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I wondered.
Wouldn't put it past some, however.
I used it as a line once though... it got a good laugh.
I wondered.
Wouldn't put it past some, however.
I don't know Gathomas, I have the feeling that you believe women have their "place" in society.
Sometimes it is, especially when you are in a true "traditional" relationship. Women do not work or make their own money in such situations. They are maids and baby-delivering machines. The man works.
I've got no desire to the 50-year-old mother of a teenager. :lol: If I had a baby now, I would be 50 when that baby was 15. Normally people are becoming grandparents at that age in their lives.
Everyone's got a place in society. Some people are better suited towards certain places than others.
However, not even the Church teaches that women should be subservient to men or necessarily have to be mothers, or even married.
Do I think it is ultimately preferable for individuals and society in general to stick with the traditional model more often than not? Absolutely.
I do not believe, however, that other alternatives should not be available.
Going by that logic, couldn't the man in this scenario just as easily be described as being the woman's slave, sacrificing his freedom and leisure to provide her and her children with food, shelter, and clothing?
Even under the most strictly "traditional" of family structures, the exchange isn't quite so one sided as you are making out above. The woman might have to deliver the babies in question, but the man's got to provide for them.
That isn't exactly easy or fun. :lol:
In any case, however, this is ultimately besides the point. The "traditional approach" is not set in stone anyway, nor should it be.
While many old fashioned families prefer that the mother stay home so that she can provide her children the best care possible, they do not have a problem with her working outside the home if it is necessary to get by, or she desires to do so. Frankly, as I already pointed out, with modern technology, a person doesn't necessarily have to leave the house to earn money these days anyway.
You don't have to justify yourself to me, Chris. :lol:
It's not my decision what you do with your uterus. lol
My ex just had a baby... not mine. She will be 56 when the kid is 15 and her partner will be 62.
Holy crap that would suck. Changing diapers at 47 years old? No ****ing way.
Come on, we all know that you look down upon people who aren't holding up their end of your weird "traditional" roles values, so yes, people might feel like they have to justify themselves. :roll:
Yes, I agree that working and providing for a family isn't easy, and that is why it should be a choice, and people who choose not to (or cannot for whatever reason) follow traditional roles or to not have children shouldn't be looked down upon. That's not fair.
Come on, we all know that you look down upon people who aren't holding up their end of your weird "traditional" roles values, so yes, people might feel like they have to justify themselves. :roll:
Yes, I agree that working and providing for a family isn't easy, and that is why it should be a choice, and people who choose not to (or cannot for whatever reason) follow traditional roles or to not have children shouldn't be looked down upon. That's not fair.
What is a problem is when things get to the point where a majority of people are making objectively poor or unproductive choices, and not stopping to think about the long term consequences of their actions for either themselves, or their communities. There's simply no way a system can effectively function under such a short sighted and self-serving paradigm.
The problem here Gatho is that what makes a decision "poor or unproductive" is pretty subjective.
Our economy is settling into stagnation due to declining birth rates and aging populations, upwards social mobility is in the toilet while government dependency shoots through the roof due to single motherhood, divorce, and broken homes limiting economic opportunities for advancement, and the young adults meant to continue our culture into the next generation continue to grow more listless, debauched, and worthless with each passing year due to the influence of our, quite frankly toxic, youth and popular culture.
The only thing any of this can be said to "benefit" in any way whatsoever is some nebulous notion of hedonistic "individual freedom." I'm sorry, but I simply don't see "individualism" as being a pressing enough goal to sacrifice the well being of the collective whole. :shrug:
and you assign responsibility for this to the "liberal social model"?
In large part, yes. The blame for these problems can be laid at the feet of the changes in attitude and fundamental structure brought about in our society over course of the last half century by such Left Wing socio-political developments as the Cultural / Sexual "Revolution."
The blame for the broken state of the modern family and the toxic nature of our present youth culture can be placed absolutely no where else.
I suppose if taken to the literal interpretation one can see the terms Conservative to indicate societal stagnation and purposeful standstill, and Liberal as the evolution and adaptation of a society. If taken this way, you would have a valid point...yet the evolving nature of all societies will inevitably occur as reality flows in time.
You are certainly "Very Conservative" as proclaimed in your profile, and that is perfectly fine....but, it creates the basis for your perceptions of a broken society, primarily because you do not wish to see it change.
I suppose if taken to the literal interpretation one can see the terms Conservative to indicate societal stagnation and purposeful standstill, and Liberal as the evolution and adaptation of a society. If taken this way, you would have a valid point...yet the evolving nature of all societies will inevitably occur as reality flows in time.
You are certainly "Very Conservative" as proclaimed in your profile, and that is perfectly fine....but, it creates the basis for your perceptions of a broken society, primarily because you do not wish to see it change.
To quote C.S. Lewis here:
"We all want progress. But progress means getting nearer to the place where you want to be. And if you have taken a wrong turn, going forward does not get you any nearer. If you are on the wrong road, progress means doing an about-turn and walking back to the right road; and in that case, the man who turns back soonest is the most progressive man."
I don't deny that change can and will happen. I'm not even necessarily opposed to it if it can be said to contribute something to society as a whole.
Again, however, I simply don't think this has been the case with the social changes the Western World has experienced over the course of the last half century. They have only served to make things more difficult, by and large, not better.
Project much?
Just to make sure I have your a priori arguments right, are you suggesting that people should be excused from doing the right thing (assuming that having and taking care of a family is the right thing - which I agree is not true universally but for the sake of argument) if doing that right thing is difficult?
