Dutch IRS victorious over Scientology

[Peter King]

Just not in the Netherlands where neither freedom of speech nor freedom of religion is a recognized right.

What BS, in fact freedom of speech and religion is guaranteed by our constitution, but there is no guarantee in the constitution for businesses like Scientology to misuse the tax exempt status of non-commercial religious organizations who do things for the common good.

Every religious person in the Netherlands can believe what they want and say what they want, even scientology, they just cannot do it from a tax exempt status because their business model does not comply with the rules for tax exempt groups/churches.

 

[Crovax]

Freedom of religion.. but Scientology is not a religion and never has been. You do understand how Scientology was first recognized as a religion? Their leader was running from the IRS for owning millions in back taxes. He lived on a boat in international waters to avoid justice.... and when Scientology, a religion based on a sci-fi writers ramblings.. was recognized, then he suddenly did not owe those taxes..

Scientology is a criminal organisation .. there is no doubt about that. The "freedom of religion" bull**** is protecting them.. they did what the Coso Nostro never could... legalized criminality.

WTF are you talking about? if a scientologist walks down the street and murders someone they will be punished just like anyone else would. do you really think that not paying taxes makes crime legal?

 

[Amadeus]

L. Ron Hubbard — 'You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion.'

 

[Crovax]

What BS, in fact freedom of speech and religion is guaranteed by our constitution, but there is no guarantee in the constitution for businesses like Scientology to misuse the tax exempt status of non-commercial religious organizations who do things for the common good.

Every religious person in the Netherlands can believe what they want and say what they want, even scientology, they just cannot do it from a tax exempt status because their business model does not comply with the rules for tax exempt groups/churches.

actually it isnt

Articles 137(c) and 137(d) of the Dutch Criminal Code operate to prohibit making public intentional insults, as well as engaging in verbal, written, or illustrated incitement to hatred, on account of one's race, religion, sexual orientation, or personal convictions.

In fact you indicted one of your own politicians, Geert Wilders, for speaking about radical Islamists

You dont have a clue about what freedom of speech really is

 

[PeteEU]

WTF are you talking about? if a scientologist walks down the street and murders someone they will be punished just like anyone else would. do you really think that not paying taxes makes crime legal?

Are you sure about that?

And we are not talking about physical crimes (for the most part), but economic crimes.. fraud en-mass. Stealing lonely peoples money with false promises. But there are also cases of kidnapping and forced imprisonment. Not to mention known cases of blackmail and corruption. Some have been prosecuted.. mostly outside the US btw.. but lots have not.

 

[Peter King]

Not in the Netherlands

Tax exemption has nothing to do with recognizing a religion.

 

[Peter King]

You dont think having other religions get tax breaks and not scientology is an impediment to that religion?

Other religions are not run as a business or want that commercial profit to be free from taxation. If you run commercial enterprises you are going to have to pay tax on that profit.

 

[Crovax]

Are you sure about that?

And we are not talking about physical crimes (for the most part), but economic crimes.. fraud en-mass. Stealing lonely peoples money with false promises. But there are also cases of kidnapping and forced imprisonment. Not to mention known cases of blackmail and corruption. Some have been prosecuted.. mostly outside the US btw.. but lots have not.

You think tax free status protects an organization from "economic" crimes like kidnapping and forced imprisonment?

 

[Amadeus]

Tax exemption has nothing to do with recognizing a religion.

Indeed.

Then He said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." In full agreement, the Apostle Paul taught, "This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor" (Romans 13:6-7).

 

[Peter King]

It certainly hinders new people from believing in that religion and proselytizing is a big part of a lot of religions

You do not doing any of those things when you ask/demand they pay 588 dollars an hour.

 

[Peter King]

actually it isnt

Articles 137(c) and 137(d) of the Dutch Criminal Code operate to prohibit making public intentional insults, as well as engaging in verbal, written, or illustrated incitement to hatred, on account of one's race, religion, sexual orientation, or personal convictions.

In fact you indicted one of your own politicians, Geert Wilders, for speaking about radical Islamists

You dont have a clue about what freedom of speech really is

You can think what you want, you can proclaim what you want, but if you do this in a manner that illegally infringes of the human rights of others then sometimes someone will be prosecuted for making illegal comments/claims. But it is very rare that someone is ever prosecuted for that.

And we did not indict Geert Wilders for speaking about radical muslims, he does nothing but speak about radical muslims and is not prosecuted for it. Also he was found not guilty for his comments.

And we have plenty of ideas what freedom of speech really is, but we also know that other rights exist other than freedom of speech.

 

[joG]

Unless that "religion" has been determined to not meet the criteria of a religion.

You will find in history that the ruling religion will always find good reasons to determine the competitor not to be a religion. That was one of the advances of the US Constitution that it tried to protect every religion.

 

[joG]

LOL have you ever looked into Scientology? It is a pyramid scheme.. which is illegal in most countries. They steal money from people, and worse. A Time journalist who did an expose on the organisation 20 years ago or so, is still living in hiding. Scientology is no religion period and should not be treated as one.

I have heard the same or very close to it said of every religion I know of.

 

[Andalublue]

You dont think having other religions get tax breaks and not scientology is an impediment to that religion?

Not on their ability to express themselves however they wish. It acts as no impediment on that at all.

