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Evidence The Titanic Was Sunk on Purpose (1 Viewer)

Nothing till you answer my questions to you. Find the ones I posted regarding James Cameron.
I told you in post #420 that I'd dealt with that in post #400.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-40.html#post1064914029


Until you get some proof of your beliefs, the presiding story stands. No matter HOW much you cry that other scenarios are possible, without supporting evidence, you've got nothing.
You're not using the scientific method. You're blindly believing the official story.

Anyway, you pretty much showed that you're a sophist by your lame response to Fledermaus's post a while back.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-42.html#post1064914735

You're unfit to deal with conspiracies.
 
I missed that. Could you link to it?

Post #51 - but when responding to me in future don't remove my name from the quote or I won't get notification you responded and may not see it. Just an FYI.

I guess I'd have to go there and check it out myself. I'm not in a position to be able to do that now though. It may turn out that it shows the propeller from the Titanic was never put on the Olympic and it may show that it was.

It's also possible that the record was falsified shortly after the scam. The ink could be tested and it's date could probably be determined within a few years but not enough to rule out falsification. I don't see how looking at those records would be one hundred percent conclusive.

All of the records are there and many writers, researchers, historians and hobbyists have poured through them over the years. The only folks who don't bother seem to be the ones pushing the CT's. But all of this rather misses the point.

It seems to me that if White Star wanted to lose money in an insurance scam with the RMS Olympic they would have just used the RMS Olympic as the RMS Olympic. She had after all sailed to New York just days ahead of Titanic and was only about 500 miles away from Titanic on the return trip at the time of the sinking. Only someone engaging in pathological speculation trying to retrofit the evidence to fit a crackpot theory would come up with this silly switch plan.

Real people making real decisions in the real world would have dismissed such a proposal as crazy and unworkable from the outset (much like say,... planting malicious demolition devices in the World Trade Center prior to crashing airplanes into it).


The whole boats were switched fallacy is based on working the problem backwards using mislabeled photo's, misunderstood artifacts, a botched understanding of the timeline and a highly dubious and exceedingly implausible motive. Like all CT's this one is based on taking a few individual anomalies out of context, claiming that proves some vast plot that you cooked up then challenging others to prove you wrong rather than making a comprehensive case that can stand on its own based on everything we know.

Try working the problem from front to back for a change.

Lets say you are White Star president Bruce Ismay and you have decided (against all evidence) that Olympic is no longer economically viable because she suffered some moderate damage in a collision with a Royal Navy cruiser (which was successfully repaired). Even though we have zero evidence this is the case we will run with that for now.

Do you:

1. File an claim with your insurers, declaring the ship a constructive total loss due to the known damage, collect your claim and then sell the ship for scrap to make up the loss since the ship is under-insured.

2. Rig the ship to suffer a catastrophic accident, preferably in port or in dockyard where she will sink and/or catch fire, ideally with as few people aboard as possible to reduce collateral damage and litigation opportunities.

3. Concoct an elaborate plan where you switch the ship with the Titanic that of necessity has to include:
A. Weeks of expensive yard time for both vessels to make the alterations necessary for each to look like the other
B. Paying off the thousands of workers in the yard to not say anything as well as ships company
C. Pay off anyone in Belfast with a camera not to take pictures of the process.
D. Pay off anyone in Belfast who might have noticed that the two ships switched berths overnight while no one was looking.
Then drive the clandestinely re-named Olympic into an iceberg field in the middle of the night hoping it will hit one AND hoping the ship (considered unsinkable remember) will sink from it - all with thousands of potential litigants on board. And oh yeah, you, Bruce Ismay book passage on the ship knowing it is going to sink and knowing there are insufficient lifeboats for everyone aboard. All this of course while the Olympic,...er, excuse me, the "real Titanic" is just a few hundred miles away crossing the Atlantic in the other direction.

IF you picked #3 I hope you have a good justification.

I mean, if you want to get rid of Olympic for insurance money, why not just get rid of Olympic for insurance money? Why the massively convoluted, complex, ridiculously expensive, very high risk and massively implausible switch plan? Of the above options is that really the one you would do if it was you making the calls?
 
I told you in post #420 that I'd dealt with that in post #400.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-40.html#post1064914029



You're not using the scientific method. You're blindly believing the official story.

Anyway, you pretty much showed that you're a sophist by your lame response to Fledermaus's post a while back.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-42.html#post1064914735

You're unfit to deal with conspiracies.

