Here's something for gun grabbers to ponder

[Lutherf]

There's a lot of talk about protecting the public from guns and how people who own guns are so much more prone to injury or death by a gun. Well, this study may well show that there's some validity to those concerns though, once again, it doesn't appear that guns themselves are actually the problem.

Transgender Suicide Attempt Rates Are Staggering

According to surveys, 4.6 percent of the overall U.S. population has self-reported a suicide attempt, with that number climbing to between 10 and 20 percent for lesbian, gay or bisexual respondents. By comparison, 41 percent of trans or gender non-conforming people surveyed have attempted suicide.

Now, assuming that this study is assessment of the facts, should we add gender identity to the NICS database and make "non-conforming" individuals prohibited persons? Seems to me that doing so would save some lives and that's what these "common sense" laws are all about, right?

 

[ttwtt78640]

There's a lot of talk about protecting the public from guns and how people who own guns are so much more prone to injury or death by a gun. Well, this study may well show that there's some validity to those concerns though, once again, it doesn't appear that guns themselves are actually the problem.

Transgender Suicide Attempt Rates Are Staggering


Now, assuming that this study is assessment of the facts, should we add gender identity to the NICS database and make "non-conforming" individuals prohibited persons? Seems to me that doing so would save some lives and that's what these "common sense" laws are all about, right?

Hmm... is this yet another appeal for more gun control by one that knows that guns are not the problem?

 

[Hari Seldon]

There's a lot of talk about protecting the public from guns and how people who own guns are so much more prone to injury or death by a gun. Well, this study may well show that there's some validity to those concerns though, once again, it doesn't appear that guns themselves are actually the problem.

Transgender Suicide Attempt Rates Are Staggering


Now, assuming that this study is assessment of the facts, should we add gender identity to the NICS database and make "non-conforming" individuals prohibited persons? Seems to me that doing so would save some lives and that's what these "common sense" laws are all about, right?

Actually having access to the gun makes suicide easier thereby resulting in more deaths. In Australia where they did ban guns the suicide rate went down significantly. Along with mass shootings I believe.

 

[brothern]

Now, assuming that this study is assessment of the facts, should we add gender identity to the NICS database and make "non-conforming" individuals prohibited persons? Seems to me that doing so would save some lives and that's what these "common sense" laws are all about, right?

Your point? LGBTs also have a higher incidence of tobacco use too. However that's not an argument to preserve indoor smoking, is it?

I'd readily support extending strict gun laws to LGBT persons. As long as I got the guarantee to extend it to everyone within an agreed upon time.

 

[NonoBadDog]

There's a lot of talk about protecting the public from guns and how people who own guns are so much more prone to injury or death by a gun. Well, this study may well show that there's some validity to those concerns though, once again, it doesn't appear that guns themselves are actually the problem.

Transgender Suicide Attempt Rates Are Staggering


Now, assuming that this study is assessment of the facts, should we add gender identity to the NICS database and make "non-conforming" individuals prohibited persons? Seems to me that doing so would save some lives and that's what these "common sense" laws are all about, right?

 

[Lutherf]

Your point? LGBTs also have a higher incidence of tobacco use too. However that's not an argument to preserve indoor smoking, is it?

I'd readily support extending strict gun laws to LGBT persons. As long as I got the guarantee to extend it to everyone within an agreed upon time.

Why should everyone be impacted because one group is shown to be more prone to dangerous behavior? We prohibit violent felons from owning guns because they are more dangerous than law abiding citizens so why not apply that same logic to "gender non-conforming" folks?

 

[Lutherf]

Actually having access to the gun makes suicide easier thereby resulting in more deaths. In Australia where they did ban guns the suicide rate went down significantly. Along with mass shootings I believe.

But these studies show that "gender non-conforming" individuals are substantially more prone to intentional self inflicted injury than other groups. We're not talking about 5% more likely to inflict self harm either. We're talking 200-1000% more likely.

