Is Christ our Example?

[Ntharotep]

Sounds like Ingersall had a point to make and didn't care too much about silly things like research or backing up his words with scripture as long as he made that point.

Jesus was the son of a carpenter, a tradesman and also worked as a carpenter himself before he went "homelessly about". (Same citing as Ingersall gives).
I'm hardly a bible cheerleader but I think summarizing 30+ years of a person's life and their beliefs into one paragraph is pretty much like saying "All Republicans hate the Government" and "All Liberals worship the Government"....its a broad façade created to add a quick unnecessary label.

As for my own view. I think Jesus is awesome. I just don't care much for his dad.

 

[dadalus]

So somone with zero Biblical knowledge tries to analayze Jesus. How do I know that you have NO Biblical knowledge?? Because anyone who had made any effort whatsoever would have know that when Jesus cried out "My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?", he was referring to what we call Psalm 22.


This is a prophesy regarding the death of the Messiah and Jesus was using the normal way of referring to a passage at the time of quoting the first lines of the passage being referred to.
So the next time you try to act like know ANYTHING about the Bible, please stop and actually learn something about it beyond regurgitating the same Biblically illiterate garbage that we've all seen time and again.

Right, Jesus was singing a song on the cross. Obviously an embellishment by the writers to tie it back to the OT. (Who, in the throes of death would start singing show tunes?)

That still doesn't take away Ingersoll's observation that the character in the Bible realizes God is not going to save him.

The book (Mark) ends with the ladies going to annoit Jesus, but they find the tomb empty and they run away, not telling anyone. (That is, how do we know about this story unless it was made up?)

But then, lying Christians add an ending to Mark:

16 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.

3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?

4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.

5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.

6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

7 But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.

8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.


This is the start of what lying Christians added later.

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.


Notice the jolt from how the story was reading nicely to suddenly a completely different attitude and perspective.

It's an interpolation. It's a lie.


Check your Bible. It will tell you that the ending of Mark is not in the earliest manuscripts.

 

[cpwill]

...HE never said a word in favor of education. He never even hinted at the existence of any science. He never uttered a word in favor of industry, economy or of any effort to better our condition in this world. He was the enemy of the successful, of the wealthy. Dives was sent to hell, not because he was bad, but because he was rich. Lazarus went to heaven, not because he was good, but because he was poor.

Christ cared nothing for painting, for sculpture, for music—nothing for any art. He said nothing about the duties of nation to nation, of king to subject; nothing about the rights of man; nothing about intellectual liberty or the freedom of speech. He said nothing about the sacredness of home; not one word for the fireside; not a word in favor of marriage, in honor of maternity.

He never married. He wandered homeless from place to place with a few disciples. None of them seem to have been engaged in any useful business, and they seem to have lived on alms.
All human ties were held in contempt; this world was sacrificed for the next; all human effort was discouraged. God would support and protect.
At last, in the dusk of death, Christ, finding that he was mistaken, cried out: "My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?"...

1. The Bible is clear that education of your children is important.
2. Anyone who thinks that Jesus wasn't in favor of marriage hasn't read his discussions on marriage.
3. Jesus was neither "for the poor" as the poor, or "against the rich" as the rich. Jesus declared that salvation had happened twice - once for a criminal being executed, and once for a wealthy man.
4. Christs' call on the Cross wasn't a "discovery he was wrong", it was a direct quote of Psalm 22, which Jesus was referencing to put what was happening in context.

My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?
2 O my God, I cry by day, but you do not answer,
and by night, but I find no rest.


3 Yet you are holy,
enthroned on the praises[a] of Israel.
4 In you our fathers trusted;
they trusted, and you delivered them.
5 To you they cried and were rescued;
in you they trusted and were not put to shame.


6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by mankind and despised by the people.
7 All who see me mock me;
they make mouths at me; they wag their heads;
8 “He trusts in the Lord; let him deliver him;
let him rescue him, for he delights in him!”


9 Yet you are he who took me from the womb;
you made me trust you at my mother's breasts.
10 On you was I cast from my birth,
and from my mother's womb you have been my God.
11 Be not far from me,
for trouble is near,
and there is none to help.
...

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint;
my heart is like wax;
it is melted within my breast;
15 my strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to my jaws;
you lay me in the dust of death.


16 For dogs encompass me;
a company of evildoers encircles me;
they have pierced my hands and feet—
17 I can count all my bones—
they stare and gloat over me;
18 they divide my garments among them,
and for my clothing they cast lots.

.....

22 I will tell of your name to my brothers;
in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:
23 You who fear the Lord, praise him!
All you offspring of Jacob, glorify him,
and stand in awe of him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For he has not despised or abhorred
the affliction of the afflicted,
and he has not hidden his face from him,
but has heard, when he cried to him.


