Do you believe we are living in the end times? (1 Viewer)

[Gathomas88]

A few days ago, I watched a documentary called Waiting for Armageddon. My reaction to it was that it was really good. It provided interesting insight into the complex beliefs, and many of people in it sounded like a few Christians I know.

One scene especially reminds me of somebody I know. She said she does not expect to experience becoming a grandma. Then she sat down at a table with the bible and her two teenage daughters and proclaimed, "All of the prophecies have been fulfilled... every single one!" Then had a dire conversation with them about the coming end.


Well, today, I checked the mail and I got a pamphlet and invite to a Christian event about about the end times, the prophecies, the bible, and all things related. I started to wonder how common this belief is.

And if you think the end is coming, are you worried or stressed out? It seems like something you shouldn't be preoccupied with if you think you will be saved. I don't understand the intense focus many Christians have on the concept.

Another group of people in the documentary seemed excited about the end coming, and want to encourage events in Israel believing it will trigger the end.

Thoughts?

In all likelihood, we're not. However, it certainly pays to be prepared!

"Therefore keep watch because you do not know when the owner of the house will come back--whether in the evening, or at midnight, or when the rooster crows, or at dawn." - Mark 13:35

 

[laska]

The messiah ben Joseph is most likely Joseph Smith. He's the prophet, the latter day Joseph, who prepares the way for the return of Christ, the Messiah ben David and His millenial reign. Joseph Smith is a direct descendant of the Biblical Joseph, Jesus a direct descendant of David.

It is likely the daily sacrifice of two lambs at the temple in ancient Israel, one at sunrise and the other at sunset, were symbolic of the martydom of Jesus at the meridian of time which is sunrise on the Hebrew calendar and the martydom of Joseph Smith on June 27, 1844 at about 5 pm. There are several clues this is the case.

Joseph Smith martydom date was 10 tammuz on the Hebrew calendar, which is the day tied to the fall of Jerusalem and so relates to the destruction of the temple and the end of the daily sacrifice. Fitting if Joseph was who the sunset sacrificial lamb in the daily sacrifice at the temple was symbolic of.

The Old Testament prophet Daniel gives a prophecy that mentions the daily sacrifice and gives clues to two dates that people from Isaac Newton to the 19th century Seventh Day Adventists had calculated were 33 AD and 1844 AD. So how does 33 AD and 1844 AD relate to the two lambs sacrificed daily at the temple? It's the two martydom dates of two prophets that these two lambs are symbolic of. Daniel ch 9:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"

This fits Jesus atoning for the sins of mankind and has been calculated to be 33 AD. Daniel then ties the return of the sacrifices ie the return of the temple to a future date when the "sanctuary" will be "cleansed". This date in the prophecy has been calculated by many to be1844 AD. The 19th century Seventh Day Adventists thought the "sanctuary" being "cleansed" meant the cleansing of the earth by fire at the Second Coming and many of them sold their possessions and was looking for Christ's return in 1844. But something else happened in 1844, and that was the martydom of Joseph and his brother Hyrum. Now how was the "sanctuary cleansed" ie the temple cleansed in ancient Israel? On the Day of Atonement on the Hebrew Calendar the high priest sacriced a bull and a goat to cleanse the temple. The day of June 27, 1844 Joseph and Hyrum were martryed (10 Tammuz on the Hebrew Calendar). Besides this date being linked to the Fall of Jerusalem, 10 Tammuz is also one of four Day of Atonement on the Hebrew calendar, the 10th day of the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th months. They are seasonal markers, with a Day of Atonement in the Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter. Another perfect bullseye if Joseph is being represented as the sunset lamb of the daily sacrifice, and the bull in the temple cleansing sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. The bull is symbolic of the tribe of Joseph.

Joseph Smith was also born on the winter solstice on the Hebrew Calendar. So he was born and martyred on seasonal markers on the Hebrew Calendar. His martydom date was also his mother's birthdate on the Hebrew Calendar.

According to Jewish sources the messiah ben Joseph is tied to the return of the Jews to Israel. Joseph Smith received the keys to the gathering of Israel from Moses in the Kirtland temple Symbolism of Passover , and in 1841 sent Orson Hyde to the land of Israel to dedicate it for the return of the Jews. The following is his dedicatory prayer on the mount of olives:
Orson Hyde's prayer of dedication on the Mount of Olives

Joseph Smith statement when delivered as prisoner to Carthage a few days before he andbHyrum will be killed by a mob with their faces painted black:
"I am going like a*lamb*to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a*conscience*void*of offense towards God, and towards all men.*I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.”

The name Hyrum in Hebrew means "My brother is exalted".

 

[SheWolf]

So then I take that you don't believe we are living in the end times? What happens when the prophecies are fulfilled? How does the end happen?

