Pope Francis and Economic Justice

[American]

You believe that there should be no taxes at all? Because conservatives are right about one thing - ALL taxes are wealth redistribution.

So...should there be no taxes at all? Or maybe we should have Really Low effective taxes like most third world nations do?

You like to use extreme and simplistic examples to prove your point. I don't buy it, you'll have to prove that's what I wanted. Good luck.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

You like to use extreme and simplistic examples to prove your point. I don't buy it, you'll have to prove that's what I wanted. Good luck.

Do you agree that all taxation is in one form or another wealth redistribution?

 

[American]

Do you agree that all taxation is in one form or another wealth redistribution?

That would depend on your definition of wealth redistribution, but I would say no.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

That would depend on your definition of wealth redistribution, but I would say no.

Definition of wealth redistribution? Okay - any forced taking of money from one person to be used for other people, whether or not that use directly or indirectly benefits the person from which the money was taken.

That's wealth redistribution. That's taxes. If you don't pay, you can go to jail. Period. That's forced taking of people's hard-earned money, is it not?

 

[justabubba]

Do you agree that all taxation is in one form or another wealth redistribution?

you have blown their collective mind with that point

many are still referring to taxes as theft

if you want to confuse them even further tell them to stand in a trash can and piss in the corner

 

[Fearandloathing]

Pope Francis and Economic Justice | Daily News | NCRegister.com

A phenomenal piece by Archbishop Chaput which helps clear up the Pope's positions which have been clouded either intentionally or unintentionally by the Press.

the "Holy Father" needs to provide justice in his own camp.

Thousands of men and women carry scars from the sexual abuse of his flock. Many are still in positions of trust and continue their horror and to this day thousands of sexual criminals hide behind his lace and flowery ways.

When the "Holy Father" takes up that crusade I will consider him worthy of a listen. Until then, preaching of penance falls where is should......in hell.

 

[American]

Definition of wealth redistribution? Okay - any forced taking of money from one person to be used for other people, whether or not that use directly or indirectly benefits the person from which the money was taken.

That's wealth redistribution. That's taxes. If you don't pay, you can go to jail. Period. That's forced taking of people's hard-earned money, is it not?

You can use that definition if you want, but you'll be alone.

 

[Glen Contrarian]

you have blown their collective mind with that point

many are still referring to taxes as theft

if you want to confuse them even further tell them to stand in a trash can and piss in the corner

I'm still laughing from that last part - mind if I use it? And I gotta ask - are you retired military? 'Cause that's something a Navy chief would say with a particularly vicious smile....

 

[Glen Contrarian]

You can use that definition if you want, but you'll be alone.

Actually, no, because literally speaking, all taxes are theft to some extent. Or, if you want to look at it in the liberal view, high taxes are the price of admission to live in a first-world democracy.

 

[ChezC3]

This new pope is just another mindless socialist who needs to keep his mouth shut.

It seems you know little about the Pope or socialism.

 

[The Baron]

It seems you know little about the Pope or socialism.

Uh-huh.

Pope is an anticapitalism socialist

 

[ChezC3]

Uh-huh.

Pope is an anticapitalism socialist

:lamo

Thank you for proving my point so succinctly.

 

[ChezC3]

Hence, it is clear that the main tenet of socialism, community of goods, must be utterly rejected, since it only injures those whom it would seem meant to benefit, is directly contrary to the natural rights of mankind, and would introduce confusion and disorder into the commonweal. The first and most fundamental principle, therefore, if one would undertake to alleviate the condition of the masses, must be the inviolability of private property. This being established, we proceed to show where the remedy sought for must be found.

Leo XIII - Rerum Novarum

Pope Francis has done nothing, said nothing which contradicts or abrogates this Encyclical. On the contrary, he has only reinforced it.

