Evidence that Man wrote the Bible, not God.

[chromium]

So what was edited? What wasn't? What was cut? What wasn't? The Bible itself was written by those powerful men, supposedly using accounts written by other men. Who's what where? Know what I mean?

Council of Nicea decided what to include. Numerous 'gospels' were excluded. How man can decide such a thing? Whatever fits the prejudices of the ruling class back then got included in the bible everyone today has read. Same with KJV and i'm sure other editions.

Also anything that's translated from a dead language to another dead language (aramaic to latin for example) is going to have way less resemblance to modern english than most christians will admit. You'd think 'god' if he was the author would at least see to it there's one freaking translation everyone can read and agree on.

This is what leads to such an absurd number of religions claiming the same origin (protestant, catholic etc etc), yet unable to agree on basic principles, that none of them are believable.

 

[chromium]

It isn't "magic". It's a difference in the manner in which some people are able to perceive and understand what is around them. Some of us who have religious inclinations believe that there is more to reality than what we can sense with the five senses, because we ourselves have experienced it. It is nothing that can be proven to you (or anyone else), but we don't all perceive the same reality, though most of us would be considered rational human beings.

From what i recall of basic psychology, only irrational humans claim to perceive more than 5 senses.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

We all know today that there is no such thing as magic and there never has been. Despite what people believed 2000 years ago or even 200 years ago. And yet the bible, both new and old, mentions magic several times either by mentioning certain people (Egypts Pharoh who's magicians couldn't tell him the meaning of his dreams so he called for Joseph for instance) or by simply saying to not associate with such as practice "sorcery".

Why would God, who people say wrote the bible even mention sorcery if such a thing does not exist?

49 Bible Verses about Magic

What makes you think that sorcery didn't exist?

I was raised in the church and led to believe that it did exist - it was done by tapping into 'the dark' arts. Meaning: magicians made a pact with the Devil (etc). Read into that and you realize that the church recognized magic as being real - but channeling the Devil's power.

And note - all too often in the Bible magic is not sufficient, the holy acts of God are more than sufficient (The example you give of Joseph and the dream is this way- and there are others like turning water-to-wine. That was amid sort of a standoff of the 'magicians' and 'the power of god' - of course 'God's power' won out.)

 

[chromium]

If you fully believe in God, then you believe there is a spiritual, supernatural component to the universe.

How then do you assert with absolute certainty that there is not and never has been "magic"... that is to say, attempts by human beings to engage the supernatural component of the universe through ritual means?



Edited to add: think on that a bit. Past my bedtime.

Attempts? Sure. The mentally ill try it all the time.

Success? Same way i rest assured that no kangaroo has ever resurrected or cured the blind.

 

[Jerry]

We all know today that there is no such thing as magic and there never has been. Despite what people believed 2000 years ago or even 200 years ago. And yet the bible, both new and old, mentions magic several times either by mentioning certain people (Egypts Pharoh who's magicians couldn't tell him the meaning of his dreams so he called for Joseph for instance) or by simply saying to not associate with such as practice "sorcery".

Why would God, who people say wrote the bible even mention sorcery if such a thing does not exist?

49 Bible Verses about Magic

Because such a thing exists.

Magic is just something you can't explain. Magnets were once magic until we could explain it.

Unless you think we know everything, magic (ie things we cant explain) exists.

 

[DDD]

Nope.

Wasn't really my point anyway.

My point is that you can't prove there was NEVER such a thing in the world... can you?

Now, appealing to the unknown is a logical fallacy Goshin. It just open magical doors on its own.

If that is enough for you to believe that there is your magic "because it might have existed before" then I could (if wanted to continue with the logical fallacy) make a statement that "magic comes from the core of the world." Since we did not visited it there, thus cannot know, it is not sufficient to state that "magic exists" is it?

 

[DDD]

And on top of that, even if it was fake, it was typically associated with imploring aid from supernatural beings that were not God, therefore a form of idolatry.

What non-anecdotal evidence is there that: a) Supernatural beings existed, b) that God existed/exists, c) that the two were different, d) that they were associated, and e) that they were imploring?

 

[Kal'Stang]

What makes you think that sorcery didn't exist?

I was raised in the church and led to believe that it did exist - it was done by tapping into 'the dark' arts. Meaning: magicians made a pact with the Devil (etc). Read into that and you realize that the church recognized magic as being real - but channeling the Devil's power.

And note - all too often in the Bible magic is not sufficient, the holy acts of God are more than sufficient (The example you give of Joseph and the dream is this way- and there are others like turning water-to-wine. That was amid sort of a standoff of the 'magicians' and 'the power of god' - of course 'God's power' won out.)

