• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Equal Accountability Equals Equality

Which time frame?
America covers a large part of history?

So you're not going with approx 300 yrs of American history? Ok.

I think you're done. Let me know if you think you'd like to participate further.
 
My argument is that women weren't on the back burner of history and it's actually insulting to insist as much.
It robs agency of women and the actual real important historical role they played in the world.
It also poorly characterizes the role that most men played, that being in equal poverty with women, not lording over them.

Comparing civil rights for Blacks to Women, is a bit of a stretch.
Blacks were slaves, White women, were largely not.

Is feminism about gender equality or is it about rights and privileges for women?

Who says we're were on any back burner?

And your statement re: women not being slaves, even in America, is almost 100% wrong. Women in America have been chattel, property, with practically no rights of their own if a male relative said otherwise. Few to no protections from physical abuse and even death. The only thing that wouldnt hold true is that technically women couldnt be sold as property. But they AND all their 'property' could be 'bought' by marriage. And women couldnt even own property without a male relative having final say over it.

Thanks, that statement you made cleared up alot.


Women are equal to men and deserve the same recognition and opportunities.
 
I don't believe it to be balanced, largely by the actions of feminists.
The general narrative is "Women have problems, men are problems."

It's group that seems to want to be divisive.

If you say you're for equality, that means you need to address situations outside of those that affect you and your group.
Not just give lip service to it.

Feminists only care about inequalities when they effect woman and at their best they don't care when inequalities effect men and at their worst feminists look at inequalities effecting men as victories for women, such as the post secondary achievement gap in education.

How can a movement say it stands for equality when it looks at inequalities as victories?
 
Last edited:
Who says we're were on any back burner?

And your statement re: women not being slaves, even in America, is almost 100% wrong. Women in America have been chattel, property, with practically no rights of their own if a male relative said otherwise. Few to no protections from physical abuse and even death. The only thing that wouldnt hold true is that technically women couldnt be sold as property. But they AND all their 'property' could be 'bought' by marriage. And women couldnt even own property without a male relative having final say over it.

Thanks, that statement you made cleared up alot.


Women are equal to men and deserve the same recognition and opportunities.

Where aren't women equal to men in the Western world today? Where are women denied recognition and opportunities in the western world because they're women today?

In the past men were also treated as, "chattel" they had to register for selective service and could be drafted and made to do things that were no choice of their own.

In the past, were women required to register for the draft?
 
Last edited:
Where aren't women equal to men in the Western world today? Where are women denied recognition and opportunities in the western world because they're women today?

In the past men were also treated as, "chattel" they had to register for selective service and could be drafted and made to do things that were no choice of their own.

In the past, were women required to register for the draft?

Didnt your OP have a laundry list of things with the specific purpose of demonstrating that women are not treated equally?
 
Didnt your OP have a laundry list of things with the specific purpose of demonstrating that women are not treated equally?

I love how people on this site ignore your questions and also your studies

No amount of evidence matters to feminists. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is.

I was asking you where women are not treated equally today in the western world in your opinion.

I already know and I think a consensus has been reached by everyone posting in this thread that women are not held equally accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices as men.

Women tend to CHOOSE to study things at university that result in them being qualified for less lucrative careers when they graduate, and this is men's fault??? That's not accountability.

A women goes to a bar, drinks, has sex and regrets the sex the next day so according to feminists this is rape??? That's not accountability.

When women committ the same crimes as men they recieve 63% reduced sentences after being many times less likely to even be prosecuted in the first place when they're arrested??? That's not accountability.

A women has consensual sex and gets pregnant because she didn't use birth control and she doesn't want to be inconveinienced with a pregnancy so she has an abortion?? That's not accountability.

As an egalitarian, I believe people should be held equally accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices regardless of their race and gender.

As a feminist, do you disagree?
 
I love how people on this site ignore your questions and also your studies

No amount of evidence matters to feminists. It doesn't matter how good the evidence is.