25 From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
my vows I will perform before those who fear him.
26 The afflicted[d] shall eat and be satisfied;
those who seek him shall praise the Lord!
May your hearts live forever!


27 All the ends of the earth shall remember
and turn to the Lord,
and all the families of the nations
shall worship before you.
28 For kingship belongs to the Lord,
and he rules over the nations.


29 All the prosperous of the earth eat and worship;
before him shall bow all who go down to the dust,
even the one who could not keep himself alive.
30 Posterity shall serve him;
it shall be told of the Lord to the coming generation;
31 they shall come and proclaim his righteousness to a people yet unborn,
that he has done it.

Jesus' final words before he died were "It is finished". He has done it. On the cross, dying, Jesus called us to worship and pointed to the spread of the faith across the globe.

Roger Ingersoll, it seems, is an idiot.

 

[dadalus]

Sounds like Ingersall had a point to make and didn't care too much about silly things like research or backing up his words with scripture as long as he made that point.

Jesus was the son of a carpenter, a tradesman and also worked as a carpenter himself before he went "homelessly about". (Same citing as Ingersall gives).
I'm hardly a bible cheerleader but I think summarizing 30+ years of a person's life and their beliefs into one paragraph is pretty much like saying "All Republicans hate the Government" and "All Liberals worship the Government"....its a broad façade created to add a quick unnecessary label.

As for my own view. I think Jesus is awesome. I just don't care much for his dad.

First, if Jesus was employed at one time, he wasn't during his ministry.

Second, the term for "carpenter" was "tekton" which had multiple translations:
) a worker in wood, a carpenter, joiner, builder
a) a ship’s carpenter or builder
2) any craftsman, or workman
a) the art of poetry, maker of songs
3) a planner, contriver, plotter
a) an author


There is nothing in the Bible that would suggest a carpenter over, say, a poet. And, since he was also called a Rabbi, it probably meant he could read and write - which would make "poet, or author" more appropriate.

He might very well have been a handyman, but it is clear he asked his followers to drop what they were doing - leave their families and jobs - to walk around with him.

Plus, let's say Ingersoll is wrong about this one thing. That doesn't make the rest of it wrong.

 

[dadalus]

1. The Bible is clear that education of your children is important.
2. Anyone who thinks that Jesus wasn't in favor of marriage hasn't read his discussions on marriage.
3. Jesus was neither "for the poor" as the poor, or "against the rich" as the rich. Jesus declared that salvation had happened twice - once for a criminal being executed, and once for a wealthy man.
4. Christs' call on the Cross wasn't a "discovery he was wrong", it was a direct quote of Psalm 22, which Jesus was referencing to put what was happening in context.



Jesus' final words before he died were "It is finished". He has done it. On the cross, dying, Jesus called us to worship and pointed to the spread of the faith across the globe.

Roger Ingersoll, it seems, is an idiot.

Were those Jesus's final words? Take another look. You'll find a contradiction.

In Matthew and Mark (Because Matthew copied from Mark - since none of these are eyewitness accounts)
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

In Luke:
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do
Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise (in response to one of the two thieves crucified next to him)
Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (last words)

In John:
Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (directed at Mary, the mother of Jesus, either as a self-reference, or as a reference to the beloved disciple and an instruction to the disciple himself)
I thirst (just before a wetted sponge, mentioned by all the Canonical Gospels, is offered)
It is finished (last words)


That's amazing! He had three last words!




And, since none of the accounts are eyewittness accounts, we really have no idea if Jesus said anything other than "OK! I confess! I made it all up!!"

 

[cpwill]

Were those Jesus's final words? Take another look. You'll find a contradiction.

In Matthew and Mark (Because Matthew copied from Mark - since none of these are eyewitness accounts)
My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?

In Luke:
Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do
Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise (in response to one of the two thieves crucified next to him)
Father, into your hands I commit my spirit (last words)

In John:
Woman, behold your son: behold your mother (directed at Mary, the mother of Jesus, either as a self-reference, or as a reference to the beloved disciple and an instruction to the disciple himself)
I thirst (just before a wetted sponge, mentioned by all the Canonical Gospels, is offered)
It is finished (last words)

That's amazing! He had three last words!

And, since none of the accounts are eyewittness accounts, we really have no idea if Jesus said anything other than "OK! I confess! I made it all up!!"

Well, no. They each record different things that he said. All four Gospels either were or drew from the eyewitness accounts. Matthew was the account of Matthew, John the account of John, Mark the account of Peter, and Luke the account of the community of eyewitnesses that he interviewed, which appear to have included Mary.