Sure, well first I suppose I should outline what the Messiah (the Mashiach) actually 'is' in the Jewish faith. In Judaism the Messiah is a political-religious leader who will be a skilled judge, military commander, political leader, and he will have a total mastery over Torah.

When he arrives he will gather all of the Jews (yes all) back to the Land of Israel, build the Third Temple, united the Land of Israel, disperse Israel's enemies, make it so that the Torah and its laws are known intuitively to all people in the world, and usher in a period of world peace. There are legions of details and events that will, as a result of these things, also come to pass but they aren't as important as those broad strokes.

Furthermore I should mention that it is axiomatic in Judaism that if an individual dies without accomplishing these objectives then they are not the Moshiach.

 

[Logicman]

Because it's obvious to all Jews that if the proposed Moshiach perishes before accomplishing the tasks which the Torah ascribes to him then logically he cannot be the Moshiach.

Secondly the word 'Moshiach' (משיח) literally means anointed and is used at least a hundred times throughout the Torah to refer to a panoply of individuals and objects, all of whom are obviously not the Moshiach (e.g. matzot, Cyrus, various prophets and priests, the Temple, altars, etc). Therefore this is very easy to explain: we read Daniel 9:24 and 9:25 as referring to an anointed Prince of Israel. Who or what specifically? Verse 24 refers to anointing the alter of the Holy of Holies, verse 25 to Cyrus the Great and the reconstruction of Jerusalem, and verse 26 refers to the period of time before the last high priest/king is cut off and the new overlords arrive to destroy the city and the Temple.

This is cited as being given by Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides) - note citation given below.

"Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah". [Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3, p. 24.]

So, Maimonides believed that the Messiah should have already appeared, because according to the 'wise' (rabbis) the end times had already come. In other words, not only Maimon, but other rabbis believed the time of the Messiah's coming was in the past. Comment?

 

[SheWolf]

So you are mormon? What are the end time prophecies you believe in?

The messiah ben Joseph is most likely Joseph Smith. He's the prophet, the latter day Joseph, who prepares the way for the return of Christ, the Messiah ben David and His millenial reign. Joseph Smith is a direct descendant of the Biblical Joseph, Jesus a direct descendant of David.

It is likely the daily sacrifice of two lambs at the temple in ancient Israel, one at sunrise and the other at sunset, were symbolic of the martydom of Jesus at the meridian of time which is sunrise on the Hebrew calendar and the martydom of Joseph Smith on June 27, 1844 at about 5 pm. There are several clues this is the case.

Joseph Smith martydom date was 10 tammuz on the Hebrew calendar, which is the day tied to the fall of Jerusalem and so relates to the destruction of the temple and the end of the daily sacrifice. Fitting if Joseph was who the sunset sacrificial lamb in the daily sacrifice at the temple was symbolic of.

The Old Testament prophet Daniel gives a prophecy that mentions the daily sacrifice and gives clues to two dates that people from Isaac Newton to the 19th century Seventh Day Adventists had calculated were 33 AD and 1844 AD. So how does 33 AD and 1844 AD relate to the two lambs sacrificed daily at the temple? It's the two martydom dates of two prophets that these two lambs are symbolic of. Daniel ch 9:

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks"

This fits Jesus atoning for the sins of mankind and has been calculated to be 33 AD. Daniel then ties the return of the sacrifices ie the return of the temple to a future date when the "sanctuary" will be "cleansed". This date in the prophecy has been calculated by many to be1844 AD. The 19th century Seventh Day Adventists thought the "sanctuary" being "cleansed" meant the cleansing of the earth by fire at the Second Coming and many of them sold their possessions and was looking for Christ's return in 1844. But something else happened in 1844, and that was the martydom of Joseph and his brother Hyrum. Now how was the "sanctuary cleansed" ie the temple cleansed in ancient Israel? On the Day of Atonement on the Hebrew Calendar the high priest sacriced a bull and a goat to cleanse the temple. The day of June 27, 1844 Joseph and Hyrum were martryed (10 Tammuz on the Hebrew Calendar). Besides this date being linked to the Fall of Jerusalem, 10 Tammuz is also one of four Day of Atonement on the Hebrew calendar, the 10th day of the 1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th months. They are seasonal markers, with a Day of Atonement in the Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter. Another perfect bullseye if Joseph is being represented as the sunset lamb of the daily sacrifice, and the bull in the temple cleansing sacrifice on the Day of Atonement. The bull is symbolic of the tribe of Joseph.

Joseph Smith was also born on the winter solstice on the Hebrew Calendar. So he was born and martyred on seasonal markers on the Hebrew Calendar. His martydom date was also his mother's birthdate on the Hebrew Calendar.