I was asking you where women are not treated equally today in the western world in your opinion.

I already know and I think a consensus has been reached by everyone posting in this thread that women are not held equally accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices as men.

Women tend to CHOOSE to study things at university that result in them being qualified for less lucrative careers when they graduate, and this is men's fault??? That's not accountability.

A women goes to a bar, drinks, has sex and regrets the sex the next day so according to feminists this is rape??? That's not accountability.

When women committ the same crimes as men they recieve 63% reduced sentences after being many times less likely to even be prosecuted in the first place when they're arrested??? That's not accountability.

A women has consensual sex and gets pregnant because she didn't use birth control and she doesn't want to be inconveinienced with a pregnancy so she has an abortion?? That's not accountability.

As an egalitarian, I believe people should be held equally accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices regardless of their race and gender.

As a feminist, do you disagree?

I'm not a feminist by any standard that you seem to be using. LOLOLOL I believe that women are equal to men and deserve the same recognition and opportunities. If that makes me a feminist, great. It applies to most Americans of both genders too!

And Smoke and Mirror answered all those questions already, as did Nilly. Most of it regarding accountability is just your opinion anyway. If men get pregnant and want to have abortions, I fully support their unilateral decisions to have them.

And women are not remotely responsible for any kind of conviction rate in this country...that you believe so shows just how poorly you mentally assimilate data.
 
I'm not a feminist by any standard that you seem to be using. LOLOLOL I believe that women are equal to men and deserve the same recognition and opportunities. If that makes me a feminist, great. It applies to most Americans of both genders too!

And Smoke and Mirror answered all those questions already, as did Nilly. Most of it regarding accountability is just your opinion anyway. If men get pregnant and want to have abortions, I fully support their unilateral decisions to have them.

And women are not remotely responsible for any kind of conviction rate in this country...that you believe so shows just how poorly you mentally assimilate data.

So you're saying feminists don't vote??? So you're saying Sonia Sotomeyer is not a female supreme court justice??? So your saying juries are not composed of women, only men??? So you're saying there is no such thing as female attorny's and judges, only male attorney's and judges??? So you're saying there are no female journalistts, only male journalists???

Where's your evidence for these claims???

So, you're saying it's all men's fault???

That's not accountability.

If feminism is an equality movement, then why don't we hear feminists complaining about the sentencing gap at least as often as the wage gap. The sentencing gap is 63% and the wage gap is 22%, and 63 is greater than 22-right???
 
Last edited:
Elena Kagen another female supreme court justice who I guess isn't actually female-eh???
 
I know the OP from another political Forum and he posted this stuff a lot.

Ryobi, did you finally get banned from that forum or are you just branching out.
 
i don't think you understand modern equality, op. modern equality means that white heterosexual men are equal, and everyone else is more than equal. it's only fair.
 
I know the OP from another political Forum and he posted this stuff a lot.

Ryobi, did you finally get banned from that forum or are you just branching out.

I've annihilated the opposition on other forums and they got tired of losing and they picked up their ball and went home...

I'm hoping for some better competition on this forum.

So far I've noticed the sexists and racists on this site have learned to ignore the tough questions and disregard the evidence and cherry pick their arguments.

For example, I've asked this question a few times and it's been ignored every time:

If feminism is an equality movement then why don't we hear feminists complaining about the sentencing gap at least as often as the wage gap????? The sentencing gap is 63% and the wage gap is 22%, and 63 is greater than 22-right????
 
Who says we're were on any back burner?

Apparently you did, by your post below, women were effectively chattel.
Say's a lot about what you think of men.

And your statement re: women not being slaves, even in America, is almost 100% wrong. Women in America have been chattel, property, with practically no rights of their own if a male relative said otherwise. Few to no protections from physical abuse and even death. The only thing that wouldnt hold true is that technically women couldnt be sold as property. But they AND all their 'property' could be 'bought' by marriage. And women couldnt even own property without a male relative having final say over it.