 

[RGacky3]

That's quite a stretch. In fact, Jesus seems to stress the exact opposite of your claim:

“My kingship is not of this world; if my kingship were of this world, my servants would fight, that I might not be handed over to the Jews; but my kingship is not from the world.” - John 18:36

You can't just take one verse and use it in a vacuum, you have to take the Whole narrative, the Whole messianic claim, the understanding of what the Kingdom was, of coarse Jesus' Kingdom was not of this world, it wasn't being given to him by an army, the emperor, or anyone else, it was being given to him by God.

That doesn't mean that Jesus' Kingdom is not earthly and political, and it's just some Heavenly realm "up there" ...

I think anyone interested in the historical Jesus should read NT Wright, he talks a lot about this.

 

[ludin]

You can't just take one verse and use it in a vacuum, you have to take the Whole narrative, the Whole messianic claim, the understanding of what the Kingdom was, of coarse Jesus' Kingdom was not of this world, it wasn't being given to him by an army, the emperor, or anyone else, it was being given to him by God.

That doesn't mean that Jesus' Kingdom is not earthly and political, and it's just some Heavenly realm "up there" ...

I think anyone interested in the historical Jesus should read NT Wright, he talks a lot about this.

Yet you do this constantly interesting that you oppose other people doing it.

Jesus's kingdom isn't earthly and it isn't policital. Christ's kingdom is fully perfect and gloryous and polictics doesn't exist. why? there is only one King and his rule is right and just.
this is why the jews missed Christ as the messiah.


Christ didn't die to make a kingdom here on earth. Why would he when revelation says that there will be a new heaven and a new earth for the old heaven and the old earth were washed away.

he isn't going to build a kingdom in place that isn't going to exist. that doesn't make much sense.

 

[justabubba]

this thread confirms that it is not only the extremist islamicists who misuse their religion to justify a perverse social and political ideology

 

[RGacky3]

1. Yet you do this constantly interesting that you oppose other people doing it.

2. Jesus's kingdom isn't earthly and it isn't policital. Christ's kingdom is fully perfect and gloryous and polictics doesn't exist. why? there is only one King and his rule is right and just.
this is why the jews missed Christ as the messiah.


3. Christ didn't die to make a kingdom here on earth. Why would he when revelation says that there will be a new heaven and a new earth for the old heaven and the old earth were washed away.

4. he isn't going to build a kingdom in place that isn't going to exist. that doesn't make much sense.

1. I don't think I do, but that's besides the point.

2. Gods Kingdom is often mentioned on opposition to, or apart from wordly Kingdoms, it's a competing model, Daniel 2 for example, as well as in Pauls epistles wehre he talks about the Powers and authorities in the context of opposition or apart from Gods Kingdom.

3. The term "heavens and Earth" refers to everything, and very often is used in a governmental context, if yo udon't believe me I can show you the References.


4. That's only if you take "New heavens and New Earth" to refer to the physical actual areas .... which is not the case in the context of revelation (which is almost all symbolic).

 

[ludin]

1. I don't think I do, but that's besides the point.

2. Gods Kingdom is often mentioned on opposition to, or apart from wordly Kingdoms, it's a competing model, Daniel 2 for example, as well as in Pauls epistles wehre he talks about the Powers and authorities in the context of opposition or apart from Gods Kingdom.

Yep and God and Christs kingdom is not here on earth. it is a heavenly and spiritual kingdom

3. The term "heavens and Earth" refers to everything, and very often is used in a governmental context, if yo udon't believe me I can show you the References.

in revelation he is specifically talking about heaven and earth. it is pretty clear and precise what John is refering to when he is talking as he is being very specific in describing the new heaven a few verses later.

4. That's only if you take "New heavens and New Earth" to refer to the physical actual areas .... which is not the case in the context of revelation (which is almost all symbolic).

There is no symbolic about it. John goes into great detail in describing the new heaven.

God's kingdom is not here on earth nor will it ever be. at least not until this world passes away.

