Should prayers be vocalized?

[Goshin]

isn't Christ that 1/2 Jewish guy with a Mexican name that died on the cross for the sins that all of all of you sinners like to commit?

Moderator's Warning:

Not appropriate for the Religion forum. Respectful discussion and all that...

 

[Canell]

It is in humbling yourself before God which is the reason you must ask for what he already knows...

So the prayer is something like a humble test?

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Hey ya,

I was just wondering, should prayers be vocalized or it is enough just to pray in your mind/heart?

When I was a kid, my Dad (a minister) did it loud and proud when we were in public.

"Dear God, we are gathered here today, as a family" (In McDonald's - hands clasped, eyes down) "And we call upon you, Lord, for your blessing. Dear God, please bless this food, and our family as we travel. . . Amen"

And then we'd all have to say "Amen."

I was a shy kid - and everything in my family put us in the spotlight. People wondered why I didn't like any of it.

 

[ChezC3]

When I was a kid, my Dad (a minister) did it loud and proud when we were in public.

"Dear God, we are gathered here today, as a family" (In McDonald's - hands clasped, eyes down) "And we call upon you, Lord, for your blessing. Dear God, please bless this food, and our family as we travel. . . Amen"

And then we'd all have to say "Amen."

I was a shy kid - and everything in my family put us in the spotlight. People wondered why I didn't like any of it.

My particular favorite prayer in public is "Good Bread, Good Meat, Good Lord, Let's EAT!!"

 

[vasuderatorrent]

When I was a kid, my Dad (a minister) did it loud and proud when we were in public.

"Dear God, we are gathered here today, as a family" (In McDonald's - hands clasped, eyes down) "And we call upon you, Lord, for your blessing. Dear God, please bless this food, and our family as we travel. . . Amen"

And then we'd all have to say "Amen."

I was a shy kid - and everything in my family put us in the spotlight. People wondered why I didn't like any of it.

That must have sucked.

vasuderatorrent

 

[ChezC3]

So the prayer is something like a humble test?

No, it isn't a test.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

For the most part, Ásatrúar pray loud; it shows forthrightness and confidence. I've been to silent offerings before, and always found them strange.

 

[Hypersonic]

Catholics don't pray to Saints, they ask them for their intercession. Like you'd ask your friend or Pastor to pray with/for you. The Saints are alive in Christ, remember...

Yet Muslims say nobody can intercede between man and God. Jews say the same thing. If I were a believer in the Abrahamic faith, I would think no saint from some desert who I never met could intercede on my behalf.

 

[Hypersonic]

In addition to intercession, all saints do is play lawyer on behalf of humans. A saint who God listened on my behalf only demonstrates that God stopped listening to me.

 

[ChezC3]

Yet Muslims say nobody can intercede between man and God. Jews say the same thing. If I were a believer in the Abrahamic faith, I would think no saint from some desert who I never met could intercede on my behalf.

Some would say they are wrong, besides we weren't talking about Jews or Muslims. Also Jews at one time needed the Priest, who was the only one allowed to go into the Holiest of Holies, to intercede for the Jews, it was through Jesus in his crucifixion that the curtain was torn and no intercession was necessary. It isn't necessary in Catholicism only available and encouraged.

 

[tosca1]

So the prayer is something like a humble test?

It is a show of humility. The acknowledgement that you rely on Him....and humbly accepting His will, whatever they may be.

 

[tosca1]

I don't think it matters. When you pray you are conciously communicating with God. At all other times you are unconciously communicating with God through your thoucghts and deeds. These unconcious communications often speak much louder.

Can you give an example as to how you unconsciously communicate with God? I'm just wondering.

Another purpose for prayer is glorifying Him as God. The blueprint for the prayer would be the Lord's Prayer given by Jesus - it has all the needed ingredients.

 

[rjay]

Can you give an example as to how you unconsciously communicate with God? I'm just wondering.

I gossip about a neighbor, steal from a store, say one thing, but act differently if no one is around. These represent the real you - and you are unconciously communicating the real you to God. Scarey huh?

 

[nota bene]

I gossip about a neighbor, steal from a store, say one thing, but act differently if no one is around. These represent the real you - and you are unconciously communicating the real you to God. Scarey huh?

If you gossip, steal, or are a poseur, they do.

 

[Hypersonic]

Some would say they are wrong, besides we weren't talking about Jews or Muslims. Also Jews at one time needed the Priest, who was the only one allowed to go into the Holiest of Holies, to intercede for the Jews, it was through Jesus in his crucifixion that the curtain was torn and no intercession was necessary. It isn't necessary in Catholicism only available and encouraged.

I know you (since I was responding to someone else) didn't mention Jews or Muslims however and I think Moses Maimonides would agree, Islam and Judaism compared to Christianity, are strict monotheistic faiths. Only God can redeem the individual not saints, priests, rabbis, Imams, Alims, whatever....


You mention Jews at one time needed priests, well I'd like to see evidence of that.