Ingersol remains ignorant and foolish, having entirely missed sections of that which he claimed to be discussing. :shrug:

Sounds like Ingersall had a point to make and didn't care too much about silly things like research or backing up his words with scripture as long as he made that point

Basically. And people who already agree with him, but who don't employ critical thinking, will therefore find it compelling.

 

[dadalus]

Well, no. They each record different things that he said. All four Gospels either were or drew from the eyewitness accounts. Matthew was the account of Matthew, John the account of John, Mark the account of Peter, and Luke the account of the community of eyewitnesses that he interviewed, which appear to have included Mary.

OK, this is the first lie you must disabuse yourself of. NONE of the gospels even claim to be eyewitness accounts. They may say they are trying to get the stories right - but which stories? Actual accounts or just stories?

John was written in about 90CE. That's TWO generations after Jesus died. (30 years was the length of a generation in that time). And, the authorship of John is in question. John of Patmos? John the Evangelist? Some other John?

Not to mention, the titles of the gospels were given MUCH later - they don't claim to be written by the people attributed to them.

"The Gospel of John is anonymous; Church tradition identified the "beloved disciple" mentioned in John 21:24 as the author and named him (John the evangelist), but this is rejected by the majority of modern scholars.[10][Notes 1] Scholars believe that the text went through two to three "editions" before reaching its current form,[11] [12] and because of this complex and multi-layered history it is meaningless to speak of a single author.[13]

John is usually dated to 90-110 CE.[14][Notes 2] It arose in a Jewish Christian community in the process of breaking from the Jewish synagogue,"

Ingersol remains ignorant and foolish, having entirely missed sections of that which he claimed to be discussing. :shrug:

Ingersoll was ignorant of things we have come to know about the Bible in recent years. He was no fool, and was highly educated.

Basically. And people who already agree with him, but who don't employ critical thinking, will therefore find it compelling.

I think you are talking about yourself with regard to the Bible.




Remember, most Christians became Christian like you did: they heard a story and believed it. There was no Bible until hundreds of years later, and few people had access to (or could read) the mss that existed.

Not to mention there were hundreds of "false" gospels being written. There is no indication that the 4 gospels we have are in any way more accurate than the false ones.

 

[SMTA]

But you posted 5 times on this worthless OP

Just making sure to identify hypocrisy and and garbage when it exists.

There is also humor in exposing said garbage to be had.

 

[dadalus]

Just making sure to identify hypocrisy and and garbage when it exists.

There is also humor in exposing said garbage to be had.

You haven't made any case, though. You've simply regurgitated what your pedophile priests tell you to say.

 

[SMTA]

You haven't made any case, though. You've simply regurgitated what your pedophile priests tell you to say.

Yup, called it.

You are just spouting lies and trying to agitate.

It is a poor attempt at best.

Very poor.

 

[dadalus]

Yup, called it.

You are just spouting lies and trying to agitate.

It is a poor attempt at best.

Very poor.

What have I lied about?

Come on, man up. Have a little backbone and have the courage to talk about this religion you believe in so deeply.


Come on, God boy, 1 Peter 3:15.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

You haven't made any case, though. You've simply regurgitated what your pedophile priests tell you to say.

Do you have any proof that these priests were pedophiles?

 

[dadalus]

Do you have any proof that these priests were pedophiles?

Way to change the subject. Jesus, dude, grow a pair.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

Way to change the subject. Jesus, dude, grow a pair.

You're the one that made the claim about the Priests being pedophiles. You can't just go around making claims like that without some sort of documentation, some evidence.

Court records?

Affidavits?

Criminal complaints?



Got anything like that?

 

[Thrilla]

Robert Ingersoll (look him up) was a remarkable man and his writings are forceful even 100 years later.

This is one that I think stands out for its force and brevity on how we should actually view the character of Jesus in the Bible.

"IS CHRIST OUR EXAMPLE?

HE never said a word in favor of education. He never even hinted at the existence of any science. He never uttered a word in favor of industry, economy or of any effort to better our condition in this world. He was the enemy of the successful, of the wealthy. Dives was sent to hell, not because he was bad, but because he was rich. Lazarus went to heaven, not because he was good, but because he was poor.

Christ cared nothing for painting, for sculpture, for music—nothing for any art. He said nothing about the duties of nation to nation, of king to subject; nothing about the rights of man; nothing about intellectual liberty or the freedom of speech. He said nothing about the sacredness of home; not one word for the fireside; not a word in favor of marriage, in honor of maternity.

He never married. He wandered homeless from place to place with a few disciples. None of them seem to have been engaged in any useful business, and they seem to have lived on alms.
All human ties were held in contempt; this world was sacrificed for the next; all human effort was discouraged. God would support and protect.
At last, in the dusk of death, Christ, finding that he was mistaken, cried out: "My God! My God! Why hast thou forsaken me?"

