Question for people who believe being gay to be wrong

[ptif219]

Only Paul says it is a sin in his letters (which he wrote probably never imagining they would end up in Holy Scriptures). Jesus doesn't explicity state that homosexual behavior is a sin. Jesus was simply pro marriage and anti divorce.

In Matthew as I posted earlier Jesus shows a man should take a wife that leaves no room for homosexuality

 

[liblady]

two very logical reasons:

back in the day...

1. the population was small, being gay does not lead to an increase in population. you can't "be fruitful and multiply" through gay sex

2. as mentioned earlier...disease is spread more easily via anal sex. back in the day you couldn't pop down to walgreens for a condom.

which has nothing to do with today.

 

[Hoplite]

Hoplite, you are asking for secular reasons why a religion deems something a sin (which is a religious term meaning "contrary to God's will"). You are not going to get an answer in the format you are looking for.

I'm asking why we should still follow the religious reasoning of a rule that was made centuries ago for reasons that no longer exist.

We seem to consider passages that talk about not eating shellfish or selling our children relevant, why are passages that deal with homosexuality any more relevant?

other than morals and disease

Because morality is, at least from a roll-call perspective, relative and diseases exist for hetero sex as well in just the same frequency.

 

[ptif219]

I'm asking why we should still follow the religious reasoning of a rule that was made centuries ago for reasons that no longer exist.

We seem to consider passages that talk about not eating shellfish or selling our children relevant, why are passages that deal with homosexuality any more relevant?


Because morality is, at least from a roll-call perspective, relative and diseases exist for hetero sex as well in just the same frequency.

nice spin but more gays die from aids then

 

[Hoplite]

nice spin but more gays die from aids then

Let's see some proof.

 

[ptif219]

Let's see some proof.

When you show proof of heterosexuals die of sexual disease

 

[spud_meister]

When you show proof of heterosexuals die of sexual disease

Are you trying to say straight people don't get STD's?

 

[ptif219]

Are you trying to say straight people don't get STD's?

How many die?

 

[spud_meister]

How many die?

Lots.

Worldwide AIDS & HIV Statistics Including Deaths

That's just from AIDS, unless you're saying that 280,000 gay children died from AIDS in 2008.

And look at the situation in South Africa.

HIV/AIDS in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plus you can look through history at the amount of people that died from Syphillis before the advent of penicillin.

 

[OscarB63]

which has nothing to do with today.

we're not talking about today. we were talking about why homosexuality was considered a sin in the old testament. do try to keep up.

 

[spud_meister]

we're not talking about today. we were talking about why homosexuality was considered a sin in the old testament. do try to keep up.

Technically one could argue that it only condemned homosexual behaviour, not homosexuality in the sense of attraction to the opposite sex.

 

[OscarB63]

Let's see some proof.

really? are you seriously denying that more gays die from AIDS than straights??? do a quick 5 minute search of the CDC statistics.

United States HIV & AIDS statistics summary

Almost two-thirds of adults and adolescents living with AIDS in 2007 became infected with HIV through male-to-male sexual contact.

and when you throw in those who got AIDS thru hetero sex with someone who had had sex with a gay dude the number jumps to almost 80%

69% of people with AIDS got it from male-male sex contact
19% of people with AIDS got it from injection drug use
11% of people with AIDS got it from high risk hetero sex (aka sex with a drug user or someone who had gay sex)

that leaves a whopping 1% that got AIDS through some other method (blood transfusion, regular hetero sex, etc)

The statistics are a pretty obvious condemnation of male-male sex when it comes to getting/transmitting AIDS.

sorry if that hurts the feelings of gays and gay supporters...but the numbers don't lie.

and FWIW the breakdown by race is

black 43%
white 34%
hispanic 21%
asian 01%

with the remaining 1% being divided among indians, hawiians and mixed race

 

[OscarB63]

Technically one could argue that it only condemned homosexual behaviour, not homosexuality in the sense of attraction to the opposite sex.

unless you are in prison...the chances of a person engaging in homosexual behavior without being a homosexual are low. :shrug:

and FWIW, if you read Leviticus (chpt 18 IIRC) you will see that what is prohibited (ie called an abomination) is, in fact, the act.

the bible is kinda like DADT. you can be gay all you want, you just can't act gay. :shrug:

 

[ptif219]

Lots.

Worldwide AIDS & HIV Statistics Including Deaths

That's just from AIDS, unless you're saying that 280,000 gay children died from AIDS in 2008.

And look at the situation in South Africa.

HIV/AIDS in South Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plus you can look through history at the amount of people that died from Syphillis before the advent of penicillin.

Aids that is associated withn gay sex? You now want use that for heterosexuals? You want to go back decades I thought we were talking recent history. Shows me you have no proof

Answers.com - How many gay and bisexual men have died of AIDS

 

[OscarB63]

Aids that is associated withn gay sex? You now want use that for heterosexuals? You want to go back decades I thought we were talking recent history. Shows me you have no proof

Answers.com - How many gay and bisexual men have died of AIDS

"Approximately seventy (70) HIV infections in every ten thousand (10,000) are now thought to be the result of same-sex sexual contact (0.7 percent of total infections)."



