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Creating Terrorists, Why do we continue to do it?

Yeah, its telling that I put more stock on the people's perspective that actually lived through that time when FDR helped the economy (and reelected him 3 times in gratitude), than I do on revisionist spin.

:lol: yeah, whereas i guess it's telling that i rely on things like numbers. and basic economics. whereas you seem to think that these things are trumped by the fact that an amazingly gifted speaker who was the first to dominate the new medium was popular. :rolleyes:

if you can counter any of the facts i posted i would love to see them.
 
Refresh my memory: Which nation gave arms to Iraq to fight against Iran in the 80's?

In 1991, all the Iraqi tanks were made in Russia...same with most of their jets, rifles, missiles, etc., etc. There were some French stuff too.
 
Hmm, started earlier than I thought, little wonder then SS is in trouble.
"you first have to understand that the government has been robbing the Social Security trust for years--that is, spending Social Security tax proceeds on the rest of the budget, to the tune of about $200 billion a year. So although Social Security now enjoys a theoretical surplus of $2.5 trillion, what it really possesses is that amount in IOUs."

oh i do. i understand quite clearly; that's why i'm one of the few people who actually advocate saving it via privatization rather than letting it destroy itself and us in the process.

Can you shoot me a link to the section in the constitution that makes the US responsible for global security?

:rofl i will do that as soon as you shoot me the link to the section where the US is responsible for controlling healthcare, subsidizing retirement, fixing prices, or ANY part of the New Deal (which was, btw, struck down as unconstitutional until FDR got to pack the court with 7 appointees).
 
if you can counter any of the facts i posted i would love to see them.

Thanks for your efforts, but I think I will stick with the position taken both by historians and the people that lived during that period, which I have already documented in this thread.

Historians rate FDR one of the top 3 presidents, ahead of Thomas Jefferson. The majority of the public of that period reelected him 3 times for the good job he did.
 
I see someone is still in here pushing their hate America jihadist appeasing agenda. Don't you have a circular firing squad to attend?
 
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oh i do. i understand quite clearly; that's why i'm one of the few people who actually advocate saving it via privatization rather than letting it destroy itself and us in the process.

That idea has not been brought up much since everyone would have lost most of their retirement in the stock market crash. But you go for it!

Or, we could lock the funds so they cannot be borrowed against as Al Gore suggested in 2000. You know when we decided to elect the cowboy instead, who doubled the national debt.

i will do that as soon as you shoot me the link to the section where the US is responsible for controlling healthcare, subsidizing retirement, fixing prices, or ANY part of the New Deal.

Certainly ~ "To Provide for the General Welfare" - Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution as upheld by the Supreme Court still today.

By the rule of law, they are in fact in keeping with the Constitution.
 
Certainly ~ "To Provide for the General Welfare" - Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution as upheld by the Supreme Court still today.

By the rule of law, they are in fact in keeping with the Constitution.

And providing national security is, also, in the interest of the General Welfare.
 
Certainly ~ "To Provide for the General Welfare" - Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution as upheld by the Supreme Court still today.
Reading that as liberals do it warrants the government providing nearly everything.:lol:

But when read within the context of the document it is a part of it warrants far less and certainly not forcing one tax payer to pay for the health care services of another and dictating to doctors what they can charge for their services.
 
Reading that as liberals do it warrants the government providing nearly everything.:lol:

But when read within the context of the document it is a part of it warrants far less and certainly not forcing one tax payer to pay for the health care services of another and dictating to doctors what they can charge for their services.

I really appreciate your interpretation of the Constitution Scummy, but I will go with the rule of law, which makes the Supreme Court the official entity to interpret whether something is allowed under the Constitution.

Unless of course you can reference where in the Constitution it says that interpretations will be made by Scummy.

I'll wait! ;)
 
I really appreciate your interpretation of the Constitution Scummy, but I will go with the rule of law, which makes the Supreme Court the official entity to interpret whether something is allowed under the Constitution.
Oh, you mean like as in Scot v. Sanford.
 
Oh, you mean like as in Scot v. Sanford.