Your post 400 quote, "It's plausible that they did but the mainstream would never report something like that. People who know too much usually don't speak out as they know they or their loved ones may have "Accidents", or die in "Robberies", or "Commit suicide" if they do."

How does that address what I asked you about James Cameron and his documentary?
Cameron is still alive.
MSM and PBS reported his findings. PBS aired his documentary.

You should admit you really have nothing to go on and you have been taken in by the sites you use for information.
 
43 pages and the best we got from them is "I don't know which ones are pics from the Titanic and which are from the Olympic, so maybe the Ct might possibly be true"
Or in other words NADA
 
Mark F

I mean, if you want to get rid of Olympic for insurance money, why not just get rid of Olympic for insurance money? Why the massively convoluted, complex, ridiculously expensive, very high risk and massively implausible switch plan? Of the above options is that really the one you would do if it was you making the calls?
If I remember correctly, after the accident, they couldn't insure the Olympic for very much.

This question is for you too Mark.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-43.html#post1064918002
 
If I remember correctly, after the accident, they couldn't insure the Olympic for very much.

This question is for you too Mark.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-43.html#post1064918002

No.

I'm not playing whack-a-mole over trivial details. Prima facie this idea fails before it even launches. It begins with the false starting assumption then goes downhill from there. Nothing about this fantasy makes the slightest bit of sense. No one - in their right mind or otherwise - would go ahead with such a ridiculously unworkable proposal. Stop obsessing over windows and look at the big picture for once.
 
I said this in post #419.
I realized something I should have realized a long time ago.


Regarding the issue of the number 401 on the propeller of the wreck:

Evidence The Titanic Was Sunk on Purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_d_GEy8lr0
(8:41 time mark)


It's possible that they really put Titanic's propeller on the Olympic after its own had been damaged and the propeller had the number 401 stamped on it. When the Titanic was later ready they would have put a propeller with the number 401 on it too. Therefore, the number 401 on the wreck can't be used as evidence of a switch as both ships would have had the number 401 on their starboard propellers. This doesn't debunk the switch theory though as we still don't know whether the Titanic's propeller was really put on the Olympic. If it can be proven that it wasn't, it will debunk the switch theory. I don't know how it can be proven though. Records can be manipulated.

You said this in post #420.
Mark F

Since I brought up that very issue about 2 weeks ago all I can say is better late than never. Progress is progress, however slow.

In post #421 I said this.
I missed that. Could you link to it?

Then you said this.

Here's what you said in post #51.
Olympic IIRC borrowed a propeller shaft, not a propeller from the allotment meant for Titanic after the collision with the Royal Navy Edgar class Protected Cruiser (not Destroyer) HMS Hawke. One of Olympic's outboard shafts was bent in the collision. About 6 months later Olympic suffered a prop blade failure when on a return trip from New York. This prop was on the central shaft (driven by turbines not reciprocating engines and therefore of different configuration). Olympic at the time of Titanic's sinking had a 4-bladed propeller on her central shaft and this was still fitted at the time of her refit later that year. Titanic according to the builders notes and design drawings was specified with having a very different 3-bladed prop on the central shaft (as an experiment to compare performance to Olympic). Titanic's central shaft prop is not visible at the wreck site.

401 was the yard number. Olympic was a product of yard 400, Titanic of yard 401. Even if a replacement prop had to be made for Olympic because she borrowed one from Titanic the replacement would have been made for Yard 401 and to the design specified for Titanic, which had a different pitch compared to Olympic. But none of that really matters as the wing props were not switched.

At the time of Titanic's sinking Olympic was in the Atlantic on a return trip from New York and was one of the ships that attempted to join the rescue of survivors - but was too late and never made it to the scene.



I could probably keep going but what for? Whoever wrote the crap in the attached image didn't do their homework.

You did not address the point that I made in post #419.


(from post #431)
Mark F

No.

I'm not playing whack-a-mole over trivial details. Prima facie this idea fails before it even launches. It begins with the false starting assumption then goes downhill from there. Nothing about this fantasy makes the slightest bit of sense. No one - in their right mind or otherwise - would go ahead with such a ridiculously unworkable proposal. Stop obsessing over windows and look at the big picture for once.