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

There's a lot of talk about protecting the public from guns and how people who own guns are so much more prone to injury or death by a gun. Well, this study may well show that there's some validity to those concerns though, once again, it doesn't appear that guns themselves are actually the problem.

Transgender Suicide Attempt Rates Are Staggering


Now, assuming that this study is assessment of the facts, should we add gender identity to the NICS database and make "non-conforming" individuals prohibited persons? Seems to me that doing so would save some lives and that's what these "common sense" laws are all about, right?

Perhaps there should be questions added to the form 4473 check off list regarding people with these attributes. After all, doesn't suicide or attempted suicide qualify as "mental health" issues? And if people are in a high risk category wouldn't preventing them from purchasing firearms be "common sense" gun control?

 

[Hari Seldon]

But these studies show that "gender non-conforming" individuals are substantially more prone to intentional self inflicted injury than other groups. We're not talking about 5% more likely to inflict self harm either. We're talking 200-1000% more likely.

Why is that? Probably because the way society treats them. I can only imagine what it would be like to try and be "cured" of your sexual preference by the religious wingnuts. Might as well try and cure me of my "Jewness". But you are correct, limiting weapons to those more likely to commit suicide would probably save some lives.

 

[Lutherf]

Perhaps there should be questions added to the form 4473 check off list regarding people with these attributes. After all, doesn't suicide or attempted suicide qualify as "mental health" issues? And if people are in a high risk category wouldn't preventing them from purchasing firearms be "common sense" gun control?

Well Sir, that would depend on whether "common sense" is more a matter of public safety or politics. But I think we both know the answer to that.

 

[TurtleDude]

Actually having access to the gun makes suicide easier thereby resulting in more deaths. In Australia where they did ban guns the suicide rate went down significantly. Along with mass shootings I believe.

wow, they banned guns? in reality they had forced buy backs of lots of semi auto rifles, pump shotguns (1996 as a bed wetting response to a massacre) and then 7 years later they had forced buy backs of handguns with short barrels and of heavy (over 9mm or 38 Special) calibers. it appears that the actual number of guns in Australia has increased even though the choice of firearm types and sizes and actions has decreased. But guess what-most suicides with guns involve common handguns and shotguns and those were NOT banned. so the suicide angle basically FAILS to help the gun banner movement

 

[Lutherf]

Why is that? Probably because the way society treats them. I can only imagine what it would be like to try and be "cured" of your sexual preference by the religious wingnuts. Might as well try and cure me of my "Jewness". But you are correct, limiting weapons to those more likely to commit suicide would probably save some lives.

Well now that's an interesting take on things. So you're saying that these "gender non-conforming" folks might be more prone to self harm due to some sort of societal thing. Hmm...I'll buy that for a dollar.

But, now that we're on the subject, doesn't that also mean that it isn't simple possession of a firearm that causes these issues? And if that's the case then shouldn't we be looking at social issues instead of crap like registration and bans if we really want to fix the problem?

 

[TurtleDude]

Your point? LGBTs also have a higher incidence of tobacco use too. However that's not an argument to preserve indoor smoking, is it?

I'd readily support extending strict gun laws to LGBT persons. As long as I got the guarantee to extend it to everyone within an agreed upon time.

wow, another interesting Libertarian perspective. in the last 30 years homosexual male sex has caused more deaths (including many who weren't actual participants such as that poor girl a gay dentist intentionally infected and tennis legend Arthur Ashe who was killed by AIDS contaminated blood after his heart attack transfusion).

perhaps if male gays were required to get checked out by a public health facility before engaging in sex, lots of lives could be spared. and certainly a 24 hour waiting period before sex could take place would cause lots of risky "bareback" sex from taking place on the spur of the moment. a cooling off period might cause potential participants to obtain protection before hooking up.