We have found that man must depend on himself. He must clear the land; he must build the home; he must plow and plant; he must invent; he must work with hand and brain; he must overcome the difficulties and obstructions; he must conquer and enslave the forces of nature to the end that they may do the work of the world."

Comments, questions or concerns?

Jesus didn't pretend to be an example for anything other than morality and spirituality.

it's a rather hollow argument, and a bit dishonest, to dismiss him on grounds other than what he specifically provided an example for.

 

[Thrilla]

Yup, called it.

You are just spouting lies and trying to agitate.

It is a poor attempt at best.

Very poor.

I was gonna give you kudos for spotting this... but as it's pretty much like spotting the sun at noon, it didn't take much skill :lol:

 

[SMTA]

I was gonna give you kudos for spotting this... but as it's pretty much like spotting the sun at noon, it didn't take much skill :lol:

Like shooting stupid fish in a barrel.

 

[dadalus]

You're the one that made the claim about the Priests being pedophiles. You can't just go around making claims like that without some sort of documentation, some evidence.

Court records?

Affidavits?

Criminal complaints?



Got anything like that?

I amde a lot of claims before, and you refused to address them. How about we start at the beginning and not an obvious dig at the church. Yes, there are pedophiles in the Church, look it up. My reference was to the fact that you heard about Christianity via your pastors. It wasn't a claim about the Church Fathers - who were nutbags in their own right.

Like Paul: he used to drag people from their homes to execute them. Nice.

 

[dadalus]

I was gonna give you kudos for spotting this... but as it's pretty much like spotting the sun at noon, it didn't take much skill :lol:

Again, you offer nothing. What is wrong about what Ingersoll said. You guys are such little weasels. I bet your wives have bigger dicks than you guys.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

I amde a lot of claims before, and you refused to address them. How about we start at the beginning and not an obvious dig at the church. Yes, there are pedophiles in the Church, look it up. My reference was to the fact that you heard about Christianity via your pastors. It wasn't a claim about the Church Fathers - who were nutbags in their own right.

Like Paul: he used to drag people from their homes to execute them. Nice.

Ummm... you may want to pay a little closer attention to who you are responding to. I'm not the same person you were having an exchange with before.

I came in just a few posts ago when I noticed that you made a claim about specific Priests. The exact wording was "your pedophile Priests". I feel it is very important that such serious charges be accompanied with some evidence. Otherwise, it just comes across as idiotic blather and flaming.

So, about that evidence...

 

[dadalus]

Ummm... you may want to pay a little closer attention to who you are responding to. I'm not the same person you were having an exchange with before.

I came in just a few posts ago when I noticed that you made a claim about specific Priests. The exact wording was "your pedophile Priests". I feel it is very important that such serious charges be accompanied with some evidence. Otherwise, it just comes across as idiotic blather and flaming.

So, about that evidence...

Oh, BS, you should be able to discern that it was a jab, and not a serious claim - even though pedophilia has been a major problem in the church ever since Jesus was found with a naked boy.


Here, let me use your style of debate:

"Dur, errr.... you said I "Can't go around making claims" like that. Uh, I just did. So, please prove I can't go around making claims like that. Huh?! Huh!?"

That's the level of debate you guys are engaged in. It's childish.

All because you can't get off your Saviors **** long enough to think straight.

 

[Jack Fabulous]

Oh, BS, you should be able to discern that it was a jab, and not a serious claim - even though pedophilia has been a major problem in the church ever since Jesus was found with a naked boy.

A "jab", eh?

It actually comes across as someone so indoctrinated into his own ideology that he feels entitled to disregard all forms of basic human decency and to treat people with opposing views as less than human. Not to mention that fact that it is juvenile and just down right rude.

Eerily similar to bigotry, when you get right down to it.

 

[dadalus]

A "jab", eh?

It actually comes across as someone so indoctrinated into his own ideology that he feels entitled to disregard all forms of basic human decency and to treat people with opposing views as less than human. Not to mention that fact that it is juvenile and just down right rude.

Eerily similar to bigotry, when you get right down to it.

Oh, the manufactured outrage of the Right. I get it.

Sorry for not being PC enough for you.

Care to address the actual topic?

 

[Jack Fabulous]

Oh, the manufactured outrage of the Right. I get it.

Sorry for not being PC enough for you.

Care to address the actual topic?

The topic became you awhile ago.

 

[Thrilla]

Again, you offer nothing. What is wrong about what Ingersoll said. You guys are such little weasels. I bet your wives have bigger dicks than you guys.

actually, I made an on topic argument... and i'm not surprised you ignored it.