According to Jewish sources the messiah ben Joseph is tied to the return of the Jews to Israel. Joseph Smith received the keys to the gathering of Israel from Moses in the Kirtland temple Symbolism of Passover , and in 1841 sent Orson Hyde to the land of Israel to dedicate it for the return of the Jews. The following is his dedicatory prayer on the mount of olives:
Orson Hyde's prayer of dedication on the Mount of Olives

Joseph Smith statement when delivered as prisoner to Carthage a few days before he andbHyrum will be killed by a mob with their faces painted black:
"I am going like a*lamb*to the slaughter; but I am calm as a summer’s morning; I have a*conscience*void*of offense towards God, and towards all men.*I shall die innocent, and it shall yet be said of me—he was murdered in cold blood.”

 

[laska]

So you are mormon? What are the end time prophecies you believe in?

Finished The Walking Dead, great way to pivot to end time thread. I am a Mormon. We believe in all the Biblical prophecies. Personally do not trust any of the shows you mentioned in their interpretations but I believe every prophecy in the scriprures will be fulfilled.

In the Book of Revelations the apostle John sees prior to the Second Coming "*6*And I saw another*angel*fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting*gospel*to*preach*unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every*nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,*7*Saying with a loud voice,*Fear*God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his*judgment*is come: and*worship*him*that made*heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

It is the LDS (Mormon) belief these verses were fulfilled when the angel Moroni visited the young Joseph Smith and God restored the "everlasting gospel" to the earth once again. Since then missionaries of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have preached this everlasting gospel throughout the nations of the world (that allow it) in their own languages.

 

[laska]

On top of most LDS temples there is a golden angel Moroni blowing a trumpet and facing East. He's facing east because when Christ returns he'll be seen in the east sky.

Interestingly the angel Moroni delivered the golden plates to Joseph Smith on September 22, 1827. This date was the Feast of Trumpets on th e Hebrew Calendar. Some of the meaning of the Feast of Trumpets from Jewish scholars is the following:
" It signifies (1) the*beginning*of Israel’s final harvest, (2) the day God had set to remember His ancient promises to regather Israel, (3) a time for new revelation that would lead to a new covenant with Israel, and (4) a time to prepare for the Millennium."

 

[Sherman123]

This is cited as being given by Rabbi Moses Ben Maimon (Maimonides) - note citation given below.

"Daniel has elucidated to us the knowledge of the end times. However, since they are secret, the wise [rabbis] have barred the calculation of the days of Messiah's coming so that the untutored populace will not be led astray when they see that the End Times have already come but there is no sign of the Messiah". [Igeret Teiman, Chapter 3, p. 24.]

So, Maimonides believed that the Messiah should have already appeared, because according to the 'wise' (rabbis) the end times had already come. In other words, not only Maimon, but other rabbis believed the time of the Messiah's coming was in the past. Comment?

Two things:

1. I'm not sure why you are drawing the conclusion that you're drawing. Why would the assertion that within Daniel there is a secret that can be gleaned which will yield the answer of 'when' the Moshiach will come, but that this information should be kept hidden lest the populace run astray in the 'end times' due to the absence of the Moshiach, be evidence that the Rambam believed that the Moshiach had already arrived? Or should have arrived?

2. 'Igeret Teiman' is the Rambam's Epistle to the Yemenites in English. It does not have chapters, nor a 24th page. I'm unable to find any reference to the quote in question. The Rambam does talk about calculating the time of the Moshiach but it does so sternly by stating that it is impossible to do and that those who attempt it shall come to grief.

"First of all, it devolves upon you to know that no human being will ever be able to determine it precisely as Daniel has already intimated, "For the words are shut up and sealed." (Daniel 12:9). Indeed many hypotheses were advanced by scholars, who fancied that they have discovered the date, as was anticipated in Scripture, "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased." (Daniel 12:9). That is, there shall be numerous views concerning it. Furthermore we have a Divine communication through the medium of the prophets that many persons will calculate the time of the advent of the Mashiach but will fail to ascertain its true date. We are cautioned against giving way to doubt and distrust because of these miscalculations. The longer the delay, the more fervently shall you hope, as it is written, "And it declareth of the end and doth not lie, though it tarry, wait for it, because it will surely come, it will not delay." (Habakkuk 2:3)."

and in a later segment

"The rabbis invoked God to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent of the Mashiach, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Mashiach fail to appear as forecast. The rabbis invoked God to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent of the Messianic era, because they are a stumbling block to the people, and that is why they uttered the imprecation "May the calculators of the final redemption come to grief" (Sanhedrin 97b)"

Edit: I believe I've found the quote you cited and as I expected your version is a very bad mistranslation: "Inasmuch as Daniel has proclaimed the matter a deep secret, our sages have interdicted the calculation of the time of the future redemption, or the reckoning of the period of the advent of the Mashiach, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Mashiach fail to appear as forecast." The plain meaning is simple. Because you can't actually predict the coming of the Mashiach it is forbidden from trying because to do so risks exciting the masses to hysteria if the prediction is false. It is also in keeping with the entire part of the letter where the Rambam outlines all of the reasons why attempting to predict the coming of the Mashiach is wrong.