I'm not sure which part of my post you're responding to as your post is a little vague. Anyway, your argument in post #427 seems to assume that the Olympic could have been insured for the same amount that for which it could have been if the accident hadn't happened. If that's not the case, your whole argument falls apart. If I'm missing something, tell me. Sometimes I drink too much coffee.


Your refusal to address this is very telling.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-43.html#post1064918002

If you speak frankly and say that Fledermous's post was lame, you'll be hurting the credibility of your cause. If you say it wasn't lame, you'll be hurting the credibility of your cause and your own credibility. If you're not a sophist trying to control the damage done by truthers, you'll simply give a frank answer. The frank answer is obviously that Fledermous's post was very lame. His credibility is destroyed as is gamolon's for trying to play it down instead of speaking frankly. I'm still waiting for zyzygy to answer but I think he'll just keep tap dancing around it too.


There doesn't seem to be anything conclusive that proves the case either way right now but the fact that there are so many people who behave like sophists attacking the conspiracy scenario suggests that it reflects reality. If a conspiracy theory is false, the government won't assign so many sophists to try to discredit it.
 
Yeah I did address it. Olympic borrowed a propeller SHAFT, not a propeller.
 
Yeah I did address it. Olympic borrowed a propeller SHAFT, not a propeller.

If you maintain that the above addresses this point...
Regarding the issue of the number 401 on the propeller of the wreck:

Evidence The Titanic Was Sunk on Purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_d_GEy8lr0
(8:41 time mark)


It's possible that they really put Titanic's propeller on the Olympic after its own had been damaged and the propeller had the number 401 stamped on it. When the Titanic was later ready they would have put a propeller with the number 401 on it too. Therefore, the number 401 on the wreck can't be used as evidence of a switch as both ships would have had the number 401 on their starboard propellers. This doesn't debunk the switch theory though as we still don't know whether the Titanic's propeller was really put on the Olympic. If it can be proven that it wasn't, it will debunk the switch theory. I don't know how it can be proven though. Records can be manipulated.

...you're just playing games. It obviously doesn't address the point I raised. You're behaving like a checkmated sophist.
 
If you maintain that the above addresses this point...


...you're just playing games. It obviously doesn't address the point I raised. You're behaving like a checkmated sophist.

He is not. You are behaving like an uninformed conspiracy theorist. And sophist does not mean what you think it means.
 
If you maintain that the above addresses this point...


...you're just playing games. It obviously doesn't address the point I raised. You're behaving like a checkmated sophist.

Olympic borrowed a propeller SHAFT, not a propeller. It doesn't matter what :censored number was on the prop (wasn't even the right prop) since that isn't the relevant part!

What part of that do you not get??????
 
How many sophists has Gardiner hired to publicize his silly book?
 
When caught in a lie, muddy the waters.

There's a point at which things are so clear that sophistry becomes ineffective.
http://www.debatepolitics.com/consp...e-titanic-sunk-purpose-44.html#post1064926415


You did not address the point I made.

The point you made is irrelevant. There was no propeller swap. Olympic borrowed a propeller SHAFT not a propeller.

The yard number observed on the wreck site (which is not even on the same shaft that was damaged on Olympic BTW) is 401, which is Titanic's yard number.

There is nothing to discuss.
 
I just came across this video.

Evidence The Titanic Was Sunk on Purpose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_d_GEy8lr0



They do make a good case. I'm going to sit on the fence for now but if I had to stake my life on it, I'd bet the people who made the video are right.


Check out what is said about the portholes at the 10:00 time mark. Some good points are made at the 47:46 time mark too. Their info about the number on the propeller, the portholes, etc has to be verified I suppose. If it turns out to be true, it closes the case.


Just another nutty conspiracy theory.
 
Once again....

What lie?

Please be clear and concise. SPELL IT OUT.

What lie?

Your link does not show a lie.
This is how sophists behave when they're cornered. They just deny the obvious. This thread is turning out to be a good study of sophistry.
 
This is how sophists behave when they're cornered. They just deny the obvious. This thread is turning out to be a good study of sophistry.

Yes it is but I have this strange feeling you don't really know who is doing it.
 
This is how sophists behave when they're cornered. They just deny the obvious. This thread is turning out to be a good study of sophistry.

And that is a poor attempt at evasion. Fled asked you a question. Sophistry requires an argument. You are trying with some desperation apparently to avoid the question.

Can you concisely answer Fled's question in your own words and preferably without having to link to some other post so the discussion can either move forward or die a deserving death?
 

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