Yes ~ "in the Slaughter-House Cases of 1873 the Court stated that at least one part of it had already been overruled in 1868 by the Fourteenth Amendment:

The first observation we have to make on this clause is, that it puts at rest both the questions which we stated to have been the subject of differences of opinion. It declares that persons may be citizens of the United States without regard to their citizenship of a particular State, and it overturns the Dred Scott decision by making all persons born within the United States and subject to its jurisdiction citizens of the United States."


Dred Scott v. Sandford - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Thanks for your efforts, but I think I will stick with the position taken both by historians and the people that lived during that period, which I have already documented in this thread.

bad news for you; both the people I cited are highly respected historians, and one of them has a dual role as an economist.

if, for example, you could provide evidence that FDR did not have tons of crops and millions of animals destroyed in order to deliberately make food harder to buy; i and the rest of the historical community would be fascinated by it.

:) Or, if you like, I can go and get more citations from more historians and more economists, all saying roughly the same thing: FDR's policies, as much as they had any kind of coherent direction, unnecessarily prolonged the Great Depression.


However, color me curious. If the people are always right as demonstrated by their vote, do you consider the Healthcare Reform now to be anathema, since it has been rejected by the people so thoroughly? Do you think that George W Bush was an excellent President since he was reelected?

or is it just that you have no evidence, no logic, and nowhere to go but to keep pointing out that FDR managed to bribe enough people with their own money to keep getting reelected?
 
That idea has not been brought up much since everyone would have lost most of their retirement in the stock market crash. But you go for it!

everyone didn't lose "most" of their retirement in the crash. they lost a good chunk.

HOWEVER, as those of us in the "fact based community" (i think i'm going to appropriate that phrase) know, even when you factor in the recent crash, the average growth for the SP 500 since it started back in the 19th Century has been about 8.4%. and if you change that to 1982 to today, it's 9.5 (that's accounting for inflation). that's the beauty of dollar cost averaging and compound interest.

but hey, you don't have to take my word for it: check out where it's already been done, here in the United States:

A specific example of smaller local units of government choosing to opt out of Social Security to design their own pension plans occurred in 1981, when Congress still allowed government units to make that choice. The three Texas gulf coast counties of Brazoria, Galveston, and Matagorda selected a private investment firm to manage their employees’ retirement plans with a guaranteed annual return of 6.5 percent.

By 1996 the results were in, and county employees’ retirement benefits were triple what would have been paid by Social Security for a worker who earned $20,000 per year and over five times the Social Security benefits for a worker whose pay was $50,000.

Or, we could lock the funds so they cannot be borrowed against as Al Gore suggested in 2000.

:confused: what part of "started to draw a deficite last fall; years ahead of schedule is confusing? the time for "lockboxes" was 40 years ago, and even then it's questionable whether or not it would have worked.

You know when we decided to elect the cowboy instead, who doubled the national debt.

ah, but the people elected him, so obviously he was the right choice, right? :roll:

Certainly ~ "To Provide for the General Welfare" - Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution as upheld by the Supreme Court still today.

By the rule of law, they are in fact in keeping with the Constitution.

:) first off, that's not what the article means and anyone who has studied the era knows it. That's ole Holmes again, bastard that he was. secondly, it makes it easy enough. providing the lynchpin for international security undergirds world stability, creating available markets for American producers and consumers. it increases our standard of living, and ensures no reasonable direct threat of invasion. hence, it too falls under "General Welfare" :)
 
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I really appreciate your interpretation of the Constitution Scummy, but I will go with the rule of law, which makes the Supreme Court the official entity to interpret whether something is allowed under the Constitution.

Unless of course you can reference where in the Constitution it says that interpretations will be made by Scummy.

:) i'd like to see you reference the section where it says that Constitutionality will be determined solely by the Supreme Court? ;)
 
both the people I cited are highly respected historians, and one of them has a dual role as an economist.

Both of them? As in two people? :lol:

George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Franklin D. Roosevelt are consistently ranked at the top of the lists.
Often ranked just below those three are Presidents Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt."