 

[Sherman123]

So then I take that you don't believe we are living in the end times? What happens when the prophecies are fulfilled? How does the end happen?

No, I do not, lol. As for your second question once the prophecies have been fulfilled? Things continue! There is no 'end' the world will go on. However some things will change, the Moshiach will be acknowledged as the global leader, the nations will bend the knee to Jerusalem and to God, fire offerings in the Temple will begin again, there will be global peace with a rapid shift towards a high standard of living, etc. The major 'miracle' will be the resurrection of the dead but the details of this are fiercely debated.

There is much more than I can really include in a quick post but that covers the gist of it.

 

[laska]

The girl on Fox news just said Trump as President is not the end of the world. Whew that's a big relief.

 

[Logicman]

Two things:

1. I'm not sure why you are drawing the conclusion that you're drawing. Why would the assertion that within Daniel there is a secret that can be gleaned which will yield the answer of 'when' the Moshiach will come, but that this information should be kept hidden lest the populace run astray in the 'end times' due to the absence of the Moshiach, be evidence that the Rambam believed that the Moshiach had already arrived? Or should have arrived?

2. 'Igeret Teiman' is the Rambam's Epistle to the Yemenites in English. It does not have chapters, nor a 24th page. I'm unable to find any reference to the quote in question. The Rambam does talk about calculating the time of the Moshiach but it does so sternly by stating that it is impossible to do and that those who attempt it shall come to grief.

"First of all, it devolves upon you to know that no human being will ever be able to determine it precisely as Daniel has already intimated, "For the words are shut up and sealed." (Daniel 12:9). Indeed many hypotheses were advanced by scholars, who fancied that they have discovered the date, as was anticipated in Scripture, "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased." (Daniel 12:9). That is, there shall be numerous views concerning it. Furthermore we have a Divine communication through the medium of the prophets that many persons will calculate the time of the advent of the Mashiach but will fail to ascertain its true date. We are cautioned against giving way to doubt and distrust because of these miscalculations. The longer the delay, the more fervently shall you hope, as it is written, "And it declareth of the end and doth not lie, though it tarry, wait for it, because it will surely come, it will not delay." (Habakkuk 2:3)."

and in a later segment

"The rabbis invoked God to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent of the Mashiach, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Mashiach fail to appear as forecast. The rabbis invoked God to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent of the Messianic era, because they are a stumbling block to the people, and that is why they uttered the imprecation "May the calculators of the final redemption come to grief" (Sanhedrin 97b)"

Edit: I believe I've found the quote you cited and as I expected your version is a very bad mistranslation: "Inasmuch as Daniel has proclaimed the matter a deep secret, our sages have interdicted the calculation of the time of the future redemption, or the reckoning of the period of the advent of the Mashiach, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Mashiach fail to appear as forecast." The plain meaning is simple. Because you can't actually predict the coming of the Mashiach it is forbidden from trying because to do so risks exciting the masses to hysteria if the prediction is false. It is also in keeping with the entire part of the letter where the Rambam outlines all of the reasons why attempting to predict the coming of the Mashiach is wrong.

I appreciate that. I also searched around and found this, attributed to Maimonides:

"Inasmuch as Daniel has proclaimed the matter a deep secret, our sages have interdicted the calculation of the time of the future redemption, or the reckoning of the period of the advent of the Messiah, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Messiah fail to appear as forecast."

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/XII

So, it appears from this that Maimonides, or at least his "sages," confirm Daniel 9 speaks about the Messiah.

 

[Logicman]

A few days ago, I watched a documentary called Waiting for Armageddon. My reaction to it was that it was really good. It provided interesting insight into the complex beliefs, and many of people in it sounded like a few Christians I know.

One scene especially reminds me of somebody I know. She said she does not expect to experience becoming a grandma. Then she sat down at a table with the bible and her two teenage daughters and proclaimed, "All of the prophecies have been fulfilled... every single one!" Then had a dire conversation with them about the coming end.


Well, today, I checked the mail and I got a pamphlet and invite to a Christian event about about the end times, the prophecies, the bible, and all things related. I started to wonder how common this belief is.

And if you think the end is coming, are you worried or stressed out? It seems like something you shouldn't be preoccupied with if you think you will be saved. I don't understand the intense focus many Christians have on the concept.

Another group of people in the documentary seemed excited about the end coming, and want to encourage events in Israel believing it will trigger the end.

Thoughts?

Just a follow up on the "end times" -

Please read Matthew chapter 24 which contains Jesus' "Olivet Discourse" on "Signs of the end of the Age". This will give you a number of signs that Jesus prophesied would occur right up until the end.