Because if magic did exist back then, it would exist now, after all, the Devil is still around isn't he? There are still people that willingly worship him...I don't see any of them performing magic.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Because such a thing exists.

Magic is just something you can't explain. Magnets were once magic until we could explain it.

Unless you think we know everything, magic (ie things we cant explain) exists.

If it exists then you can prove it right?

As for your example, thats not magic, that's science. I doubt very seriously that God would confuse magic and science. Unless it is your contention that God did not want us to use science? If so....everyone on this planet with the possible exception of those in 3rd world countries is guilty of using "magic".

 

[Kal'Stang]

What non-anecdotal evidence is there that: a) Supernatural beings existed, b) that God existed/exists, c) that the two were different, d) that they were associated, and e) that they were imploring?

This thread is not about whether God exists or not. It is about the bible. Please stay on topic.

 

[Aunt Spiker]

Because if magic did exist back then, it would exist now, after all, the Devil is still around isn't he? There are still people that willingly worship him...I don't see any of them performing magic.

Who says it doesn't exist now?

Just because you don't believe in it doesn't mean scores of thousands don't. You can no sooner disprove God - I don't happen to believe in him, either, but there's always the chance I'm wrong.

 

[lizzie]

There is only one reality. If you're perceiving something that no one else is, you're far more likely mistaken or crazy than tapping into some higher existence. Apply some Occam's Razor.

Also, how exactly did you observe this? Do you have some kind of ESP? What makes you think you have greater abilities of perception than others?



.

I didn't say that I have greater perceptive abilities. I said that some of us perceive differently. Reality is dependent on who is perceiving it. We all have our own lenses through which we view the world.

 

[LowDown]

I fully believe in God. I just don't believe that He wrote the Bible. Man did. Particularly greedy, power hungry men.

The Christian tradition is that the Bible was inspired by God, meaning that its writing, composition and editing was guided by Him through the witness of the Holy Spirit in the lives of innumerable believers and saints. Those who don't have the gift of faith of course have no faith in this tradition, and so they are naturally going to be distrustful and suspicious.

 

[Jerry]

If it exists then you can prove it right?

The thing I'm claiming to exist is our inability to explain how something happens or operates. That science perpetually discovers how things work proves that there are still things we can't explain yet. "Magic" is just a midevil term for "unexplained". As soon as we can explain it, it isn't magic anymore.

As for your example, that's not magic, that's science.

Magic is the state of not knowing how it works. Science is discovering how it works. Science removes magic by expanding knowledge. If God exists and has perfect knowledge, then to God there is no magic. To God everything conforms to a rational, predictable construct of physical laws.

I doubt very seriously that God would confuse magic and science.

If God exists then God would of course have a greater knowledge of how everything works than we do, and so many things God does would appear to be magic to us, because we can't explain them. To God it's perfectly rational science, though.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
~~ Arthur C. Clarke

Unless it is your contention that...

It is not. I have made no statement or inference as to God's desires one way or another.

 

[lizzie]

So what was edited? What wasn't? What was cut? What wasn't? The Bible itself was written by those powerful men, supposedly using accounts written by other men. Who's what where? Know what I mean?

Yes, I do know what you mean. The point I was making is that I believe the original texts were likely written by people who believed they were inspired by God, and that there was no ill intent, nor attempts to grab power or money.

 

[Jerry]

The Christian tradition is that the Bible was inspired by God, meaning that its writing, composition and editing was guided by Him through the witness of the Holy Spirit in the lives of innumerable believers and saints. Those who don't have the gift of faith of course have no faith in this tradition, and so they are naturally going to be distrustful and suspicious.

As evidence of God-inspired, how could a bronze age civilization have gotten the order of life forming on earth correct, if it wasn't given to them?

 

[Paschendale]

I didn't say that I have greater perceptive abilities. I said that some of us perceive differently. Reality is dependent on who is perceiving it. We all have our own lenses through which we view the world.

No, it is not. Reality is reality. It doesn't change based on how we feel about it. We can perceive the world differently, but if we don't view it as it actually is, we're just wrong.

As evidence of God-inspired, how could a bronze age civilization have gotten the order of life forming on earth correct, if it wasn't given to them?

They didn't. The left out most of the various kinds of creatures in this world. And nearly every civilization's myths, including the ones that you don't think were inspired by your god, knew that life came from the oceans, creatures walked before they flew (a progression away from the oceans) and that humans were fairly new. Fish >> land animals >> birds >> humans. It's something that people knew long before the Jews were writing their myth. And of course, none of them knew about dinosaurs or bacteria or anything else they weren't directly able to observe.

