Kitty Werthmann's message to us...

[Harry Guerrilla]

To most in this thread, imo.



Goshin didn't state a political candidate to watch out for, nor did the picture imply anyone running is the Hitler, nor did it imply a modern political party.
This lady essentially said that when people are struggling (or feel that they are struggling), they will elect people who make or appear to have all the answers.
Be watchful of who you elect, seems to be the message.

Hitler and the Nazi's are just an easy to see, in your face example.
In America and other states, the **** politicians aren't so easy to recognize.

 

[Absentglare]

That's some seriously convoluted garbage.

My claim is that committing genocide against a people disqualifies one from being a leader of those same people. A leader shows others the way, how is committing genocide against a people showing them the way.

Okay you can surely redefine "leader" to some strangely strict definition, but that only applies in your own mind.

Out here in reality, we use common definitions in order to facilitate communication.

Leader: the person who leads or commands a group, organization, or country.

Lead: to guide in direction, course, action, opinion.

The only way that Saddam could be said to both (1) have committed genocide and (2) not be a leader is if he committed genocide all by himself. Now, are you arguing that Saddam, himself, executed every one of his orders ? Because even then, he was trivially the leader of his own country, so by definition, you are completely wrong.

Again, i think you're experiencing the fallacy of equating being a bad leader with not being a leader, an arbitrarily confusing distinction.

 

[Absentglare]

To most in this thread, imo.

View attachment 67191289

Goshin didn't state a political candidate to watch out for, nor did the picture imply anyone running is the Hitler, nor did it imply a modern political party.
This lady essentially said that when people are struggling (or feel that they are struggling), they will elect people who make or appear to have all the answers.
Be watchful of who you elect, seems to be the message.

Hitler and the Nazi's are just an easy to see, in your face example.
In America and other states, the **** politicians aren't so easy to recognize.

Oh, that's the message?

Be wary of the republicans who insist that tax cuts will help us out ?

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Oh, that's the message?

Be wary of the republicans who insist that tax cuts will help us out ?

Entirely possible, especially if they say it's a panacea.

 

[Redress]

To most in this thread, imo.

Goshin didn't state a political candidate to watch out for, nor did the picture imply anyone running is the Hitler, nor did it imply a modern political party.
This lady essentially said that when people are struggling (or feel that they are struggling), they will elect people who make or appear to have all the answers.
Be watchful of who you elect, seems to be the message.

Hitler and the Nazi's are just an easy to see, in your face example.
In America and other states, the **** politicians aren't so easy to recognize.

Actually no. The woman who wrote that was making the explicit point that the US is heading towards totalitarianism. While she is slightly less than blatant in the email quoted to start the thread, she has stated wuite clearly since what she meant by it. The OP tried to make a point that was seen through rather easily by most.

 

[joG]

Greg KelloggDecember 31, 2012 ·

“I am a witness to history.
“I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history.
If you remember the plot of the Sound of Mu...sic, the Von Trapp family escaped over the Alps rather than submit to the Nazis. Kitty wasn’t so lucky. Her family chose to stay in her native Austria. She was 10 years old, but bright and aware. And she was watching.
“We elected him by a landslide – 98 percent of the vote,” she recalls.
She wasn’t old enough to vote in 1938 – approaching her 11th birthday. But she remembers.
“Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.”
No so.
Hitler is welcomed to Austria
“In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our workforce was unemployed. We had 25 percent inflation and 25 percent bank loan interest rates.
Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn’t want to work; there simply weren’t any jobs.
“My mother was a Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry people – about 30 daily.’
“We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been in power since 1933.” she recalls. “We had been told that they didn’t have unemployment or crime, and they had a high standard of living.

Most the Germans and the Austrians liked their Führer and with few exceptions supported him enough to finance a pile of criminal activities that the man had advertised in a book that as good as all exhibited in their bookshelf.

 

[joG]

Hitler tried to conquer most of Europe and all of Russia at once while exterminating entire ethnic groups and eliminating civil rights almost entirely. it isn't analogous to any likely political scenario in the US. most first world countries also have more efficient healthcare systems than we do, including Germany, and some offer college education at a much lower cost. none of those countries are analogous to Nazi Germany, either.

sorry, man.

I wish I were still convinced. There are rather disquieting tendencies underway now that have increasingly reminded me of nasty things from history, out of political theory and what the literature concerned with such things describes.