Here's a link to Matthew 24. Cheers...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 24

 

[HowardBThiname]

A few days ago, I watched a documentary called Waiting for Armageddon. My reaction to it was that it was really good. It provided interesting insight into the complex beliefs, and many of people in it sounded like a few Christians I know.

One scene especially reminds me of somebody I know. She said she does not expect to experience becoming a grandma. Then she sat down at a table with the bible and her two teenage daughters and proclaimed, "All of the prophecies have been fulfilled... every single one!" Then had a dire conversation with them about the coming end.


Well, today, I checked the mail and I got a pamphlet and invite to a Christian event about about the end times, the prophecies, the bible, and all things related. I started to wonder how common this belief is.

And if you think the end is coming, are you worried or stressed out? It seems like something you shouldn't be preoccupied with if you think you will be saved. I don't understand the intense focus many Christians have on the concept.

Another group of people in the documentary seemed excited about the end coming, and want to encourage events in Israel believing it will trigger the end.

Thoughts?

There is a chance man will destroy the planet to such an extent that greatly reduces the population, hence, those left would probably be unable to take advantage of all our technological advances and would, revert back to pre-industrial status.

But, there are no reliable "signs" or passages that could tip you off to that. Since the compilation of the New Testament -- nearly 2000 years ago -- folks have predicted the "end times" based on scripture.

It hasn't happened.

When it does -- if it does -- it will be the hand of man -- not the hand of some supernatural entity.

 

[laska]

Two things:

1. I'm not sure why you are drawing the conclusion that you're drawing. Why would the assertion that within Daniel there is a secret that can be gleaned which will yield the answer of 'when' the Moshiach will come, but that this information should be kept hidden lest the populace run astray in the 'end times' due to the absence of the Moshiach, be evidence that the Rambam believed that the Moshiach had already arrived? Or should have arrived?

2. 'Igeret Teiman' is the Rambam's Epistle to the Yemenites in English. It does not have chapters, nor a 24th page. I'm unable to find any reference to the quote in question. The Rambam does talk about calculating the time of the Moshiach but it does so sternly by stating that it is impossible to do and that those who attempt it shall come to grief.

"First of all, it devolves upon you to know that no human being will ever be able to determine it precisely as Daniel has already intimated, "For the words are shut up and sealed." (Daniel 12:9). Indeed many hypotheses were advanced by scholars, who fancied that they have discovered the date, as was anticipated in Scripture, "Many will run to and fro, and opinions shall be increased." (Daniel 12:9). That is, there shall be numerous views concerning it. Furthermore we have a Divine communication through the medium of the prophets that many persons will calculate the time of the advent of the Mashiach but will fail to ascertain its true date. We are cautioned against giving way to doubt and distrust because of these miscalculations. The longer the delay, the more fervently shall you hope, as it is written, "And it declareth of the end and doth not lie, though it tarry, wait for it, because it will surely come, it will not delay." (Habakkuk 2:3)."

and in a later segment

"The rabbis invoked God to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent of the Mashiach, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Mashiach fail to appear as forecast. The rabbis invoked God to frustrate and destroy those who seek to determine precisely the advent of the Messianic era, because they are a stumbling block to the people, and that is why they uttered the imprecation "May the calculators of the final redemption come to grief" (Sanhedrin 97b)"

Edit: I believe I've found the quote you cited and as I expected your version is a very bad mistranslation: "Inasmuch as Daniel has proclaimed the matter a deep secret, our sages have interdicted the calculation of the time of the future redemption, or the reckoning of the period of the advent of the Mashiach, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Mashiach fail to appear as forecast." The plain meaning is simple. Because you can't actually predict the coming of the Mashiach it is forbidden from trying because to do so risks exciting the masses to hysteria if the prediction is false. It is also in keeping with the entire part of the letter where the Rambam outlines all of the reasons why attempting to predict the coming of the Mashiach is wrong.

Personally disagree with the rabbis. Why would a prophecy be printed in scriptures if at least after the fact readers were not meant to see the prophecy was fulfilled and see evidence of God.

The prophecy states from the command to build Jerusalem to the Messiah being pierced is 70 weeks times 7 which is 490 years in the Biblical practice of counting weeks as years. Given Ezra later gives the exact date that he left to build Jerusalem and we can verify this exact date on our Gregorian calendar from standard reference for dates of that period on the Babylonian calendar from a set of tables produced by Parker and Dubberstein, we can determine this exact date was Saturday April 3, 458 BC. There are two possible dates that Biblical scholars give for Jesus' crucification. The only date of these two that fits every detail of the New Testament is Friday April 1, 33 AD. According to calendar expert John Pratt there is no reason to expect the Lord uses our Roman based Gregorian calendar so the Daniel prophecy would be based on a calendar He uses such the Hebrew or Enoch Calendars. Given the prophecy is given in weeks he thinks He was most likely using the Enoch Calendar which is based on weeks. Those two dates of 3 Apr 458 BC and 1 Apr 33 AD are a little under 2 weeks shy of being 490 years on the Hebrew Calendar. On the Enoch Calendar though those two dates are exactly 490 years to the day!
Daniel's Prophecy of Seventy Weeks

Both dates were determined independent of the Daniel prophecy so it is remarkable it is exactly 490 years to the day.

