Should Churches Display National Flags?

[spud_meister]

I find it hard to imagine how an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being is in any way de-glorified by a thin piece of cloth tied to a metal stick.

He's a pretty jealous kinda guy.

 

[RGacky3]

I think the OP is 100% right, theologically national flags and nationalism have no place in real christianity as understood by the new testiment, no only does it go against actual passages of the NT, it goes against the entire spirit of the christian message.

It reminds me of the Pharasees who when confronted about Jesus said "we have no king but ceasar."

 

[Aberration]

Of course they could if they want to. I am asking if it is consistent with Biblical teachings.

No. Gentile versus believer.

 

[Aberration]

I find it hard to imagine how an omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent being is in any way de-glorified by a thin piece of cloth tied to a metal stick.

Call no one father before me.

It's not the flag that de-glorifies. It's the hypocrisy it would represent.

 

[wolfman24]

As a Christian I object to reciting the pledge of allegiance, "honoring" the flag, or any similar acts of nationalism for a couple reasons:

1.) It sends the message of devoting oneself to a government, even if that government's actions go against the teachings of Jesus Christ

2.) These patriotic rituals often cross the line of pride, arrogance, and self-righteousness, characteristics that the Bible speaks out against

I recently attended a church that had a US flag on display in the sanctuary but no cross (though there was one outside). While national flags certainly have their place in society, should it really be in a church? I would be especially curious to hear the opinion of anyone who works at a church or any other place of worship.

Render onto Caesar that which is Caesar and that onto God God

 

[wolfman24]

What I said above and Its there choice.

 

[Geoist]

It doesn't bother me in the least. Actually, it's probably a positive thing that they do, as it seems to represent that they consider themselves members (and loyal to) their fellow citizens in addition to their religion, rather than dividing their loyalties between church group and nation group.

It makes no sense from a Christian perspective to favor citizens of one particular country over another. What should matter to them is citizenship in heaven (at least within the church grounds).

 

[lizzie]

It makes no sense from a Christian perspective to favor citizens of one particular country over another. What should matter to them is citizenship in heaven (at least within the church grounds).

It always makes sense to favor citizens with whom you identify, no matter what the identifying factor is. Church or country- groups are cohesive based on commonalities and shared values.

 

[Geoist]

It always makes sense to favor citizens with whom you identify, no matter what the identifying factor is. Church or country- groups are cohesive based on commonalities and shared values.

I'm not saying people don't favor certain nationalities and cultures over others. Its natural. But I am saying such biases are best left in the secular world, not in a church.

But to each his/her own.

 

[Jerry]

While national flags certainly have their place in society, should it really be in a church?

If you believe America is a Christian nation enjoying the many blessings of God, then yes.

 

[joko104]

Of course they could if they want to. I am asking if it is consistent with Biblical teachings.

Are you religious? A Christian?

Or is this a non-Christian trying to tell Christians how they should act? That's pretty common for non-religious people to do - to tell religious people how they should act according to their interpretation of a religion they don't believe in anyway.

 

[Geoist]

If you believe America is a Christian nation enjoying the many blessings of God, then yes.

A nation cannot be 'Christian' only individuals can be.

 

[Geoist]

Are you religious? A Christian?

Yes. I'm a nondenominational Christian.

or is this a non-Christian trying to tell Christians how they should act? That's pretty common for non-religious people to do - to tell religious people how they should act according to their interpretation of a religion they don't believe in anyway.

So religious people cannot debate amongst each other? What the heck was the Reformation about anyways?

 

[joko104]

Yes. I'm a nondenominational Christian.



So religious people cannot debate amongst each other? What the heck was the Reformation about anyways?

I was just curious. People can debate whatever they want to.

 

[ObamaIsAMarxist]

america is a christian country and saying the pledge of alligience is just another way of worshippng god. god has blessed this nation with his divine providence a true chrisitan recognizes that. how can you call yourself a chrisitan when you spew hatred of america like this? what church do you go to that allows you to do that in my cvhurch we have the american flag and before worship we always say plege of alligience. do you go to a libera lchurch???

and what does left libertarian mean? im sorry but i dont understand what that means libertarians are republican so your a liberal republican???? can u explain what you lean means???

As a Christian I object to reciting the pledge of allegiance, "honoring" the flag, or any similar acts of nationalism for a couple reasons:

1.) It sends the message of devoting oneself to a government, even if that government's actions go against the teachings of Jesus Christ

2.) These patriotic rituals often cross the line of pride, arrogance, and self-righteousness, characteristics that the Bible speaks out against

I recently attended a church that had a US flag on display in the sanctuary but no cross (though there was one outside). While national flags certainly have their place in society, should it really be in a church? I would be especially curious to hear the opinion of anyone who works at a church or any other place of worship.

