as you make accusations constantly that are answerd in them, that is why I do not respond to many of your posts. If you haven't read Joseph Smith's account of the first vision, it is a must read if you want to understand The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/js?lang=eng

No I don't read your link. I click on it and the page does not specifically deal with our issue. When I see that, I just move on. You want me to sift through it. Sorry, but that is a clear sign that you've got nothing specific to give, or to cite.

Like I said, at least give the paragraph that deals with our particular issue.

 

[tosca1]

This is the Bible verse that inspired the 14 yo Joseph to go into the woods and ask God what church is the true one. He had never thought of the possibility that all of them were wrong.

5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5-6

That's only part of knowing if the "wisdom" was coming from God.

If all people did this, there wouldn't be thousands of different sects and the myriads of false religious leaders such as the evangelical televangelists, etc, that hold so much power over so many people, causing them to reject the Lord's true, authorized church.

What makes you think those others who started different sects didn't pray?
So many of them claimed to have been "inspired by God."

1 John 4:1
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.


So tell me, how can we differentiate the false from the truth?

 

[laska]

Where in the Bible is it specified that false prophets/religious leaders will not want you to pray? Cite the verses please.

Furthermore, How do you know that the "answer" to your prayer actually came from God, and not just another trick by Satan to deceive you? Because that happens sometimes.

Most Christians (practicing Christians) know how to tell the difference. I want to know if you do....

It is common sense that can be inferred by using basic logic. If the Bible teachers you to pray and that revelation is the rock on determining a true prophet, the false religious teachers, the "wolves in sheep's clothing" ie people who will claim to be the real Christians will teach the opposite, especially when it comes to praying for the true prophet and Church. Sharing personal revelation from God on a public forum is not something I feel comfortable with. If you know how not to be deceived, why do you have such a seeming problem of praying whether the Book of Mormon is true. And if most practicing "Christians" as you say know the difference, why would you not want them to pray about it.

 

[tosca1]

In the other thread you gave your interpretation of the Bible to support the treatment of the Mormons in Missouri as evidence Joseph Smith was a false prophet yet Christ and his disciples were treated similarly or worse.

There is no comparison between Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ.

For one thing THE PROPHECIES OF JESUS CAME TRUE. He warned us about the persecution Christians will face, and that's still very true to this day!

On the other hand, Joseph Smith made several clear Missouri prophecies, but not only did they not come true, but they afflicted his followers instead!


Let me try illustrate again the point I'm trying to make:

Jeremiah 14
14 And the Lord said to me: “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.

15 Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who prophesy in my name although I did not send them, and who say, ‘Sword and famine shall not come upon this land’: By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed.

16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem, victims of famine and sword, with none to bury them—them, their wives, their sons, and their daughters. For I will pour out their evil upon them.



And here are the fulfillments of Smith's prophecies:

FULFILLMENT: Mormons were driven out of Independence and from all of their settlements in Missouri in 1839. The temple lot is not owned by the Mormon church. No one living in the generation when the prophecy was made is still alive.

FULFILLMENT: The Mormons lost all their lands in Missouri; they did seek legal redress but were unsuccessful; their enemies were not destroyed; their wrongs were not avenged; the Mormons were driven out of Missouri.

FULFILLMENT: Zion's Camp was organized but utterly failed and it disbanded in July. Cholera decimated them and the campaign did not restore the saints to their homes.


I can't help but compare the results of the Missouri Prophesies with the warnings from Jeremiah 14.
The results were stark contrasts from what he prophesied.

The way I interpret what happened to the followers of Smith was that.....God was showing them in unmistakeable and very serious ways that the prophecies did not come from Him.

 

[laska]

There is no comparison between Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ.

For one thing THE PROPHECIES OF JESUS CAME TRUE. He warned us about the persecution Christians will face, and that's still very true to this day!

On the other hand, Joseph Smith made several clear Missouri prophecies, but not only did they not come true, but they afflicted his followers instead!


Let me try illustrate again the point I'm trying to make:

Jeremiah 14
14 And the Lord said to me: “The prophets are prophesying lies in my name. I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.

15 Therefore thus says the Lord concerning the prophets who prophesy in my name although I did not send them, and who say, ‘Sword and famine shall not come upon this land’: By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed.

16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem, victims of famine and sword, with none to bury them—them, their wives, their sons, and their daughters. For I will pour out their evil upon them.



And here are the fulfillments of Smith's prophecies:

FULFILLMENT: Mormons were driven out of Independence and from all of their settlements in Missouri in 1839. The temple lot is not owned by the Mormon church. No one living in the generation when the prophecy was made is still alive.

FULFILLMENT: The Mormons lost all their lands in Missouri; they did seek legal redress but were unsuccessful; their enemies were not destroyed; their wrongs were not avenged; the Mormons were driven out of Missouri.

FULFILLMENT: Zion's Camp was organized but utterly failed and it disbanded in July. Cholera decimated them and the campaign did not restore the saints to their homes.


I can't help but compare the results with the warnings from Jeremiah 14.

Why don't you read the material in the link, which answers your criticisms and gives truly remarkable prophecies that have been fulfilled of Joseph Smith, whether you can admit it or not. Name prophecies anywhere, that can be verified, that are more impressive than the civil War prophecy and the Stephen A. Douglas prophecy.

LDS FAQ: Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet

 

[tosca1]

It is common sense that can be inferred by using basic logic.

Well.....the results of the Missouri Prophecies and Jeremiah 14 - as indicated in the illustrations above - is pure common sense.

If the Bible teachers you to pray and that revelation is the rock on determining a true prophet, the false religious teachers, the "wolves in sheep's clothing" ie people who will claim to be the real Christians will teach the opposite, especially when it comes to praying for the true prophet and Church. Sharing personal revelation from God on a public forum is not something I feel comfortable with. If you know how not to be deceived, why do you have such a seeming problem of praying whether the Book of Mormon is true. And if most practicing "Christians" as you say know the difference, why would you not want them to pray about it.

:doh

Where did I say that they shouldn't pray????

Will you re-read what I'd said.

 

[laska]

The Bible states the "testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy". Where are your ministers prophecies? Show me anything that is a tenth as impressive as Joseph Smith? And quoting the Bible prophecies are meaningless as the LDS believe in the Bible, and are Christians. What the LDS believe is that after the apostles are killd in the NT, there was no longer any priesthood authority. So name your religious leaders prophecies and let's compare.