Anyone care to explain/discuss why the % of AIDS cases among gays in the US is so much higher than the world average?

world wide 0.7% of AIDS cases due to gay sex
US 69% of AIDS cases due to gay sex

that's a huge differential. is it because there are truely that many more gay dudes in the US than elsewhere? is it because heteros in the US are more selective and more prone to use "protection" than heteros elsewhere? is it because most of the AIDS worldwide is found in Africa where sex ed is virtually non-existant? or is Africa just a nasty place to live in general?

 

[CriticalThought]

In Matthew as I posted earlier Jesus shows a man should take a wife that leaves no room for homosexuality

That is one way of interpreting it. But given that Jesus was answering a question regarding divorce and not talking about homosexuality, it is not the only way to interpret it.

 

[CriticalThought]

Anyone care to explain/discuss why the % of AIDS cases among gays in the US is so much higher than the world average?

HIV is primarily spread via anal sex, due to the ease by which rectal tissue tears. In Africa, anal sex has traditionally been practiced as birth control. HIV has devastated the American homosexual community due the rampant practice of unprotected anal sex. European countries where gay men practice considerably less anal sex (in exchange for other sexual practices such as oral sex, frotting, and mutual masturbation) have considerably lower rates of HIV infection of the gay male population. HIV is quite literally an anal sex disease and is not directly associated with sexual orientation.

Also, there is the fact that condoms are still one of the primary means in America for birth control. Gay men are less likely to use condoms as a result of not having to fear an unplanned pregnancy.

Finally, not to scare you, but there is a consensus among a large portion of the American health community that because gay men are several times more likely to get tested for HIV than heterosexuals, that the group has become over representative of actual HIV infections in the US. In other words, the HIV epidemic may be considerably worse among the heterosexual population than we know. Once infected it can take up to 10 years for symptoms to show and without a test, there is no way for someone who is infected with HIV to know.

 

[MKULTRABOY]

HIV is primarily spread via anal sex, due to the ease by which rectal tissue tears. In Africa, anal sex has traditionally been practiced as birth control. HIV has devastated the American homosexual community due the rampant practice of unprotected anal sex. European countries where gay men practice considerably less anal sex (in exchange for other sexual practices such as oral sex, frotting, and mutual masturbation) have considerably lower rates of HIV infection of the gay male population. HIV is quite literally an anal sex disease and is not directly associated with sexual orientation.

I didnt realise straight sex was immune to HIV :roll:

 

[CriticalThought]

I didnt realise straight sex was immune to HIV :roll:

Given I specficcally said in my post that anal sex has been used among heterosexuals in Africa as a means of birth control, your statement indicates that you lack reading comprehension. As far as the likelhood of obtaining an HIV infection from vaginal sex, it is considerably less than anal sex. In fact, statistically speaking, the odds of a heterosexual man in America obtaining HIV from unprotected vaginal sex is less than the likelihood of being struck by lighting.

 

[cpwill]

Fine, I'll kick it back off...

Homosexuality is wrong because...

A: Any sex outside of marriage is a sin.
B: It serves no purpose to society.

Those are the arguments I hear the more intelligent Christians make.

A definitely; B I'm not sure about.

The teleological argument regarding God's design (the anus is not for sex) falls apart when you consider masturbation and oral sex.

that's not necessarily the teleological argument; which holds that God design of sexuality is to bring men and women together in marriage and produce children. there isn't any part of the bible, for example, that holds that anal stimulation is outlawed in marriage.

 

[Catz Part Deux]

This is something I've been confused about for a while and I haven't really received an answer to it.

I dont understand WHY being gay is wrong, I dont understand why the bible prohibits it. There are no medical or psychological reason for it being wrong, we are obviously socially flexible enough to incorporate the gay community into our society, our society hasnt collapsed, we dont really need to "go forth and multiply" anymore.

So, why is being gay a sin?

I find that the God people choose to worship says more about who THEY are than it does about who GOD is.

 

[cpwill]

I find that the God people choose to worship says more about who THEY are than it does about who GOD is.

well the old saying goes that for most folks looking at God is like looking in a well; there's a lot of depth there, but they tend to just see a reflection of themselves.

 

[cpwill]

Technically one could argue that it only condemned homosexual behaviour, not homosexuality in the sense of attraction to the opposite sex.

that is correct. being attracted to memers of the same sex is no more sinful than me being attracted to women other than my wife.

 

[Goshin]

I'm asking why we should still follow the religious reasoning of a rule that was made centuries ago for reasons that no longer exist.

We seem to consider passages that talk about not eating shellfish or selling our children relevant, why are passages that deal with homosexuality any more relevant?

Who is this WE you keep talking about?

I am a Christian. You, IIRC, are a Pagan. Religiously, there is no "we" here.

I am not telling you how a Pagan should view homosexuality.

I am telling you how a Christian who takes the Bible seriously views homosexuality. You are the one trying to tell Christians they can't believe what they believe.

 

[CriticalThought]

Who is this WE you keep talking about?

I am a Christian. You, IIRC, are a Pagan. Religiously, there is no "we" here.

I am not telling you how a Pagan should view homosexuality.

I am telling you how a Christian who takes the Bible seriously views homosexuality. You are the one trying to tell Christians they can't believe what they believe.

Ooooh. Someone got a little huffy.

He was asking if the laws regarding homosexuality have become outdated. Paul said that faith should be guided by reason and so if clearly a reasonable case can be made that the laws regarding homosexual behavior have no place in modern society, it would be a Christian's duty to take that into account just as they have with many other outdated laws in the Bible.

Why take it so personally? It's a perfectly respectable view to take even if you aren't Christian.