 

[Rainman05]

I disagree with the OP on several issues.

1. I think people should say the pledge of allegiance in schools and in public institutions. If it is written well, it inspires loyalty and devotion to ones country and his people, not to the government.

2. Patriot oaths should cross the line of "abstinence" because you are supposed to glorify your nation. Nobody does things to be "average". Nobody wants an "average" country and be proud of it. You are supposed to show pride and feel proud of the accomplishments of your forefathers and hope to achieve more. It inspires greatness and that in turns, leads to greatness if properly nurished. Alone, it cannot do much but create morons... but together with something else, it can give birth to exceptionalism.

When religion condemns pride it condemns it in the context of the pharisees. People who got their fortune by being part of a mafia comprised of political leaders and jewish religious leaders at that time in Judeea, who exploited their people. In order to maintain their appearence and PR image, they would go out into the city streets with ash on their heads and pray to God and such... an act. since they would show their pride and their (i forget the word... the one that means showing off your devotion for public adoration). Also, one must not be proud of mediocrity and the pharisees, as well as others, were very mediocre people but they were the mafia. Also, don't be proud of bad deeds. Don't be proud of stupidity and weakness and all those bad things.

But that was out of line to some degree since the pledge of allegiance is done more in honor of those who did great things for their nations and that leads to pride. It is a whole different thing.

 

[Geoist]

america is a christian country

What do you mean by "Christian country?" I see that term thrown around a lot with not much explanation.

and saying the pledge of alligience is just another way of worshippng god.

The Pledge was written by a socialist who believed Americans did not have enough faith in their government. That is a big problem for me as a Christian.

god has blessed this nation with his divine providence a true chrisitan recognizes that.

Yes, we have been blessed. But I don't believe pledging oneself to a secular government is showing thankfulness to God. That is done through prayer.

how can you call yourself a chrisitan when you spew hatred of america like this?

Where did I spew hatred for America? I love this country and I don't want to see corrupt politicians destroy it.

what church do you go to that allows you to do that in

Allows what?

my cvhurch we have the american flag and before worship we always say plege of alligience.

Maybe you should inform your congregation of the Pledge's socialist origins.

do you go to a libera lchurch???

Would "liberal church" be anything less extreme than Southern Baptist?

and what does left libertarian mean? im sorry but i dont understand what that means libertarians are republican so your a liberal republican???? can u explain what you lean means???

1. Left libertarian can mean many things, but in a nutshell they believe in personal freedom while stressing social justice. From there it can branch off into several sub-ideologies that either embrace socialism (such as Noam Chomsky) or embrace free market/classical liberalism (such as Benjamin Tucker). I happen to embrace the free market and personal freedoms. I reject most forms of taxation (such as income and sales) while embracing a land value tax therefore I consider myself a geolibertarian.

Here is more info on left libertarians that embrace truly free markets.

2. Most libertarians are not Republicans.

 

[Geoist]

I disagree with the OP on several issues.

Fair enough.

1. I think people should say the pledge of allegiance in schools and in public institutions. If it is written well, it inspires loyalty and devotion to ones country and his people, not to the government.

So when you say, "and to the republic for which it stands" what do you think you are referring to?

2. Patriot oaths should cross the line of "abstinence" because you are supposed to glorify your nation. Nobody does things to be "average". Nobody wants an "average" country and be proud of it.

What do you mean by "average?"

You are supposed to show pride and feel proud of the accomplishments of your forefathers and hope to achieve more. It inspires greatness and that in turns, leads to greatness if properly nurished.

Pride is a tricky thing, especially for Christians. The kind of pride one has over a job well done is okay. But when it comes to patriotic/nationalistic "my country, right or wrong" pride there is only self-righteousness and that is clearly condemned in the Bible.

Alone, it cannot do much but create morons... but together with something else, it can give birth to exceptionalism.

The morons I see are born out of blind nationalism.

When religion condemns pride it condemns it in the context of the pharisees.

God condemned it well before the Pharisees in Proverbs.

Also, one must not be proud of mediocrity and the pharisees, as well as others, were very mediocre people but they were the mafia.

Sinful pride has nothing to do with mediocrity.

Also, don't be proud of bad deeds.

Likewise, you can have sinful pride over a "good deed."