 

[Hari Seldon]

wow, they banned guns? in reality they had forced buy backs of lots of semi auto rifles, pump shotguns (1996 as a bed wetting response to a massacre) and then 7 years later they had forced buy backs of handguns with short barrels and of heavy (over 9mm or 38 Special) calibers. it appears that the actual number of guns in Australia has increased even though the choice of firearm types and sizes and actions has decreased. But guess what-most suicides with guns involve common handguns and shotguns and those were NOT banned. so the suicide angle basically FAILS to help the gun banner movement

I'm surprised it took you this long to hammer me, its usually within minutes on this topic. I used a poor choice of words in ban, my bad. This was the article i read: Australia gun reform provides an example for the US - Tech Insider

 

[TurtleDude]

I'm surprised it took you this long to hammer me, its usually within minutes on this topic. I used a poor choice of words in ban, my bad. This was the article i read: Australia gun reform provides an example for the US - Tech Insider

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are you telling us that banning some kinds of weapons while not actually decreasing the number of firearms owned is responsible for a decrease in suicides.
the 96 gun ban was pump and semi auto long guns'
what sort of weapons are normally used for suicides?

 

[Hari Seldon]

Well now that's an interesting take on things. So you're saying that these "gender non-conforming" folks might be more prone to self harm due to some sort of societal thing. Hmm...I'll buy that for a dollar.

But, now that we're on the subject, doesn't that also mean that it isn't simple possession of a firearm that causes these issues? And if that's the case then shouldn't we be looking at social issues instead of crap like registration and bans if we really want to fix the problem?

My guess its not just a societal thing, but I'm sure its a factor. No? Why is registering a weapon so bad? Funny I was reading another thread and "sociology" was deemed useless by the people that shall we say lean right. Jays just scored 2, the dome is rockin.

 

[Hari Seldon]

are you telling us that banning some kinds of weapons while not actually decreasing the number of firearms owned is responsible for a decrease in suicides.
the 96 gun ban was pump and semi auto long guns'
what sort of weapons are normally used for suicides?

As Australian economist Andrew Leigh found in a 2010 review of the effects of the gun buyback legislation:

• Firearm suicides have dropped from 2.2 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.8 per 100,000 in 2006.

• Firearm homicides have dropped from 0.37 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2006.

• These are drops of 65% and 59%, respectively, and among a population of 20 million individuals, represent a decline in the number of deaths by firearm suicide of about 300 and in the number of deaths by firearm homicide of about 40 per year.

• At the same time, the non-firearm suicide rate has fallen by 27% and the non-firearm homicide rate by 59%.


If you think there is no correlation between the gun buyback program and reduced homicides and suicides that is your prerogative.

 

[TurtleDude]

As Australian economist Andrew Leigh found in a 2010 review of the effects of the gun buyback legislation:

• Firearm suicides have dropped from 2.2 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.8 per 100,000 in 2006.

• Firearm homicides have dropped from 0.37 per 100,000 people in 1995 to 0.15 per 100,000 people in 2006.

• These are drops of 65% and 59%, respectively, and among a population of 20 million individuals, represent a decline in the number of deaths by firearm suicide of about 300 and in the number of deaths by firearm homicide of about 40 per year.

• At the same time, the non-firearm suicide rate has fallen by 27% and the non-firearm homicide rate by 59%.


If you think there is no correlation between the gun buyback program and reduced homicides and suicides that is your prerogative.

but is there any evidence that program decreased the actual NUMBER vs TYPES of guns available? maybe Serenity can tell us what is the most common firearm choice for suicide in Australia. If those were taken away you might have a point. But based on my experience its generally 38 caliber or 9mm handguns or shotguns. and its not generally dependent on multiple shots in a magazine

I didn't get home until about 8PM tonight EDST

 

[Hari Seldon]

but is there any evidence that program decreased the actual NUMBER vs TYPES of guns available? maybe Serenity can tell us what is the most common firearm choice for suicide in Australia. If those were taken away you might have a point. But based on my experience its generally 38 caliber or 9mm handguns or shotguns. and its not generally dependent on multiple shots in a magazine

I didn't get home until about 8PM tonight EDST

I freely admit I am no gun expert and you are probably correct about hand guns and suicide. Nevertheless there was a significant drop in deaths from guns after the buyback program. Maybe the total amount of guns stayed the same, I really don't know. Do you have a better explanation for the drop?