Except it's not.
Women weren't property nor were they slaves, they were family and partners.
Were they 100% equal, no and that wasn't and isn't fair or right, no matter where in the world or what time it exists/ed.

An assumption about physical abuse, again says a lot about what you think of men.
Assuming men are automatic abusers.
It was illegal to beat your spouse, in a great many places.

Wiki said:
It is often claimed that the term's etymological origin lies in a law that limited the maximum thickness of a stick with which it was permissible for a man to beat his wife.[5][6][2] English common law before the reign of Charles II permitted a man to give his wife "moderate correction", but no "rule of thumb" (whether called by this name or not) has ever been the law in England.[7][8] Such "moderate correction" specifically excluded beatings, allowing the husband only to confine a wife to the household.[9]

Nonetheless, belief in the existence of a "rule of thumb" law to excuse spousal abuse can be traced as far back as 1782, the year that James Gillray published his satirical cartoon Judge Thumb. The cartoon lambastes Sir Francis Buller, an English judge, for allegedly ruling that a man may legally beat his wife, provided that he used a stick no thicker than his thumb, although there is no other written record of Buller making such a pronouncement.[10] The Massachusetts Body of Liberties adopted in 1641 by the Massachusetts Bay colonists states, “Every married woman shall be free from bodily correction or stripes by her husband, unless it be in his own defense from her assault.”[11] In the United States, legal decisions in Mississippi (1824) and North Carolina (1868 and 1874) make reference to—and reject—an unnamed "old doctrine" or "ancient law" by which a man was allowed to beat his wife with a stick no wider than his thumb.[6] For example, the 1874 case State v. Oliver (North Carolina Reports, Vol. 70, Sec. 60, p. 44) states: "We assume that the old doctrine that a husband had the right to whip his wife, provided that he used a switch no larger than his thumb, is not the law in North Carolina." In 1976, feminist Del Martin used the phrase "rule of thumb" as a metaphorical reference to describe such a doctrine. She was misinterpreted by many as claiming the doctrine as a direct origin of the phrase and the connection gained currency in 1982, when the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights issued a report on wife abuse, titled "Under the Rule of Thumb".[8][12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rule_of_thumb

Women could own property, it was part of English common law, under the doctrine of coverture. Of course, when she married, the property came into the relationship and was adjoined with her husbands. He was the "head of household" but to broadly assume he was the only one with say, is likely false.
That doesn't make it right, but it certainly doesn't make women "chattel" or unable to own property as you describe.

Part of the primary purpose for all this was that, he the husband was responsible for the whole household.

Wiki said:
Coverture (sometimes spelled couverture) was a legal doctrine whereby, upon marriage, a woman's legal rights and obligations were subsumed by those of her husband, in accordance with the wife's legal status of feme covert. An unmarried woman, a feme sole, had the right to own property and make contracts in her own name.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coverture

Women are equal to men and deserve the same recognition and opportunities.

Strawman, I never implied that they weren't or didn't.
My issue is with feminists going "over the top" and blaming men as a group (and their sexism) for nearly every perceived wrong.
 
When women are convicted of the same crimes as men they recieve 63% lighter sentences than their male counterparts, and thats after being many times less likely to even be prosecuted in the first place when they're arrested. That's not accountability.

A 2009 study for the United States Department of Labor found that all but 5% of the 22% wage gap is explained by choice and there's no evidence to suggest the remaining 5% is the result of discrimination. In fact evidence suggests that the 5% is the result of more choice that just can't be quantified because of the limitatation of the researchers model, multivariate regression analysis.

One of the things the study found is women are more likely to choose to study subjects at university like fine arts and men are more likely to choose to study subjects at university like physics, therefore men are qualified for more lucrative careers when they graduate, so they make more money. Yet the fact that women make less money because of their choices is men's fault according to feminists? That's not accountability.

A woman drinks, has sex, regrets the sex the next day, so it's rape? That's not accountability.