 

[Geoist]

One Christian blogger on reciting the pledge and the difference between conditional allegiance and unconditional allegiance:

Frankly I’m usually suspicious of people who have a major beef against the Pledge of Allegiance. More often than not, they seem to have an ax to grind against God or against the United States. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not into blind patriotism, but the America-bashing and revisionist history gets tiring. I believe that in spite of all our faults and sins, God has played a major role in the history of our country. We were founded on basic principles of freedom. Those principles are linked to America’s religious heritage-- even though we’ve learned some painful lessons over the years about what “liberty and justice for all” really means.

But my own Christian faith won’t allow me to get completely comfortable with the Pledge of Allegiance, and I say that as a patriot. Here’s why: I don’t like pledging unconditional allegiance to anyone or anything other than Jesus Christ. I wouldn’t mind pledging conditional allegiance, but that’s not the way the Pledge of Allegiance is written. Anyone who takes the power of their words seriously should examine it carefully. It’s kind of like a blank check. I don’t write blank checks.
Ministry Matters™ | Blog | Christians and the Pledge

 

[Geoist]

For the conservative Christians who think we should say the Pledge, even in church this article is enlightening:

What's so conservative about the Pledge?

Very little, as it turns out. From its inception, in 1892, the Pledge has been a slavish ritual of devotion to the state, wholly inappropriate for a free people. It was written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist pushed out of his post as a Baptist minister for delivering pulpit-pounding sermons on such topics as "Jesus the Socialist." Bellamy was devoted to the ideas of his more-famous cousin Edward Bellamy, author of the 1888 utopian novel Looking Backward. Looking Backward describes the future United States as a regimented worker's paradise where everyone has equal incomes, and men are drafted into the country's "industrial army" at the age of 21, serving in the jobs assigned them by the state. Bellamy's novel was extremely popular, selling more copies than other any 19th century American novel except Uncle Tom's Cabin. Bellamy's book inspired a movement of "Nationalist Clubs," whose members campaigned for a government takeover of the economy. A few years before he wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, Francis Bellamy became a founding member of Boston's first Nationalist Club.

After leaving the pulpit, Francis Bellamy decided to advance his authoritarian ideas through the public schools. Bellamy wrote the Pledge of Allegiance for Youth's Companion, a popular children's magazine. With the aid of the National Education Association, Bellamy and the editors of Youth's Companion got the Pledge adopted as part of the National Public School Celebration on Columbus Day 1892.

Bellamy's recommended ritual for honoring the flag had students all but goosestepping their way through the Pledge: "At a signal from the Principal the pupils, in ordered ranks, hands to the side, face the Flag. Another signal is given; every pupil gives the Flag the military salute--right hand lifted, palm downward, to a line with the forehead and close to it... At the words, 'to my Flag,' the right hand is extended gracefully, palm upward, towards the Flag, and remains in this gesture till the end of the affirmation; whereupon all hands immediately drop to the side." After the rise of Nazism, this form of salute was thought to be in poor taste, to say the least, and replaced with today's hand-on-heart gesture.

Hands on their hearts, more than 100 Republican members of Congress gathered on the steps of the Capitol to recite the pledge shortly after the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ruled for Newdow in June 2002. It was an effective photo-op, allowing the G.O.P. to cast itself as the defender of tradition. But not every tradition deserves defending. Though no one can be legally compelled to salute the flag, encouraging the ritual smacks of promoting a quasi-religious genuflection to the state. That's not surprising, given that the Pledge was designed by an avowed socialist to encourage greater regimentation of society.

Regardless of the legal merits of Newdow's case -- which rests on a rather ambitious interpretation of the First Amendment's Establishment clause -- it's ironic to see conservatives rally to such a questionable custom. Why do so many conservatives who, by and large, exalt the individual and the family above the state, endorse this ceremony of subordination to the government? Why do Christian conservatives say it's important for schoolchildren to bow before a symbol of secular power? Indeed, why should conservatives support the Pledge at all, with or without "under God"?
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/whats-conservative-about-pledge-allegiance

 

[nota bene]

Wait, Southern Baptists are extreme? How? I've never thought of them this way and am not sure what I'm missing.

Morons are born from blind nationalism? What about sighted nationalism? Is that okay? I just wonder what is okay/not okay.

 

[Geoist]

Wait, Southern Baptists are extreme? How? I've never thought of them this way and am not sure what I'm missing.

They are notorious for their vengeful and arguably hate-filled speeches.

Here is one example from Pastor Charles Worley:



Not to say all Southern Baptists are this way. Its just the reputation of that denomination.

Morons are born from blind nationalism? What about sighted nationalism? Is that okay? I just wonder what is okay/not okay.

If you mean nationalism as in complete devotion to a State no matter what then it is never okay imo.

 

[Rainman05]

So when you say, "and to the republic for which it stands" what do you think you are referring to?