Long day? I knew there was a reason you didn't post sooner.

 

[TurtleDude]

I freely admit I am no gun expert and you are probably correct about hand guns and suicide. Nevertheless there was a significant drop in deaths from guns after the buyback program. Maybe the total amount of guns stayed the same, I really don't know. Do you have a better explanation for the drop?

Long day? I knew there was a reason you didn't post sooner.

not really but I have weekly PT around 530 and then a set squash game from 6-715 and its a half hour drive to the house from the club

I am retired but that period of time has been dedicated to both activities for at least a decade IIRC

 

[Hari Seldon]

not really but I have weekly PT around 530 and then a set squash game from 6-715 and its a half hour drive to the house from the club

I am retired but that period of time has been dedicated to both activities for at least a decade IIRC

Its good to keep active. I bowl Tues & Wed. I need to get back playing tennis. Played since I was 8 including for my highschool and college. I'm sure I tore something as my shoulder would always hurt especially when I served. Never played squash, looks like fun. Raquetball was a good workout.

 

[TurtleDude]

Its good to keep active. I bowl Tues & Wed. I need to get back playing tennis. Played since I was 8 including for my highschool and college. I'm sure I tore something as my shoulder would always hurt especially when I served. Never played squash, looks like fun. Raquetball was a good workout.

must have been pretty good to play college tennis. I played for my college squash team off and on (I was also on the shooting team trying to make the 80 games so I took a couple years off to train for that) then I coached at law school. ok tennis player but not college level even at my best-ran track in HS rather than play tennis

 

[Hari Seldon]

must have been pretty good to play college tennis. I played for my college squash team off and on (I was also on the shooting team trying to make the 80 games so I took a couple years off to train for that) then I coached at law school. ok tennis player but not college level even at my best-ran track in HS rather than play tennis

I wish I was in better shape to run track back then, would have helped my singles game. i was probably a 4.5 at my best, maybe a little better in doubles. Good serve, forehand and volley, backhand sucked. Could hide it in doubles. Community college and D3. We did play St. Johns (D1) over at the tennis center in Queens. Got crushed but it was very cool to play there. Hard to concentrate on Tennis while studying for the CPA exam.

 

[TurtleDude]

I wish I was in better shape to run track back then, would have helped my singles game. i was probably a 4.5 at my best, maybe a little better in doubles. Good serve, forehand and volley, backhand sucked. Could hide it in doubles. Community college and D3. We did play St. Johns (D1) over at the tennis center in Queens. Got crushed but it was very cool to play there. Hard to concentrate on Tennis while studying for the CPA exam.

a guy I grew up with (a few years older than me) was the #1 at columbia and the Ivy player of the year and I believe he lost to Tanner in the NCAA finals. He was good enough to be #1 on a team that had Vitas Geruliatis behind him (Vitas turned pro not long after starting college). This guy's son plays for a D-III school (Brandeis) and he is really good. back when I was in HS, this boy would have played for a major league D-1 school but in the last 30 years the competition has become so fierce that even small colleges are stocked. another guy I grew up with had a son ranked about 80th nationally and this boy went to the #2 D-III school (Claremont California) a former touring pro noted that lots of really good players are ending up in D-III schools so they can start 4 years rather than playing second fiddle to the foreigners who tend to dominate the top level slots at places like Illinois or Florida etc

 

[Μολὼν λαβέ]

Well Sir, that would depend on whether "common sense" is more a matter of public safety or politics. But I think we both know the answer to that.

I know, I know, dems wouldn't want to alienate any part of their base with "common sense" gun control.