= Irrational.
In large part, yes. The blame for these problems can be laid at the feet of the changes in attitude and fundamental structure brought about in our society over course of the last half century by such Left Wing socio-political developments as the Cultural / Sexual "Revolution."
Where the broken state of the modern family or the toxic nature of our present youth culture is concerned, the blame can be placed absolutely no where else.
I agree with tecoyah's initial response to this. I think that your perspective is grounded in wanting things to stay the same. As a woman, I see the advances in equality for woman as a tremendous benefit not only to women but to society as a whole. I think the family has actually benefited from the changes to it's structure. You resist change and I welcome it so you see its destruction I see it's evolution. One mans trash.
The problem with that argument is the changes you support are destructive, and have been shown to be destructive, which is pretty much exactly what this thread is about. Destroying men to raise women up is not change you should support, as it doesn't actually lead to a better environment for all people.
I agree with tecoyah's initial response to this. I think that your perspective is grounded in wanting things to stay the same. As a woman, I see the advances in equality for woman as a tremendous benefit not only to women but to society as a whole. I think the family has actually benefited from the changes to it's structure. You resist change and I welcome it so you see its destruction I see it's evolution. One mans trash.
That's your perspective because you are coming from the same place as Gathos. I think the gun slinging babe ****ing hero you guys get sold is a crock and I that men in our culture have had limitations place on them and responsibilities placed squarely on their shoulders that place unfair limits ( or at the least placed obstacle) in the way of their evolution as humans.
How exactly do you think men are being destroyed by lifting women up? What do you mean by women being lifted up? Being raised to a level of greater equality is not being lift up.
Thats the problem though, it does not matter who's fault it is, there are no fault divorces in the US. And the way we treat women in the US, they have the power in any relationship. It starts early on in high school. Men do the VAST majority of the initiating when it comes to dating, relationships and sex, women do the choosing. Women give men the false sense of being in charge in order to stroke their ego's while the entire time, THEY are the ones controlling everything. This may be something that is forign to you because you are not an American. I don't know how much expirience you have living in American society. I have lived in many different countries, and American women are certainly a completely different animal then every where else I have been.Try the geographical problem, I am in the Netherlands and she lives in the US.
I do not know that the rules are stacked against men. Maybe it is men who are the dumb asses who cause marriages to fail (even if women are partly to blame often too and in some cases they are to be blamed entirely for the collapse of a marriage).
Women need to learn that marriage is a partnership. Maybe American men 60-70 years ago had some power over their wife in a marriage, but today, the roles are completely reversed. Today, women have the power. Again, this may be due to your lack of cultural knowledge of how relationships work in the US.If men see their marriage as their personal kingdom then in time most women will walk away from that marriage, even if they are hanging in too long at times. Men need to learn that a marriage is a partnership. You do not cheat on your partner. You do not treat your partner as someone who is not equal to you. You do not disrespect your partner by not spending quality time with her.
You are rights, mostly it is women who initiate the divorce, but I will guess that the reason for said divorce is usually the behavior of her husband (they cheat, they beat their wifes, they treat their homes as a hotel with their wives as their personal slaves). And men do get into problems when they divorce, maybe that will teach them to have pre-nups. A lot of women skipped going to a good school because their husbands all but demanded she stayed home, knocked up if at all possible and not get a good education. Men on the other hand often do have careers, their wives did not have that same opportunity and thus the man is usually in a much better financial state, that will mean that he will have to support the mother of his children as much as possible. A lot of men also liked their wives at home, the women did not have a career and now are having to play catchup in the careers department. And a lot of the times the women will almost solely take care of the children in their marriage and that will have to come at a price for the men.
No, not blind. Men are finally being the butt of jokes after centuries of women being the butt of male jokes. Women are giving back as much as they get. I truly believe that women are still much more often the butt of male jokes compared to men being the butt of jokes by women. Women given is good as they get is called emancipation and if male ego's cannot handle that, well, tough luck I would say..
No way, when I'm that age, I want to retire and relax and have life be all about me. I'll live out my teenage years again. :2razz: Probably not, though, because I'll be too tired.
But you guys love us anyway! :lol:
Thats the problem though, it does not matter who's fault it is, there are no fault divorces in the US. And the way we treat women in the US, they have the power in any relationship. It starts early on in high school. Men do the VAST majority of the initiating when it comes to dating, relationships and sex, women do the choosing. Women give men the false sense of being in charge in order to stroke their ego's while the entire time, THEY are the ones controlling everything. This may be something that is forign to you because you are not an American. I don't know how much expirience you have living in American society. I have lived in many different countries, and American women are certainly a completely different animal then every where else I have been.
Women need to learn that marriage is a partnership. Maybe American men 60-70 years ago had some power over their wife in a marriage, but today, the roles are completely reversed. Today, women have the power. Again, this may be due to your lack of cultural knowledge of how relationships work in the US.
Way to go along with the media brainwashing. The media wants us all to believe that everything is a mans fault, and that men are all bumbling fools. Women are exquisite roses who are sensible, smart and sexy no matter how she looks. Yea.... And lets not give men any credit for anything. Especially.. pretty much inventing, creating and protecting the world we find ourselves in today. Without it, women would not have ever been able to be "equal" to begin with.
In a world of stupendous PC, why are women, children, gays, blacks, mexicans... ect ect.. all protected, but men are not? Does not sound remotely like a society that truely believes in equal rights.