 

[Paschendale]

American Christians seem to have gotten very good at finding ways to claim that Jesus' call to feed the hungry only meant with their pocket change and didn't mean to make any kind of real sacrifice for others. In this case, the sacrifice is the raising of the taxes of the super rich to the point where they'd almost notice. And they find excuses to claim that Jesus cared how justice was achieved, rather than simply saying to do it. Isn't the love of money the root of all evil?

 

[Paleocon]

Isn't the love of money the root of all evil?

Oh the irony. Socialism and liberal capitalism are both obsessed with money.

 

[RGacky3]

Oh the irony. Socialism and liberal capitalism are both obsessed with money.

Actually no they arn't.

Capitalism is the mandated love of Money, it's called maximizing profit.

I.e. all economic Activity in Capitalism MUST maximize individual profit while externlizing as much cost ... it's worse than individual lvoe of Money, it's INSTITUTIONALIZED love of Money.

I'ts an entire system based on an Abomination ... Usury, something that Jesus himself opposed (Jesus upheld the rule against usury).

Capitalism turns People into commodities, and turns ultimately everything into a commodity, isntead of being stewards of the Earth, it turns man into exploiters of the Earth and each other.

Liberal Capitalism IS capitalism .... there is no such thing as "conservative" capitalism, there are no real conservatives in the US, they are just neo-liberal plutocrats who try and dupe conservative religious People into supporting what are ultimately neo-liberal market policies, that hurt traditional values more than any heathen or social liberal could every.

 

[Paleocon]

Actually no they arn't.

Capitalism is the mandated love of Money, it's called maximizing profit.

I.e. all economic Activity in Capitalism MUST maximize individual profit while externlizing as much cost ... it's worse than individual lvoe of Money, it's INSTITUTIONALIZED love of Money.

I'ts an entire system based on an Abomination ... Usury, something that Jesus himself opposed (Jesus upheld the rule against usury).

Capitalism turns People into commodities, and turns ultimately everything into a commodity, isntead of being stewards of the Earth, it turns man into exploiters of the Earth and each other.

Liberal Capitalism IS capitalism .... there is no such thing as "conservative" capitalism, there are no real conservatives in the US, they are just neo-liberal plutocrats who try and dupe conservative religious People into supporting what are ultimately neo-liberal market policies, that hurt traditional values more than any heathen or social liberal could every.

Yes they are. Socialism is all about making everyone completely economically equal, because we apparently can't be morally equal without having equal assets (thus obsession with money).

I of course agree that capitalism is inherently non-conservative, yet there are certainly forms of capitalism which are non-liberal (China's state capitalist system being an extreme example of this).

That said, I don't prefer Capitalism as the best economic system.

 

[RGacky3]

Yes they are. Socialism is all about making everyone completely economically equal, because we apparently can't be morally equal without having equal assets (thus obsession with money).

I of course agree that capitalism is inherently non-conservative, yet there are certainly forms of capitalism which are non-liberal (China's state capitalist system being an extreme example of this).

That said, I don't prefer Capitalism as the best economic system.

1. No, no one things everyone should be economically equal, they should have equal SAY and equal access ....

2. It depends what you mean by Socialism, I mean that can be everything from Mondragon Cooperatives, Scandanavian Social-Democracy, the Soviet Union, to the early Church communalism.

 

[Paleocon]

1. No, no one things everyone should be economically equal, they should have equal SAY and equal access ....

2. It depends what you mean by Socialism, I mean that can be everything from Mondragon Cooperatives, Scandanavian Social-Democracy, the Soviet Union, to the early Church communalism.

1. Nevertheless, socialism is centered around money.

2. Any of them (excluding the one(s) you're making up).

 

[RGacky3]

1. Nevertheless, socialism is centered around money.

2. Any of them (excluding the one(s) you're making up).

1. If you mean by that it's an economic theory ... Yeah sure, but it makes Money less important than it is in Capitalism.

2. Really? which ones am I making up?