 

[ChezC3]

I know you (since I was responding to someone else) didn't mention Jews or Muslims however and I think Moses Maimonides would agree, Islam and Judaism compared to Christianity, are strict monotheistic faiths. Only God can redeem the individual not saints, priests, rabbis, Imams, Alims, whatever....


You mention Jews at one time needed priests, well I'd like to see evidence of that.

You quoted me, but you weren't responding to me?

I would love a conversation on the different interpretations of monotheism, you say stricter, some would say simpler. Islam views Jesus(Isa) for all intents and purposes the exact way Christians do with the exception of his divinity. Jews deny Christ as anything but a charlatan.

Kitab at tawhid by Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab(yes as in wahhabiism) is probably the best book on Islamic monotheism written. For the "pure" monotheist. However, the trinitarian view layed out by Tertullian really outside of word choice isn't any different than the 99 Names of Allah as recorded in Sahih al Muslim (3rd in line as far as hadiths go but one of the most reliable, "sahih" denoting this). See Muslims don't like the anthropomorphic attributions that Jesus, and Christianity give to God. Which is quite confusing given that they view Isa, Jesus as a messanger and Prophet) I find it funny, that anything that they disagree with is simply cast aside as "a corruption", a misunderstanding, or an innovation. I find it funny that they agree and believe in the Injil, which is the gospel of Jesus, which they don't happen to have a copy of handy. Instead they say the Biblical gospels, I'm thinking the synoptic gospels primarily are a "distortion" of the Injil. I'm simplifying all of this you understand as I don't know how well versed you are on these matters so some of what I wrote is the general gist more so than say, a word for word recreation of their beliefs.

Christianity, that is Catholicism doesn't believe that anyone else can redeem you either other than God, Jesus, as Son in the trinitarian view IS God. The rest are intercessions. The common protester argument is that these are not needed and that they should not be done. I say, fine, don't but then don't ask your Pastor, or your friends at Men's group, or anyone else you know to pray for you either. IT IS THE SAME THING. The difference being in the communion of Saint the Saints that are asked to intercede are believed to already be IN THE PRESENCE of God. Who better to pray for you than the individuals sitting in front of the Big Guy, eh?

To your final sentence the evidence is readily available here: The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

 

[tosca1]

The difference being in the communion of Saint the Saints that are asked to intercede are believed to already be IN THE PRESENCE of God. Who better to pray for you than the individuals sitting in front of the Big Guy, eh?

Nobody has risen yet and gone to the presence of God...except for the prophet Elijah, I think. The resurrection of the dead will happen when Jesus returns to earth.

The Resurrection of the Dead: What Does the Bible Really Teach? - Good News Magazine | United Church of God

 

[Hypersonic]

You quoted me, but you weren't responding to me?

I would love a conversation on the different interpretations of monotheism, you say stricter, some would say simpler. Islam views Jesus(Isa) for all intents and purposes the exact way Christians do with the exception of his divinity. Jews deny Christ as anything but a charlatan.

Kitab at tawhid by Muhammad ibn Abd al Wahhab(yes as in wahhabiism) is probably the best book on Islamic monotheism written. For the "pure" monotheist. However, the trinitarian view layed out by Tertullian really outside of word choice isn't any different than the 99 Names of Allah as recorded in Sahih al Muslim (3rd in line as far as hadiths go but one of the most reliable, "sahih" denoting this). See Muslims don't like the anthropomorphic attributions that Jesus, and Christianity give to God. Which is quite confusing given that they view Isa, Jesus as a messanger and Prophet) I find it funny, that anything that they disagree with is simply cast aside as "a corruption", a misunderstanding, or an innovation. I find it funny that they agree and believe in the Injil, which is the gospel of Jesus, which they don't happen to have a copy of handy. Instead they say the Biblical gospels, I'm thinking the synoptic gospels primarily are a "distortion" of the Injil. I'm simplifying all of this you understand as I don't know how well versed you are on these matters so some of what I wrote is the general gist more so than say, a word for word recreation of their beliefs.

Christianity, that is Catholicism doesn't believe that anyone else can redeem you either other than God, Jesus, as Son in the trinitarian view IS God. The rest are intercessions. The common protester argument is that these are not needed and that they should not be done. I say, fine, don't but then don't ask your Pastor, or your friends at Men's group, or anyone else you know to pray for you either. IT IS THE SAME THING. The difference being in the communion of Saint the Saints that are asked to intercede are believed to already be IN THE PRESENCE of God. Who better to pray for you than the individuals sitting in front of the Big Guy, eh?

To your final sentence the evidence is readily available here: The Complete Tanach with Rashi's Commentary - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible

Sorry then I guess I was quoting you..

See bold

Jews do not believe in the anthropomorphic view of Jesus as well, (of course they don't believe Jesus existed at all, at least most Jews don't), so you'd be hard pressed to convince any Jew or Muslim that Jesus came in human form. Even Maimonides (whom Jews revere as a scholar of Judaism) believe if a Jew entered a land with no Synagouge that a mosque would suffice as a place of prayer towards God because, as Maimonides stated, "idolatry is not in the hearts of Mohammadens."