 

[RAMOSS]

Personally disagree with the rabbis. Why would a prophecy be printed in scriptures if at least after the fact readers were not meant to see the prophecy was fulfilled and see evidence of God.

The prophecy states from the command to build Jerusalem to the Messiah being pierced is 70 weeks times 7 which is 490 years in the Biblical practice of counting weeks as years. Given Ezra later gives the exact date that he left to build Jerusalem and we can verify this exact date on our Gregorian calendar from standard reference for dates of that period on the Babylonian calendar from a set of tables produced by Parker and Dubberstein, we can determine this exact date was Saturday April 3, 458 BC. There are two possible dates that Biblical scholars give for Jesus' crucification. The only date of these two that fits every detail of the New Testament is Friday April 1, 33 AD. According to calendar expert John Pratt there is no reason to expect the Lord uses our Roman based Gregorian calendar so the Daniel prophecy would be based on a calendar He uses such the Hebrew or Enoch Calendars. Given the prophecy is given in weeks he thinks He was most likely using the Enoch Calendar which is based on weeks. Those two dates of 3 Apr 458 BC and 1 Apr 33 AD are a little under 2 weeks shy of being 490 years on the Hebrew Calendar. On the Enoch Calendar though those two dates are exactly 490 years to the day!
Daniel's Prophecy of Seventy Weeks

Both dates were determined independent of the Daniel prophecy so it is remarkable it is exactly 490 years to the day.

And, john Pratt again shows the lack of understanding and making woo. First of all, Daniel does not mention any specific dates. To try to pick specific dates out of the prophecy is just showing confirmation bias. There is nothing in the passage that would indicate a specific start date or a specific end date. Taking two arbitrary dates because they are 490 years apart is totally silly For example, the 'exact date' of 3 apr 458 BC is pull out nothing, because that is an assumption, and a conclusion to try to fit the prophecy, and honestly, it's not worth the calculations. Next, there is no reason to have 1 Apr 33 either.. so you got to arbitrary start end end dates, to 'fit' the prophecy into place. That's dishonest.

 

[roguenuke]

For the most part, I consider such beliefs as being harmless (some obvious exceptions being when people kill themselves or others because of these beliefs). One potentially beneficial thing about these beliefs comes from the Westboro Baptist Church group. It is basically ensuring their own decline in the near future. They have convinced their children that the end is near so why should they bother finding spouses, having children. But the only way they have to keep their church going is through the children, since their family makes up the majority of the congregation.

In one of the interviews, there was a teenaged girl who said she had no plans to marry (which was probably good since she also said that all the children from that church are basically shunned in school due to their views) because the end of the world would come before she was old enough to do so. I can't see their children staying with them much longer. Some have already left as they became adults.

 

[laska]

And, john Pratt again shows the lack of understanding and making woo. First of all, Daniel does not mention any specific dates. To try to pick specific dates out of the prophecy is just showing confirmation bias. There is nothing in the passage that would indicate a specific start date or a specific end date. Taking two arbitrary dates because they are 490 years apart is totally silly For example, the 'exact date' of 3 apr 458 BC is pull out nothing, because that is an assumption, and a conclusion to try to fit the prophecy, and honestly, it's not worth the calculations. Next, there is no reason to have 1 Apr 33 either.. so you got to arbitrary start end end dates, to 'fit' the prophecy into place. That's dishonest.

As I stated in another thread to you, your typical debate MO is to accuse my posts of what you are guilty of. It is you who are lacking understanding of my post and the Pratt article, and if anyone is guilty of dishonesty it is you.

Daniel 9:25

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:"

Daniel does give a way to figure out the starting date when he states "from the coming forth of the commandment to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem". If you had comprphended the article you would see how it is possible to determine that. And you would understand you are wrong about Pratt trying to fit dates to fit the prophecy. I mean he goes over how those dates were reached. Now I know from past experiences with you no matter what you'll reject the evidence and mislabel it as stupid or not scientific and attack the source but maybe John Pratt and Isaac Newton are just smarter than you. I know you have extreme bias on this issue but you will not fool intelligent readers.

 

[Dibbler]

A few days ago, I watched a documentary called Waiting for Armageddon. My reaction to it was that it was really good. It provided interesting insight into the complex beliefs, and many of people in it sounded like a few Christians I know.