Your form of government. Not the executive branch or the legislative branch or the judicial branch which currently exists. But the notion that these 3 branches exist due to the fact that the US is a republic.

What do you mean by "average?"

Like in Africa. There is nothing to be proud of if you are an African living in Nigeria or Sudan. If you are an american, there is much to be proud of in your country. There is also much to be ashamed of... especially a lot of politicians and public discourse and the nutjobs that exist. But overall, when you add the good and substract the bad, it comes out as a big positive.

Pride is a tricky thing, especially for Christians. The kind of pride one has over a job well done is okay. But when it comes to patriotic/nationalistic "my country, right or wrong" pride there is only self-righteousness and that is clearly condemned in the Bible.

Yes, it is a tricky thing. I grant you that, but pride of ones nation and good accomplishments is not tricky, it is right.

The morons I see are born out of blind nationalism.

Yes, this is why I said: ". You are supposed to show pride and feel proud of the accomplishments of your forefathers and hope to achieve more. It inspires greatness and that in turns, leads to greatness if properly nurished. Alone, it cannot do much but create morons... but together with something else, it can give birth to exceptionalism."

God condemned it well before the Pharisees in Proverbs.

True, but that can swing both ways, for jews and Christians. I am talking strictly about Christians and that means after Jesus was born and started his saga and his story.

Sinful pride has nothing to do with mediocrity.

Yes, it does. There is a saying: A fool is not a fool enough if he isn't full of pride.

Likewise, you can have sinful pride over a "good deed."

Yes, you can, but it is not the case here, when one should be proud of his country.

 

[RGacky3]

I disagree with the OP on several issues.

1. I think people should say the pledge of allegiance in schools and in public institutions. If it is written well, it inspires loyalty and devotion to ones country and his people, not to the government.

2. Patriot oaths should cross the line of "abstinence" because you are supposed to glorify your nation. Nobody does things to be "average". Nobody wants an "average" country and be proud of it. You are supposed to show pride and feel proud of the accomplishments of your forefathers and hope to achieve more. It inspires greatness and that in turns, leads to greatness if properly nurished. Alone, it cannot do much but create morons... but together with something else, it can give birth to exceptionalism.

When religion condemns pride it condemns it in the context of the pharisees. People who got their fortune by being part of a mafia comprised of political leaders and jewish religious leaders at that time in Judeea, who exploited their people. In order to maintain their appearence and PR image, they would go out into the city streets with ash on their heads and pray to God and such... an act. since they would show their pride and their (i forget the word... the one that means showing off your devotion for public adoration). Also, one must not be proud of mediocrity and the pharisees, as well as others, were very mediocre people but they were the mafia. Also, don't be proud of bad deeds. Don't be proud of stupidity and weakness and all those bad things.

But that was out of line to some degree since the pledge of allegiance is done more in honor of those who did great things for their nations and that leads to pride. It is a whole different thing.

1. What IS the country if not the government, also according to the scriptures there are no national boarders in Gods eyes and shouldn't be in the christians eyes.

2.Thats bull****, where in the scriptures say you should glorify your nation? Is that why the Christians were killed in the Roman Empire? Because they were "glorifying their nation?"

The Religious leaders at the time said "we have no king but cesear" and unfortunately a lot of Christians today feel the same way about the country they are in.

 

[RGacky3]

america is a christian country and saying the pledge of alligience is just another way of worshippng god. god has blessed this nation with his divine providence a true chrisitan recognizes that. how can you call yourself a chrisitan when you spew hatred of america like this? what church do you go to that allows you to do that in my cvhurch we have the american flag and before worship we always say plege of alligience. do you go to a libera lchurch???

and what does left libertarian mean? im sorry but i dont understand what that means libertarians are republican so your a liberal republican???? can u explain what you lean means???

America has never been a christian country ... not even close ... A Christian country wouldn't let 20% of its children wallow in poverty and go hungry, or restrict healthcare from people in order to keep it a for profit industry, no would it bomb other countries for control of oil, or go to war at all. But put all that aside, there cannot be a christian country because christians don't believe in national boarders, we are all children of God and put our trust in the Kingdom of God "we do not put our trust in Nobels" as it says in the scriptures.

But it is telling that you think the pledge of allegience is another way of worshiping God, shows who your God is, basically idolatry.

Also God hasn't blessed teh US with divine providence, that goes DIRECTLY against the christian scriptures where it says that there is no greek or jew and no slave or freeman and so on in the eyes of God.

You are a poor excuse for a Christian, your basically a modern example of the pharasees that said "We have no King but Ceaser."