If feminists want equality between the genders then shouldn't they be working to hold women equally accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices?

But feminists aren't working to hold women accountable for the consequences of their actions and choices because feminism isn't an equality movement.

While I sympathize with MRAs to some extent, I find their whining complaints to basically be reverse feminism. Really, while the feminists have been more destructive (whether that's just due to being more successful or not I don't know), both groups support the same basic ideas, equality, egalitarianism, blah blah blah. Seeing feminists and MRAs argue is rather like watching two groups of children bicker.
 
Hate begets hate. love begets hate. Love to hate is hate.

It's all the same never ending circular argument.
 
Firstly, you're looking at this a bit backwards.

It is not a panel of feminists who decide a woman gets a lighter sentence. It is mostly old white men -- the same people who decide most things -- who believe women are child-like and therefore shouldn't be held to the same intellectual standard.

First wave feminists actually attacked this very directly, deliberately breaking the law (non-destructively) and arguing with hesitant police that they ought to be arrested, as women are intelligent enough to understand their actions.

So if you want to actually do something meaningful about this, the people to aim it at is judges.






.

So, no. Try again.

- A feminist who spends at least half her time addressing the intellectual accountability related to rights.

No. Some men are feminists.

Is a woman's sentence decided by a panel of feminists?

If the answer to this question is no -- which it is -- then why are you blaming feminists? This has been true since long before feminism even existed, and at various points feminists have directly attacked it.

Yes. I just also believe in targeting critiques correctly and that you blaming feminists for things they didn't do, and actively oppose, is rather silly.

.

A few things.

1. Men would likely still be given longer sentences even if gender wasn't considered.
2. While I am no fan of feminists they had nothing to do with the sentencing situation.

.

And women are not remotely responsible for any kind of conviction rate in this country...that you believe so shows just how poorly you mentally assimilate data.[/QUOTE]

According to feminists women aren't responsible for the wage gap either. According to Feminists, men, mostly white men, are responsible for the wage gap, just like men, mostly white men are responsible for the sentencing gap,-right??? yet this doesn't stop feminists from complaining about the wage gap-right???

What makes the sentencing gap different from the wage gap, other than the sentencing gap is 63% and the wage gap is 22%???

Feminists blame men for the sentencing gap and so it's not there concern. Feminists also blame men for the wage gap, but in the wage gap's case, feminists care a great deal about the wage gap.

Why in one instance is an inequality not a concern and in another case a percieved inequality is a concern when both are caused by men, mostly white men, according to feminists???

Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.
 
While I sympathize with MRAs to some extent, I find their whining complaints to basically be reverse feminism. Really, while the feminists have been more destructive (whether that's just due to being more successful or not I don't know), both groups support the same basic ideas, equality, egalitarianism, blah blah blah. Seeing feminists and MRAs argue is rather like watching two groups of children bicker.

So you don't care about racism or sexism.

Would you say you're racist and sexist?
 
Dude, will you please stop spamming me? This is not a chat room; respond to posts one time.

I have simply lost interest in your foot-stomping, and I am not going to try to glue together the 5 separate posts you've made (amazingly, none of which have any content to refute anyway) pertaining to my one. Quit spamming me.

But don't you get kind of excited....just a LITTLE bit, when you sing back on to debatepolitics, and see that you have a slew of responses to check out and address?





I do.....
 
We all CLAIM to want to be equal, but the truth is, when given the chance, we never ACT towards true equality, we typically ACT towards self preservation, and self promotion. That applies EQUALLY to men and women, me and you.

That said, men STILL have a greater ability towards self preservation and self promotion than women, though the multitude of reasons for this are FAR from simple. Men, still, hold more offices of higher power, both publicly and privately.

Consider...most teachers are women...most school administrators are men. This is a true statement.

Where we run into problems is when we label this as a problem, and then try to diagnose it and treat it.