 

[joG]

I've listened to her on youtube, more than once. If we continue on our present path the day will come when this country welcomes Hitler. Because, as even the Germans will tell you to this day, "This wouldn't have happened in Hitler's day."

You're damned right! You wouldn't even have been allowed to say it. .....
....of course, that is how it is beginning to be here.

 

[ecofarm]

Okay you can surely redefine "leader" to some strangely strict definition, but that only applies in your own mind.

I think you're the one that doesn't know what a leader is. I can tell you, a leader of a people does not commit genocide against them.

 

[Hard Truth]

no candidate on the right or left is comparable to Hitler, and no current US political scenario is analogous to Nazi Germany. i know that it is satisfying for one side or the other to pretend that is the case, but it isn't. it's hyperbole.

I hear the echoes of Hitler whenever a leading politician labels a particularly unpopular and vulnerable group as criminals, terrorists or rapists and calls for mass deportations.

 

[Helix]

I wish I were still convinced. There are rather disquieting tendencies underway now that have increasingly reminded me of nasty things from history, out of political theory and what the literature concerned with such things describes.

a big part of the reason that the Nazis were able to come to power is because of the crushing effects that war reparations from WWI had on the economy. without that mistake, Hitler would have had a much more difficult road to power, and probably would have remained a fringe idiot on the far right. even though the US can't seem to get out of the Middle East, our economy is not analogous to Weimar Germany.

basically, war ****ed everything up, and led to more war. perhaps that's the important lesson to learn.

 

[Helix]

I hear the echoes of Hitler whenever a leading politician labels a particularly unpopular and vulnerable group as criminals, terrorists or rapists and calls for mass deportations.

again, unlikely to happen. those with the most money to lobby want the labor. also, Trump is not a viable candidate, IMO.

 

[joG]

a big part of the reason that the Nazis were able to come to power is because of the crushing effects that war reparations from WWI had on the economy. without that mistake, Hitler would have had a much more difficult road to power, and probably would have remained a fringe idiot on the far right. even though the US can't seem to get out of the Middle East, our economy is not analogous to Weimar Germany.

basically, war ****ed everything up, and led to more war. perhaps that's the important lesson to learn.

The circumstances were certainly defining of the Weimar period as were the humiliations the population felt. But history need not repeat itself exactly. I think that present developments should be watched carefully.

 

[Helix]

The circumstances were certainly defining of the Weimar period as were the humiliations the population felt. But history need not repeat itself exactly. I think that present developments should be watched carefully.

the "present developments" are already established public policy in other parts of the first world. state sponsored healthcare and enhanced college assistance =/= Hitler.

 

[joG]

the "present developments" are already established public policy in other parts of the first world. state sponsored healthcare and enhanced college assistance =/= Hitler.

It is nice to see your sense of humor is sick enough.

 

[Helix]

It is nice to see your sense of humor is sick enough.

this does exceptionally little to bolster your argument.

 

[joG]

this does exceptionally little to bolster your argument.

It was only a polite comment and no argument. After your last remarks I had not thought you were no longer seriously interested in the tooic.

 

[Absentglare]

The circumstances were certainly defining of the Weimar period as were the humiliations the population felt. But history need not repeat itself exactly. I think that present developments should be watched carefully.

Yes, so i would be vary wary of republican propaganda that suggests tax cuts are free and good for everyone.

Poor democrats have been suffering because they are realistic about the costs of their plans.

 

[joG]

Yes, so i would be vary wary of republican propaganda that suggests tax cuts are free and good for everyone.

Poor democrats have been suffering because they are realistic about the costs of their plans.

I think you have totally missed the problem.

 

[Goshin]

Goshin... this is a nakedly transparent post, which tips the extremist partisan hyperbole scale somewhere around "Alex Jones would be proud."

Please do not insult our intelligence by pretending you weren't aware that she means these speeches in relation to Obama. Even without including that part in your post, it is readily obvious to anyone with working eyes.

This kind of nonsense should be below you. It's certainly below being worthy of any serious response.

Tell me... in the four years you've been here, how often have you seen me post anything "hyperpartisan"? Or conspiracy-theory-ish?


Pretty close to zero isn't it?


Maybe that should make you stop and think a minute.



As for me, I PERSONALLY was not thinking of Obama in particular. I don't have that high an opinion of him, that he could be another Hitler.