 

[Andalublue]

actually it isnt

Articles 137(c) and 137(d) of the Dutch Criminal Code operate to prohibit making public intentional insults, as well as engaging in verbal, written, or illustrated incitement to hatred, on account of one's race, religion, sexual orientation, or personal convictions.

In fact you indicted one of your own politicians, Geert Wilders, for speaking about radical Islamists

Incitement to hatred is exempt from free speech laws in most countries, even the US.

Not extending tax exempt privileges to an organisation in no way curtails its freedom to proselytise, preach or express its views. What it does curtail is that organisation's ability to have its activities subsidised by the public purse.

 

[PeteEU]

I have heard the same or very close to it said of every religion I know of.

And your point? Are you seriously saying that Scientology is comparable to say Judaism or Buddhism? That the foundations of Scientology is purely monetary and all their "religious crap" was actually added to the so called religion so it could get the tax exemption in the first place? Seriously?

 

[PeteEU]

You think tax free status protects an organization from "economic" crimes like kidnapping and forced imprisonment?

It does, that is a fact... especially in the US. The IRS and government wont touch religious organisations and their finances unless they have serious evidence of wrong doing. Of course it also helps to have people in high places to have your back on economic crimes...

 

[joG]

And your point? Are you seriously saying that Scientology is comparable to say Judaism or Buddhism? That the foundations of Scientology is purely monetary and all their "religious crap" was actually added to the so called religion so it could get the tax exemption in the first place? Seriously?

My point is that it is not for me to judge and that I think it rather an arrogant throwback to archaic primitivism or the Middle Ages to do so.

 

[Andalublue]

My point is that it is not for me to judge and that I think it rather an arrogant throwback to archaic primitivism or the Middle Ages to do so.

It is for you to judge when they are asking for you to subsidise their activities.

 

[joG]

It is for you to judge when they are asking for you to subsidise their activities.

That is a quite different question, you know?

 

[OrphanSlug]

As much as I would love to jump on the bandwagon in this thread of being critical of Scientology, we are inching ourselves closer to evaluations of what is faith ("belief") and what is a "public welfare institution" in government terminology. That could be a real problem down the road.

We can talk all day about taxation and any system of faith, and if we took a poll on if systems of faith should be taxed I would say yes. However, what I would not agree to is the government deciding which systems of faith are taxed and which are exempt based on a standards from government. They either are all taxed, or all are not.

I understand we are talking about a Dutch Court here, and in the Netherlands there is a little something added to their freedom of religion. "Everyone shall have the right to manifest freely his religion or belief, either individually or in community with others, without prejudice to his responsibility under the law." Religion or belief, and belief ends up looked at as "philosophy of life." Because that was stated as such, the collision is then philosophy of life against public welfare institution for tax exempt status. Or, a manufactured way for the government to grant tax exempt status on their terms irregardless of Constitutionality.

I will agree with some of the others in this thread that losing tax exempt status does not necessarily mean freedom of religion is impacted. Scientology can still exist in the Netherlands, and they can still have their existing operations. They just now have a tax bill.

My issue is the government deciding by a standard what is and is not public welfare institution. If that thinking carries over into the US, we are talking about a massive evaluation of various organizations out there besides just Scientology. I think we are back to the same problem, tax them all or tax none of them. Taxing some and not others tells me inequality under the Constitution / Law is around the corner and potentially also corruption in ensuring tax exempt status.

Are we sure we want any government deciding something as monumental as standards for systems of belief and public welfare?

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

crushing freedom of expression in every way, how progressive of them

Advancing your knowledge in practically all the other worlds religions, it's costs no money.
With scientology, you have to pay to advance.

 

[Ikari]

Like in the US, churches and religious foundations/organizations that do good works, are exempt from taxation.

Scientology in the Netherlands has been fighting the Dutch belastingdienst (IRS) to also be granted tax exempt status, it has lead to a lengthy trial that even went up to our version of the supreme court and sent back again.

Yesterday, in a very critical ruling, the court has decided that Scientology is not entitled to tax exempt status.

Our supreme court sent the case back to a lower court because it ordered a substantial investigation into the bookkeeping of the Scientology organization in the Netherlands.

That investigation concluded that Scientology was not a charitable/organization that does good works and needed to be tax exempt because they received a lot of donations, etc. Instead, the investigation showed that Scientology's own money had been largely earned by services provided by the church for which it had been asking (on average) about 588 dollars an hour from the people taking those courses/services.

Scientology uses considerable (in monetary value) and fixed rates and mostly acts and charges like a commercial enterprise and not like a church/religious organization for the common good.

The Scientology church had been complaining that it was entitled to get the tax exempt status because refusing them that tax exempt status would be a sign of discrimination and denial of freedom of religion (on the part of the Dutch IRS).

In Europe the church is being investigated in some countries for being a criminal organization (Belgium) and in France it was found guilty of fraud. In the Netherlands top legal experts say that they hope that law enforcement is keeping an eye on Scientology due to the aggressive donation practices Scientology levies on it's members.

Scientology is a Ponzi scheme turned cult. It should never have been given "church" status in the United States and every member of scientology is either in on the scam or an idiot.

 

[Ikari]

Define religion. Am I allowed to make up a religion and get it recognized by the government?

In the US, yes, as demonstrated by scientology.

 

[Ikari]

You dont think having other religions get tax breaks and not scientology is an impediment to that religion?

Have you seen how rich scientology is? No, it's not an impediment. The only impediment to scientology is intelligence.