The bottom line is, we'd all be better off if we simply couldn't see sex, or race, and simply treated people based on no prior prejudices. We'd then be much more free to understand and acknowledge that there are differences between us, and that, as a general rule, those differences make us better or worse than the other at certain tasks. Yes, there are exceptions to the rule...and those exceptions are the reason we have this thread. BECAUSE we can't seem to see people as blank slates, we tend to view those exceptions as being the same as the rest, and treat them such. This applies to both sexes, equally.

Back to our school problem, of admin being men, and teachers being women, and labeling that a problem. Well, it's only a problem if those largely female teachers WANT to be principles and such...instead of being teachers. It's only a problem if the women that WANT to be principles are qualified to do so. It's only a problem if despite that want and ability, they are denied, because they are a woman. Does it happen? Very hard to prove, but I'm fairly confident that it does. Maybe not so much in education...but elsewhere, in private, corporate america, I wager it happens a LOT still. Why? Well, because men view women a certain way, in a certain light. A women who is tough and commanding is likely to be labeled a bitch, while, if a man does it, he's just a hard ass who gets results. Women also tend to cry when it comes to getting yelled at behind closed doors, and the higher up the corporate ladder you go, the more you get yelled at behind closed doors. Boss folk don't like that, it makes them uncomfortable, and is likely in the back of their mind when they consider who they are going to put into one spot or another. I could go on, really, because the list is long, but you get the idea.

As for the pay thing...that's....a complicated issue, and could probably do with it's own thread, lol.
 
And women are not remotely responsible for any kind of conviction rate in this country...that you believe so shows just how poorly you mentally assimilate data.[/QUOTE]

According to feminists women aren't responsible for the wage gap either. According to Feminists, men, mostly white men, are responsible for the wage gap, just like men, mostly white men are responsible for the sentencing gap,-right??? yet this doesn't stop feminists from complaining about the wage gap-right???

What makes the sentencing gap different from the wage gap, other than the sentencing gap is 63% and the wage gap is 22%???

Feminists blame men for the sentencing gap and so it's not there concern. Feminists also blame men for the wage gap, but in the wage gap's case, feminists care a great deal about the wage gap.

Why in one instance is an inequality not a concern and in another case a percieved inequality is a concern when both are caused by men, mostly white men, according to feminists???

Talk about wanting your cake and eating it too.

Crickets...lol

I'll take your silence as concession of your defeat

:2razz:
 
So you don't care about racism or sexism.

No, not really.

Would you say you're racist and sexist?

Sexist? Most definitely, I support traditional gender roles and patriarchy. Racist? No, but I'm white and not self-hating.
 
No, not really.



Sexist? Most definitely, I support traditional gender roles and patriarchy. Racist? No, but I'm white and not self-hating.

Fair enough, you're sexist.

As someone who believes women are inferior to men, do you think women should not have the right to vote???
 
Fair enough, you're sexist.

As someone who believes women are inferior to men, do you think women should not have the right to vote???

I didn't say women are inferior to men. That's not the basis of patriarchy. The basis of patriarchy is that men are naturally more suited to having authority, and women are naturally more suited to domestic tasks.

I don't support democracy, but if we are to have democracy, it should be as limited as possible, so yes, restricting the vote to men would be good.
 
I didn't say women are inferior to men. That's not the basis of patriarchy. The basis of patriarchy is that men are naturally more suited to having authority, and women are naturally more suited to domestic tasks.

I don't support democracy, but if we are to have democracy, it should be as limited as possible, so yes, restricting the vote to men would be good.

As someone who believes in patriarchy, do you believe men should be allowed to rape their wives???
 
As someone who believes in patriarchy, do you believe men should be allowed to rape their wives???

It is not possible for a man to rape his wife. If you're asking about a man forcing his wife (or vice versa), this is degenerate, and could be considered assault if a criminal complaint was filed, but it's certainly not rape, as a person has a moral right to have sex with their spouse (it is wrong for a person to refuse to have sex with their spouse).
 
Back
Top Bottom