"Please Don't Shoot Me," Man Begged Before Cop Shot and Killed Him

[Paleocon]

Hah. Of course it doesn't. Anyway, its quite clear that this is an issue that happens with white people as well as black people. In fact, more white people are shot by police than black people (although less per capita). Do you really think that the amount of police shootings is just down to ethnic tension? That's going to be a large part of it but there's quite clearly something more than that, even if you want to gloss over it.

Our ethnic tensions are the main pertinent difference between us and Europe.

Self defense is subjective

No it isn't. Self defense is defined by objective legal standards. Again, your problematic relationship with reality is not the fault of the police.

 

[Nilly]

Our ethnic tensions are the main pertinent difference between us and Europe.

No it isn't. Self defense is defined by objective legal standards. Again, your problematic relationship with reality is not the fault of the police.

1) that's totally debatable
2) this was a white cop shooting a white guy
3) self defense is well defined but whether this situation qualifies as self defense (as per our definition of it) depends on the intentions of the aggressor, which we won't know because he's dead. further, it is perfectly normal to act in self defense without killing someone.
4) us police behaviour is not typical of the rest of reality. The whole reason I said it was 'terrifying' in my OP was because it is so many orders of magnitude different from the rest of reality. If cooperating with police leads to your being shot 5 times makes me offended, then yes. I am offended and I feel up the need to bring up my offense so it can be fixed, as other people would agree it needs, and as other countries already have

Both of us are repeating ourselves at this point. Not gonna keep going in circles.

 

[Paleocon]

1) that's totally debatable
2) this was a white cop shooting a white guy

Your inability to differentiate between particular instances and general patterns, is not my problem.

3) self defense is well defined but whether this situation qualifies as self defense (as per our definition of it) depends on the intentions of the aggressor, which we won't know because he's dead. further, it is perfectly normal to act in self defense without killing someone.

No, it's not. Self-defense is defined by what a reasonable person in the place of the defender would perceive.

 

[JC Callender]

This is exactly the sort of case that should get media attention. Some people need it to happen to a white guy to admit there's a problem.

It's a tragedy, but are you really shocked that a (allegedly) drunk guy who was earlier pointing a rifle out of a hotel room window was shot while quickly reaching behind himself when the cops told him not to move his hands?

 

[TheGoverness]

It's a tragedy, but are you really shocked that a (allegedly) drunk guy who was earlier pointing a rifle out of a hotel room window was shot while quickly reaching behind himself when the cops told him not to move his hands?

But he still shouldn't of been shot for that, though. At least try to taze the dude, first

 

[Nilly]

Your inability to differentiate between particular instances and general patterns, is not my problem.



No, it's not. Self-defense is defined by what a reasonable person in the place of the defender would perceive.

I already told you that more white people are killed than black people by police, and more white people are killed by police than white people in other countries.

This particular instance is an example of that.

It's a tragedy, but are you really shocked that a (allegedly) drunk guy who was earlier pointing a rifle out of a hotel room window was shot while quickly reaching behind himself when the cops told him not to move his hands?

The fact that he was on his hands and knees, having been told to crawl towards them and seemingly cooperating with them is the shocking part.

 

[JC Callender]

I already told you that more white people are killed than black people by police, and more white people are killed by police than white people in other countries.

This particular instance is an example of that.



The fact that he was on his hands and knees, having been told to crawl towards them and seemingly cooperating with them is the shocking part.

He was allegedly drunk and reached behind himself when the cops told him not to move his hands. That doesn't seem like cooperating to me. The real sad thing is that he was allegedly drunk and the cop seemed to be looking for trouble if he had that stuff inscribed on his pistol.

 

[Nilly]

He was allegedly drunk and reached behind himself when the cops told him not to move his hands. That doesn't seem like cooperating to me. The real sad thing is that he was allegedly drunk and the cop seemed to be looking for trouble if he had that stuff inscribed on his pistol.

As I put in OP, the report reads:

“The movement of SHAVER’s right arm in the recording was a very similar motion to someone drawing a pistol from their waist band,” the report reads. However, it continues, “SHAVER’s underwear were clearly visible and it appeared his shorts had fallen partially down his leg at that point. SHAVER’s motion was also consistent with attempting to pull his shorts up as they were falling off.”