I think you've been around long enough to know that I tend to say what I mean, and mean what I say. What did I say? I said it was worth reading, how Austria fell into such straits, the manner in which it happened, and how so many were clueless until it was too late. I think this information is worth knowing.


I didn't say it applied to any current political figures. If I'd meant that it did, I would have SAID that it did.



Amazes me that this little thread, telling the story of a lady who survived a Nazi takeover of her country, has drawn so much ire. If this story is a stone, I myself was not aiming it at anyone. Why so many are yelling in pain is a bit of a mystery.

 

[Goshin]

To most in this thread, imo.

View attachment 67191289

Goshin didn't state a political candidate to watch out for, nor did the picture imply anyone running is the Hitler, nor did it imply a modern political party.
This lady essentially said that when people are struggling (or feel that they are struggling), they will elect people who make or appear to have all the answers.
Be watchful of who you elect, seems to be the message.

Hitler and the Nazi's are just an easy to see, in your face example.
In America and other states, the **** politicians aren't so easy to recognize.

Thanks, Harry. I'm glad at least ONE person got the point.


A lot of people in this thread, who I THOUGHT knew me better, have made some pretty wild assumptions.

 

[Goshin]

I went through and actually read the whole thread now.


And wish I'd never posted it.



I thought it was an interesting story worth reading. I wasn't personally tying it to any political figure or party currently extant.


I had no idea it was going to generate such anger and ire and misunderstandings and draw such nasty straw-man/red herring attacks. If I had, I wouldn't have bothered to post it.




I just thought it was interesting and worth a read. Nothing more... SMH.

 

[MaggieD]

Hitler tried to conquer most of Europe and all of Russia at once while exterminating entire ethnic groups and eliminating civil rights almost entirely. it isn't analogous to any likely political scenario in the US. most first world countries also have more efficient healthcare systems than we do, including Germany, and some offer college education at a much lower cost. none of those countries are analogous to Nazi Germany, either.

sorry, man.

Because you really believe that, and I know you're not alone, is proof that we need to be ever vigilant.

 

[JumpinJack]

A leader of what? Certainly not the Iraqi people whom he committed genocide against twice. Do you call committing genocide against people "leading" them?



The US addresses all those things. Is your argument that the US should invade everywhere at the same time?

Saddam Hussein was the leader of Iraq. He was a member of the Sunni tribe....half the nation of Iraq. The other half, the shi'ites, were the ones he persecuted and who were happy we toppled them. Ironically, it is the shi'ites who are the religious extremists.

Richard Clarke, the U.S. terrorism expert at the time, published a book critical of the Bush administration leading up to the Iraq War. He said that Bush and others didn't understand that Iraq doesn't have "nationalism" like a western state. Its citizens are members of tribes dating back for centuries. That is what the people recognize, and think of themselves as, rather than as Iraqis. Bush also didn't understand the role that Hussein played in keeping Al Qaeda at bay in the region. Hussein was a brutal, evil man. But that's what it took to keep AQ away. AQ was actually afraid of him. He was ruthless.

Hussein also kept Iran in check. Iran was very happy when the U.S. executed Hussein and toppled the Iraqi regime. The flood gates were opened, and Iranians poured into Iraq over the border.

So yes...Hussein was the leader of Iraq. There has not been a strong leader there since. So they have ISIS and others taking over parts of the country. All because we went to war for a false reason, to get the oil. And even our oil situation is pitiful. To top it all off, we have trillions in debt for that war, still not paid for.

 

[Absentglare]

Because you really believe that, and I know you're not alone, is proof that we need to be ever vigilant.

I'm not sure what point you're contesting.

1- Hitler was a eugenicist who wanted to exterminate inferior races. That has virtually nothing in common with any aspect of proposed American policy.

2- OECD.org -> you can click on the data. Look at "public health expenditures" (money the government spends on health care as a % of GDP) and look at "total health expenditures" (money that either the government or the private sector spends on health care as a % of GDP). The OECD average for total healthcare expenditures is 8.9% of GDP, and the US spends 7.9% of GDP on public health expenditures. Let that sink in. Of 34 developed nations, the average price of care is so much lower than the price of care in the US that our government spending alone could already provide healthcare to almost every American. That's just a pathetic rate of efficiency. Our healthcare isn't even particularly exceptional, it's poorly coordinated.

3- The government pays for higher education in countries like Germany. That's also true. They're not going bankrupt. They're not losing their rights.

So please help me understand what, specifically, you're contesting here.