"By contrast, Ronald Reagan and John F. Kennedy tend to score highly in popular opinion polls, but rank highly less often in polls of historians because their negative qualities have been largely forgotten,"


"Notable scholar surveys

The 1948 poll was conducted by historian Arthur M. Schlesinger, Sr. of Harvard University.[2] The 1962 survey was also conducted by Schlesinger, who surveyed 75 historians; the results of this survey are given in the book The Complete Book of U.S. Presidents by William A. Degregorio. Schlesinger's son Arthur M. Schlesinger, Jr. conducted another poll in 1996, not currently on the chart below.
The Complete Book of U.S. Presidents also gives the results of the 1982 survey, a poll of 49 historians conducted by the Chicago Tribune. A notable difference from the 1962 Schlesinger poll was the ranking of President Dwight D. Eisenhower, who was ranked #22 in 1962, but was ranked #9 in the 1982 survey.
The Siena Research Institute of Siena College conducted surveys in 1982, 1990, 1994, and 2002. The 1994 survey placed only two Presidents, Franklin Roosevelt and Abraham Lincoln, above 80 points, and placed two Presidents, Andrew Johnson and Warren G. Harding, below 50 points.[3][dead link][4][dead link]
The 1996 column shows the results from a poll conducted from 1989 to 1996 by William J. Ridings, Jr. and Stuart B. McIver, and published in the book Rating the Presidents: A Ranking of U.S. leaders, from the Great and Honorable to the Dishonest and Incompetent. More than 719 people took part in the poll, primarily academic historians and political scientists, although some politicians and celebrities also took part. Participants from every state were included, and emphasis was placed upon getting input from female historians and "specialists in African-American studies", as well as a few non-American historians. Poll respondents rated the Presidents in five categories (leadership qualities, accomplishments & crisis management, political skill, appointments, character & integrity), and the results were tabulated to create the overall ranking.
A 2000 survey by The Wall Street Journal consisted of an "ideologically balanced group of 132 prominent professors of history, law, and political science". This poll sought to include an equal number of liberals and conservatives in the survey, as the editors argued that previous polls were dominated by either one group or the other, but never balanced. According to the editors, this poll included responses from more women, minorities, and young professors than the 1996 Schlesinger poll. The editors noted that the results of their poll were "remarkably similar" to the 1996 Schlesinger poll, with the main difference in the 2000 poll being the lower rankings for the 1960s presidents Lyndon B. Johnson and John F. Kennedy, and higher ranking of President Ronald Reagan at #8. Franklin Roosevelt still ranked in the top three.
Another presidential poll was conducted by The Wall Street Journal in 2005, with James Lindgren of Northwestern University Law School for the Federalist Society.[5] As in the 2000 survey, the editors sought to balance the opinions of liberals and conservatives, adjusting the results "to give Democratic- and Republican-leaning scholars equal weight." Franklin D. Roosevelt still ranked in the top-three, but editor James Taranto noted that Democratic-leaning scholars rated George W. Bush the sixth-worst president of all time, while Republican scholars rated him the sixth-best, giving him a split-decision rating of "average".
A 2006 Siena College poll of 744 professors reported the following results:[6]
• "George W. Bush has just finished five years as President. If today were the last day of his presidency, how would you rank him? The responses were: Great: 2%; Near Great: 5%; Average: 11%; Below Average: 24%; Failure: 58%."
• "In your judgment, do you think he has a realistic chance of improving his rating?” Two-thirds (67%) responded no; less than a quarter (23%) responded yes; and 10% chose no opinion or not applicable."
Thomas Kelly, professor emeritus of American studies at Siena College, said: "President Bush would seem to have small hope for high marks from the current generation of practicing historians and political scientists. In this case, current public opinion polls actually seem to cut the President more slack than the experts do." Dr. Douglas Lonnstrom, Siena College professor of statistics and director of the Siena Research Institute, stated: "In our 2002 presidential rating, with a group of experts comparable to this current poll, President Bush ranked 23rd of 42 presidents. That was shortly after 9/11. Clearly, the professors do not think things have gone well for him in the past few years. These are the experts that teach college students today and will write the history of this era tomorrow."[6]
The C-SPAN Survey of Presidential Leadership consists of rankings from a group of presidential historians and "professional observers of the presidency"[7] who ranked presidents in a number of categories initially in 2000 and more recently in 2009.[8][9] With some minor variation, both surveys found that historians consider Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, and Franklin D. Roosevelt the three best presidents by a wide margin and William Henry Harrison (to a lesser extent), Warren G. Harding, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, and James Buchanan the worst."
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents]Historical rankings of Presidents of the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Both of them? As in two people?