The main part I have issue with is that this should have never got to that stage. He should have been on the floor, patted down and cuffed, not made to crawl towards the police like an animal.

 

[JC Callender]

As I put in OP, the report reads:

“The movement of SHAVER’s right arm in the recording was a very similar motion to someone drawing a pistol from their waist band,” the report reads. However, it continues, “SHAVER’s underwear were clearly visible and it appeared his shorts had fallen partially down his leg at that point. SHAVER’s motion was also consistent with attempting to pull his shorts up as they were falling off.”

The main part I have issue with is that this should have never got to that stage. He should have been on the floor, patted down and cuffed, not made to crawl towards the police like an animal.

I think there's too much we don't know. I don't like the thought of someone crawling either, but maybe he was in that kneeling position because he was drunk and couldn't/wouldn't cooperate properly. Being drunk, pointing a rifle....these aren't ordinary circumstances.

 

[TheGoverness]

I think there's too much we don't know. I don't like the thought of someone crawling either, but maybe he was in that kneeling position because he was drunk and couldn't/wouldn't cooperate properly. Being drunk, pointing a rifle....these aren't ordinary circumstances.

Even if he was failing to corporate, still doesn't justify shooting the man to death.

 

[JC Callender]

Even if he was failing to corporate, still doesn't justify shooting the man to death.

What does justify a police officer using their pistol?

 

[TheGoverness]

What does justify a police officer using their pistol?

If there is a clear threat presented, and they have no choice but to use their gun. Otherwise they have numerous other means to arrest the guy, like subdue him with physical force, or they could've tazed him if police actually used their tazers anymore. Cops are WAY to trigger happy when they can find other means to arrest people without them ending up with a bullet in their head.

 

[JC Callender]

If there is a clear threat presented, and they have no choice but to use their gun. Otherwise they have numerous other means to arrest the guy, like subdue him with physical force, or they could've tazed him if police actually used their tazers anymore. Cops are WAY to trigger happy when they can find other means to arrest people without them ending up with a bullet in their head.

No, "Cops" aren't way to trigger happy...very, very few rogue cops are.

 

[Mr Person]

This incident happened a few months ago so apologies if it has already been covered, but news of it has flared up today as the police report has become public. It can be found here

Articles:
Texas man fatally shot by Mesa officer begged for life
Daniel Shaver update: Officer Philip Brailsford describes moments before he fatally shot unarmed man - ABC15 Arizona



Absolutely terrifying that all it takes is a cop with an itchy trigger finger and boom. That's it, life's over. Brailsford's dept issued gun was found to have "You're F-----" inscribed on it.

Shaver was crying on his hands and knees and following police instructions to crawl towards them, when one of the officers seemed to judge that he was going for a weapon and shot him five times.

“The movement of SHAVER’s right arm in the recording was a very similar motion to someone drawing a pistol from their waist band,” the report reads. However, it continues, “SHAVER’s underwear were clearly visible and it appeared his shorts had fallen partially down his leg at that point. SHAVER’s motion was also consistent with attempting to pull his shorts up as they were falling off.”

A judge has ordered that the police bodycams of the instance not be released to the public. Whilst the officer in question has been charged with second degree murder, talks are ongoing for a plea deal for negligent homicide.

My thoughts:
1) Why did they not do a search of him the moment he was on the ground? Is normal police procedure to have them crawl around like dogs before bothering to search them for weapons?
2) Shaver did everything the police asked him (except try to pull up his pants) yet was still shot. That's terrifying. Why did they not cuff him?
3) Why does shoot first, ask questions later seem to be a prevailing method amongst US police?
4) Shaver was white, so obviously a case of police brutality not pertaining to African Americans, and hasn't seen quite the spotlight of other incidents.

Imagine all the times when such an incident isn't being recorded....


That we have reached such a place in an allegedly "free" country is largely owed to the fact that everytime something like this happens, there are tons of people ready to say "but that's just one bad apple. Most cops are good."

Well, the ever-increasing surveillance of police by civilians (and/or via dashcam or bodycam) has lead to an ever-increasing number of murders committed by police on tape. How many times in the last fifty years have cops killed people where there was no video? Beat up a suspect when nobody could prove it?

And what about all the cops who stayed silent? Those can't be considered good cops either. They're just as bad.