One scene especially reminds me of somebody I know. She said she does not expect to experience becoming a grandma. Then she sat down at a table with the bible and her two teenage daughters and proclaimed, "All of the prophecies have been fulfilled... every single one!" Then had a dire conversation with them about the coming end.


Well, today, I checked the mail and I got a pamphlet and invite to a Christian event about about the end times, the prophecies, the bible, and all things related. I started to wonder how common this belief is.

And if you think the end is coming, are you worried or stressed out? It seems like something you shouldn't be preoccupied with if you think you will be saved. I don't understand the intense focus many Christians have on the concept.

Another group of people in the documentary seemed excited about the end coming, and want to encourage events in Israel believing it will trigger the end.

Thoughts?

The end is always near. Most people get to an age where they realize that their days are numbered. In a lifetime there are also cycles and eras. This is the existential reality we all live with. So, yes the end is indeed near.

 

[RAMOSS]

As I stated in another thread to you, your typical debate MO is to accuse my posts of what you are guilty of. It is you who are lacking understanding of my post and the Pratt article, and if anyone is guilty of dishonesty it is you.

Daniel 9:25

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:"

Daniel does give a way to figure out the starting date when he states "from the coming forth of the commandment to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem". If you had comprphended the article you would see how it is possible to determine that. And you would understand you are wrong about Pratt trying to fit dates to fit the prophecy. I mean he goes over how those dates were reached. Now I know from past experiences with you no matter what you'll reject the evidence and mislabel it as stupid or not scientific and attack the source but maybe John Pratt and Isaac Newton are just smarter than you. I know you have extreme bias on this issue but you will not fool intelligent readers.

Yes, and you know what, those rationalization are totally and utter nonsense. As for bias, it appears to me that it is the Mormons that are biased, because they are telling Jewish people how to read their own scripture.
Well, there you go making sure you don't read what was written before. Sherman had already, quite very distinctly, explained that. You see, the term in Hebrew is 'anointed', and there are many people who are anointed. One of the people who are considered anointed are Kings. In this case, if you read further on, in context, it is specifically referring to Cyprus,

Sherman gave a good explanation about messiah in his post here
And, reasons that the whole 70 week thing you are tyring to pull out of your hat is nonsense can be found

here

Basically, it is relying on poor calculations , false claims, bad translations and out of context claims.

 

[CrabCake]

A few days ago, I watched a documentary called Waiting for Armageddon. My reaction to it was that it was really good. It provided interesting insight into the complex beliefs, and many of people in it sounded like a few Christians I know.

One scene especially reminds me of somebody I know. She said she does not expect to experience becoming a grandma. Then she sat down at a table with the bible and her two teenage daughters and proclaimed, "All of the prophecies have been fulfilled... every single one!" Then had a dire conversation with them about the coming end.


Well, today, I checked the mail and I got a pamphlet and invite to a Christian event about about the end times, the prophecies, the bible, and all things related. I started to wonder how common this belief is.

And if you think the end is coming, are you worried or stressed out? It seems like something you shouldn't be preoccupied with if you think you will be saved. I don't understand the intense focus many Christians have on the concept.

Another group of people in the documentary seemed excited about the end coming, and want to encourage events in Israel believing it will trigger the end.

Thoughts?

This comes in waves. End times prophecy stuff isn't that popular today. But it was popular in the late 90s when the Left Behind series was breaking records and people were freaking out over the impending Y2K disaster. Prior to that, there was a big wave of end times fear mongering in the 1970s stemming from the publication of Hal Lindsey's "The Late, Great Planet Earth". There seems to be kind of a lull these days; the next wave hasn't hit us yet.

Although there are definitely true believers out there, my sense is that the vast majority of end times stuff is pure marketing. Talk of the apocalypse, the end of the world, etc. is exciting and interesting and makes for good movies and books and speeches. I think most people pushing these types of things today are after your money.

I do believe that there will be a Parousia (I hate to use a fancy word but I don't really think any of the more familiar terms: second coming, apocalypse, armageddon, etc. actually fit). But it's important to note what the bible actually says as opposed to the ideas a lot of people out there have about it. I've seen threads on this forum from people who seem to think the bible says the universe will be destroyed. Nothing could be further from the truth. God made the world and he saw that it was good. The plan of salvation which culminates in his return is his way of SAVING his good creation and rescuing us and all of creation from sin and destruction. The idea that it will end when he destroys everything would make absolutely no sense in the biblical narrative. Instead, what you find in the bible is a description of God returning to our physical world to set everything right. He comes to lift up the downtrodden, punish evildoers, reward the just and establish a new order where there will finally be fairness and freedom on the land. He is also fundamentally transforming the world by uniting heaven and Earth so that there is no longer a separation between the two. God isn't destroying the world, he's setting everything right and ushering in a new age.