There's no god-given knowledge in there, just basic human perception.

 

[Slyhunter]

Because if magic did exist back then, it would exist now, after all, the Devil is still around isn't he? There are still people that willingly worship him...I don't see any of them performing magic.

If you had as much faith as a mustard seed you could move a mountain.
Seen any mountains move lately?

 

[Slyhunter]

The Christian tradition is that the Bible was inspired by God, meaning that its writing, composition and editing was guided by Him through the witness of the Holy Spirit in the lives of innumerable believers and saints. Those who don't have the gift of faith of course have no faith in this tradition, and so they are naturally going to be distrustful and suspicious.

Does that include the part where the Israelites were required to rape and marry virgin daughters of those they killed for not believe in their God? How about all the pregnant women where they were required to take a sword to their stomach to insure they wouldn't bear any infidels wanting revenge.

 

[Goshin]

If the words do not mean the same now as they did back then, then the bible is not accurate, which again, if God had written it, inspired it, guided peoples hands in it, it would be accurate. So...which is it? Is the bible accurate now and as such written by God? Or was it written by man and the meaning of the words have changed? Or do you believe that God does not guide the writing of the Bible anymore?

Also, sorcery is not associated with spirits, just energy that is around us.



Magic is observable, it has effects which can be seen, felt, tasted, and even smelled. One does not have to believe in both God and magic. The two are mutally exclusive. Now, I've answered your question, can you answer mine?

You sound as if you consider yourself expert on the subject of magic, and desire to define it according to your own terms. Sorcery is a term that was used in the King James translation, and translations can be somewhat inexact. This is why I go to the Greek or Hebrew when there is something important about which I am uncertain.

Biblically, the practices being spoken of typically involved the invocation of pagan "gods" or demonic forces, or "spirits"... or arguably in one case the making of poisons for nefarious purpose.

 

[LowDown]

If you had as much faith as a mustard seed you could move a mountain.
Seen any mountains move lately?

Does strip mining count? :2razz:

 

[LowDown]

Does that include the part where the Israelites were required to rape and marry virgin daughters of those they killed for not believe in their God? How about all the pregnant women where they were required to take a sword to their stomach to insure they wouldn't bear any infidels wanting revenge.

War is Hell.

Non-believers just make a mess of things when they try to interpret the Bible. Suffice to say that a believer's understanding of God doesn't necessarily come from a literal reading of such passages in the Bible. When Christians hear non-believers huffing and puffing about things like that they usually just roll their eyes and walk away, which is perhaps what I should be doing.

 

[Kal'Stang]

The Christian tradition is that the Bible was inspired by God, meaning that its writing, composition and editing was guided by Him through the witness of the Holy Spirit in the lives of innumerable believers and saints. Those who don't have the gift of faith of course have no faith in this tradition, and so they are naturally going to be distrustful and suspicious.

So what you're trying to say here is that I have no faith in God because I don't think that he wrote the bible? This is where you are wrong. You see God also gave Man free will. That free will also includes the ability to edit and change or make the Bible into something He never meant it to be.

 

[Kal'Stang]

The thing I'm claiming to exist is our inability to explain how something happens or operates. That science perpetually discovers how things work proves that there are still things we can't explain yet. "Magic" is just a midevil term for "unexplained". As soon as we can explain it, it isn't magic anymore.

Whether its something that is unexplained or not doesn't make it magic. Your contention here is that those that "used magic" way back then was just using science, but called it magic because it was not understood. But by using that science (called magic) it was "unclean" or "the devils work". Which would make science unclean.

Magic is the state of not knowing how it works. Science is discovering how it works. Science removes magic by expanding knowledge. If God exists and has perfect knowledge, then to God there is no magic. To God everything conforms to a rational, predictable construct of physical laws.

Then why would God put the word "magic" (or its various terms) in the Bible?

If God exists then God would of course have a greater knowledge of how everything works than we do, and so many things God does would appear to be magic to us, because we can't explain them. To God it's perfectly rational science, though.

See above.

It is not. I have made no statement or inference as to God's desires one way or another.

But that is the inference of your statement. Whether you meant it or not, its there.

 

[Kal'Stang]

Yes, I do know what you mean. The point I was making is that I believe the original texts were likely written by people who believed they were inspired by God, and that there was no ill intent, nor attempts to grab power or money.

Then we're not really talking about the Bible are we? We're talking about the texts that existed before the bible was made. The original authors.