 

[ChezC3]

Sorry then I guess I was quoting you..

See bold

Jews do not believe in the anthropomorphic view of Jesus as well, (of course they don't believe Jesus existed at all, at least most Jews don't), so you'd be hard pressed to convince any Jew or Muslim that Jesus came in human form. Even Maimonides (whom Jews revere as a scholar of Judaism) believe if a Jew entered a land with no Synagouge that a mosque would suffice as a place of prayer towards God because, as Maimonides stated, "idolatry is not in the hearts of Mohammadens."

Well, that's not entirely true there is evidence in the Talmud of the not so polite view in which they look upon Jesus, and Mary for that matter. As to be hard pressed that Jesus came in human form coming from a Muslim, this is patently false. Again, Jesus was a prophet and a Messenger, like that unto Muhammad, he simply in their view was not the Son of God, or God himself. He is is viewed as the Messiah, OF THE JEWS. (critical point)The believe he tricked the Jews and snuck out the back door so to speak and put someone else up on the cross in his stead, thereby denying the Passion, and Resurrection. Actually, quite interesting there are some that would tell you Jesus is buried in some house in Afghanistan, if you can believe that. But to say that they believe he didn't existed goes against everything INCLUDING THE QURAN.

Rambam was highly regarded in all 3 Abrahamic Faiths, he and Al Ghazali both are credited with influencing Thomas Aquinas. Al Ghazalis is also a known influence of Rambam. This isn't to say that he (rambam, al ghazali, or aquinas for that matter)is the end all be all of medieval theologians and/or philosophers, that what he says is, for give the pun, gospel.

This isn't also to say that he can't be mistaken. I'm assuming what you're getting at is Rambam thinks that Christians are idolators. Which is ridiculously simple-minded in view and absurd to say the least.

 

[Hypersonic]

Well, that's not entirely true there is evidence in the Talmud of the not so polite view in which they look upon Jesus, and Mary for that matter. As to be hard pressed that Jesus came in human form coming from a Muslim, this is patently false. Again, Jesus was a prophet and a Messenger, like that unto Muhammad, he simply in their view was not the Son of God, or God himself. He is is viewed as the Messiah, OF THE JEWS. (critical point)The believe he tricked the Jews and snuck out the back door so to speak and put someone else up on the cross in his stead, thereby denying the Passion, and Resurrection. Actually, quite interesting there are some that would tell you Jesus is buried in some house in Afghanistan, if you can believe that. But to say that they believe he didn't existed goes against everything INCLUDING THE QURAN.

Rambam was highly regarded in all 3 Abrahamic Faiths, he and Al Ghazali both are credited with influencing Thomas Aquinas. Al Ghazalis is also a known influence of Rambam. This isn't to say that he (rambam, al ghazali, or aquinas for that matter)is the end all be all of medieval theologians and/or philosophers, that what he says is, for give the pun, gospel.

This isn't also to say that he can't be mistaken. I'm assuming what you're getting at is Rambam thinks that Christians are idolators. Which is ridiculously simple-minded in view and absurd to say the least.

To your vey last sentence yes. Funny, in ungrad (philosophy was my second major) I proved that using the illogical proof of the trinity using Peter Abelard's notion of the trinity.

Now regarding Jesus and the philosophers notion of him, don't get me wrong Jesus' philosophy is a rebellious one for his time in the Roman Empire, but most Jews and Muslims agree , regarding his divinity, that is a mistaken thought by Christians.

 

[ChezC3]

Nobody has risen yet and gone to the presence of God...except for the prophet Elijah, I think. The resurrection of the dead will happen when Jesus returns to earth.

The Resurrection of the Dead: What Does the Bible Really Teach? - Good News Magazine | United Church of God

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Communion of Saints

 

[ChezC3]

To your vey last sentence yes. Funny, in ungrad (philosophy was my second major) I proved that using the illogical proof of the trinity using Peter Abelard's notion of the trinity.

Now regarding Jesus and the philosophers notion of him, don't get me wrong Jesus' philosophy is a rebellious one for his time in the Roman Empire, but most Jews and Muslims agree , regarding his divinity, that is a mistaken thought by Christians.

Have you read Tertullian?

Oh, I'm not arguing that the Jews or Muslims find Jesus as divine, not in the slightest.

You're not the only one to put Mssr. Petey in his place, the Council of Soissons had him burn his book on the Trinity in 1121...

 

[Ikari]

Hey ya,

I was just wondering, should prayers be vocalized or it is enough just to pray in your mind/heart?

Should I care one way or the other? Freedom of religion and religious expression covers this.

 

[tosca1]

Catechism of the Catholic Church - The Communion of Saints

Can you please expand.

 

[ChezC3]

Can you please expand.

Did you read the link? If so, did you follow up on the footnotes? If so, what precisely would you like me to expand on? (Not being snarky, just unclear on what's unclear)