If this topic interests you, I highly recommend: Surprised by Hope: Rethinking Heaven, the Resurrection, and the Mission of the Church: N. T. Wright: 9780061551826: Amazon.com: Books

It may not be as flashy and exciting as all those other books which titillate you with stories of impending floods and earthquakes and whatever. But this one actually speaks truth.

 

[Sherman123]

I appreciate that. I also searched around and found this, attributed to Maimonides:

"Inasmuch as Daniel has proclaimed the matter a deep secret, our sages have interdicted the calculation of the time of the future redemption, or the reckoning of the period of the advent of the Messiah, because the masses might be mystified and bewildered should the Messiah fail to appear as forecast."

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Yemen/XII

So, it appears from this that Maimonides, or at least his "sages," confirm Daniel 9 speaks about the Messiah.

Why do you believe the Rambam is referring to Daniel 9? It is quite clear he is referring to Daniel 12, indeed he cites from Daniel 12 throughout that portion of the epistle. The portion that the Rabbis are talking about when they refer to the possibility of predicting the coming of the Moshiach are:

"And you, Daniel, close up the words and seal the book until the time of the end; many will run to and fro, and the knowledge will increase. – Daniel 12:4

And he said, “Go, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. – Daniel 12:9"

It is what the Rambam cites and what is often discussed in the Talmud. Not Daniel 9.

 

[Sherman123]

Personally disagree with the rabbis. Why would a prophecy be printed in scriptures if at least after the fact readers were not meant to see the prophecy was fulfilled and see evidence of God.

The prophecy states from the command to build Jerusalem to the Messiah being pierced is 70 weeks times 7 which is 490 years in the Biblical practice of counting weeks as years. Given Ezra later gives the exact date that he left to build Jerusalem and we can verify this exact date on our Gregorian calendar from standard reference for dates of that period on the Babylonian calendar from a set of tables produced by Parker and Dubberstein, we can determine this exact date was Saturday April 3, 458 BC. There are two possible dates that Biblical scholars give for Jesus' crucification. The only date of these two that fits every detail of the New Testament is Friday April 1, 33 AD. According to calendar expert John Pratt there is no reason to expect the Lord uses our Roman based Gregorian calendar so the Daniel prophecy would be based on a calendar He uses such the Hebrew or Enoch Calendars. Given the prophecy is given in weeks he thinks He was most likely using the Enoch Calendar which is based on weeks. Those two dates of 3 Apr 458 BC and 1 Apr 33 AD are a little under 2 weeks shy of being 490 years on the Hebrew Calendar. On the Enoch Calendar though those two dates are exactly 490 years to the day!
Daniel's Prophecy of Seventy Weeks

Both dates were determined independent of the Daniel prophecy so it is remarkable it is exactly 490 years to the day.

Hm? How is this prophecy any different from the many others in the Torah? We the reader can see the result of the prophecy quite clearly (if you believe such things) as Daniel predicts the restoration of the Temple, the Jewish people, the dictates of Cyrus, and the eventual destruction of that entity. I don't understand your point.

 

[Logicman]

Why do you believe the Rambam is referring to Daniel 9? It is quite clear he is referring to Daniel 12, indeed he cites from Daniel 12 throughout that portion of the epistle. The portion that the Rabbis are talking about when they refer to the possibility of predicting the coming of the Moshiach are:

"And you, Daniel, close up the words and seal the book until the time of the end; many will run to and fro, and the knowledge will increase. – Daniel 12:4

And he said, “Go, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end. – Daniel 12:9"

It is what the Rambam cites and what is often discussed in the Talmud. Not Daniel 9.

I don't see that. Daniel 9 has a clear time-determination for the coming of the Messiah. And that time was up when Jesus rode into Jerusalem as the Messiah on or about April 6, 32 AD. People can Google April 6, 32 AD to get the story on that.

What are the seventy weeks of Daniel?

Of course non-Messianic Jews will always deny that time-determination but that's fine.

 

[Sherman123]

I don't see that. Daniel 9 has a clear time-determination for the coming of the Messiah. And that time was up when Jesus rode into Jerusalem as the Messiah on or about April 6, 32 AD. People can Google April 6, 32 AD to get the story on that.

What are the seventy weeks of Daniel?

Of course non-Messianic Jews will always deny that time-determination but that's fine.

You've switched gears again. I'm telling you quite plainly what the Talmud and what the Rambam is referring to when they talk about the secrets of the coming of the Moshiach, it's cited in the text you included several times. Nowhere does he cite or mention Daniel 9. As for the explanation of Daniel 9 I believe we covered this earlier.

 

[Sherman123]

And yes we reject the Christological chronology which we believe is little more than an effort to torture Daniel into conformity with Christian prophecy. I can provide reasons why, but that is separate from the question you posed of what we think Daniel 9 actually refers to.