:shrug: those were the two i was reading from.

The 1948 poll[/B] was conducted by historian Arthur M. Schlesinger, Sr. of Harvard University.[2] The 1962 survey was also conducted by Schlesinger


HAH, well there's your problem, right there. ;)

just for funsies' here's an interesting report on the effect of wage and cost controls that FDR instituted, from UCLA:

...After scrutinizing Roosevelt's record for four years, Harold L. Cole and Lee E. Ohanian conclude in a new study that New Deal policies signed into law 71 years ago thwarted economic recovery for seven long years.

"Why the Great Depression lasted so long has always been a great mystery, and because we never really knew the reason, we have always worried whether we would have another 10- to 15-year economic slump," said Ohanian, vice chair of UCLA's Department of Economics. "We found that a relapse isn't likely unless lawmakers gum up a recovery with ill-conceived stimulus policies."

In an article in the August issue of the Journal of Political Economy, Ohanian and Cole blame specific anti-competition and pro-labor measures that Roosevelt promoted and signed into law June 16, 1933.

"President Roosevelt believed that excessive competition was responsible for the Depression by reducing prices and wages, and by extension reducing employment and demand for goods and services," said Cole, also a UCLA professor of economics. "So he came up with a recovery package that would be unimaginable today, allowing businesses in every industry to collude without the threat of antitrust prosecution and workers to demand salaries about 25 percent above where they ought to have been, given market forces. The economy was poised for a beautiful recovery, but that recovery was stalled by these misguided policies."

Using data collected in 1929 by the Conference Board and the Bureau of Labor Statistics, Cole and Ohanian were able to establish average wages and prices across a range of industries just prior to the Depression. By adjusting for annual increases in productivity, they were able to use the 1929 benchmark to figure out what prices and wages would have been during every year of the Depression had Roosevelt's policies not gone into effect. They then compared those figures with actual prices and wages as reflected in the Conference Board data.

In the three years following the implementation of Roosevelt's policies, wages in 11 key industries averaged 25 percent higher than they otherwise would have done, the economists calculate. But unemployment was also 25 percent higher than it should have been, given gains in productivity.

Meanwhile, prices across 19 industries averaged 23 percent above where they should have been, given the state of the economy. With goods and services that much harder for consumers to afford, demand stalled and the gross national product floundered at 27 percent below where it otherwise might have been.

"High wages and high prices in an economic slump run contrary to everything we know about market forces in economic downturns," Ohanian said. "As we've seen in the past several years, salaries and prices fall when unemployment is high. By artificially inflating both, the New Deal policies short-circuited the market's self-correcting forces."

The policies were contained in the National Industrial Recovery Act (NIRA), which exempted industries from antitrust prosecution if they agreed to enter into collective bargaining agreements that significantly raised wages. Because protection from antitrust prosecution all but ensured higher prices for goods and services, a wide range of industries took the bait, Cole and Ohanian found. By 1934 more than 500 industries, which accounted for nearly 80 percent of private, non-agricultural employment, had entered into the collective bargaining agreements called for under NIRA.

Cole and Ohanian calculate that NIRA and its aftermath account for 60 percent of the weak recovery. Without the policies, they contend that the Depression would have ended in 1936 instead of the year when they believe the slump actually ended: 1943....

..."This is exciting and valuable research," said Robert E. Lucas Jr., the 1995 Nobel Laureate in economics, and the John Dewey Distinguished Service Professor of Economics at the University of Chicago. "The prevention and cure of depressions is a central mission of macroeconomics, and if we can't understand what happened in the 1930s, how can we be sure it won't happen again?"

NIRA's role in prolonging the Depression has not been more closely scrutinized because the Supreme Court declared the act unconstitutional within two years of its passage.

"Historians have assumed that the policies didn't have an impact because they were too short-lived, but the proof is in the pudding," Ohanian said. "We show that they really did artificially inflate wages and prices."

Even after being deemed unconstitutional, Roosevelt's anti-competition policies persisted — albeit under a different guise, the scholars found. Ohanian and Cole painstakingly documented the extent to which the Roosevelt administration looked the other way as industries once protected by NIRA continued to engage in price-fixing practices for four more years.
 
Article III, Section 1 ~

"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."
U.S. Senate: Reference Home > Constitution of the United States

Here, i'll copy paste the entire article for you:

The judicial power of the United States, shall be vested in one Supreme Court, and in such inferior courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish. The judges, both of the supreme and inferior courts, shall hold their offices during good behaviour, and shall, at stated times, receive for their services, a compensation, which shall not be diminished during their continuance in office.

The judicial power shall extend to all cases, in law and equity, arising under this Constitution, the laws of the United States, and treaties made, or which shall be made, under their authority;--to all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls;--to all cases of admiralty and maritime jurisdiction;--to controversies to which the United States shall be a party;--to controversies between two or more states;--between a state and citizens of another state;--between citizens of different states;--between citizens of the same state claiming lands under grants of different states, and between a state, or the citizens thereof, and foreign states, citizens or subjects.

In all cases affecting ambassadors, other public ministers and consuls, and those in which a state shall be party, the Supreme Court shall have original jurisdiction. In all the other cases before mentioned, the Supreme Court shall have appellate jurisdiction, both as to law and fact, with such exceptions, and under such regulations as the Congress shall make.

The trial of all crimes, except in cases of impeachment, shall be by jury; and such trial shall be held in the state where the said crimes shall have been committed; but when not committed within any state, the trial shall be at such place or places as the Congress may by law have directed.

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the punishment of treason, but no attainder of treason shall work corruption of blood, or forfeiture except during the life of the person attainted.

if you can point out the portion to me that states that the Supreme Court is the sole arbiter of whether or not something is Constitutional, I would be much obliged. especially since such a section is so sneaky that the Founding Fathers themselves apparently missed it.

Thomas Jefferson said:
"The question whether the judges are invested with exclusive authority to decide on the constitutionality of a law has been heretofore a subject of consideration with me in the exercise of official duties. Certainly there is not a word in the Constitution which has given that power to them more than to the Executive or Legislative branches."

"To consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions [is] a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarchy. Our judges are as honest as other men and not more so. They have with others the same passions for party, for power, and the privilege of their corps. Their maxim is boni judicis est ampliare jurisdictionem [good justice is broad jurisdiction], and their power the more dangerous as they are in office for life and not responsible, as the other functionaries are, to the elective control. The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal, knowing that to whatever hands confided, with the corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots. It has more wisely made all the departments co-equal and co-sovereign within themselves."

oh, and of course, this doozy:

James Madison said:
"With respect to the words "general welfare," I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators." -

but that's another debate ;)
 
those were the two i was reading from.

I think I will have to go with the hundreds of historians and scholars from 1948 to the present I referenced that have judged FDR one of the top 3 presidents, ahead of Thomas Jefferson.
 
I think I will have to go with the hundreds of historians and scholars from 1948 to the present I referenced that have judged FDR one of the top 3 presidents, ahead of Thomas Jefferson.

i'm still waiting for any of those hundreds of awesome historians to refute anything that i posted. :)

though i do note that you've been willing to throw the people under the bus after it was pointed out to you that that logic would have you supporting any US president. ;)
 
if you can point out the portion to me that states that the Supreme Court is the sole arbiter of whether or not something is Constitutional, I would be much obliged.

I already did ~

"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."
 
i'm still waiting for any of those hundreds of awesome historians to refute anything that i posted. :)

Make your case to historians then. Until you convince them, the record stands.
 
I already did ~

"The judicial Power of the United States, shall be vested in one supreme Court, and in such inferior Courts as the Congress may from time to time ordain and establish."

ummm i hate to be the one to break it to you, but nowhere in that does that state that the Supreme Court shall determine what is and is not Constitutional .
 
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