Bill Clinton's advice on gun control [W:41]

[joko104]

Don't tell me you are one of "those". You and Timothy McVeigh and a few others are the only ones that even remember that Wacko in Waco. He murdered 4 Federal agents you know.

I remember Waco. I remember Joe Biden claiming the little children whose muscles so contorted to cyanide they poured in with military tanks it broke those children's backs - for which Biden declared those children had "committed suicide." I also remember the jury found the people the government tried to charge with murder "NOT GUILTY."

The AG thought she'd make the Baptists and other conservatives happy for her coming run for the Senate by killing everyone at the wicked polygamist cult in the heart of Baptist country. Turns out she murdered a whole bunch of people for nothing other than to be intensely hated.

 

[iguanaman]

I remember Waco. I remember Joe Biden claiming the little children whose muscles so contorted to cyanide they poured in with military tanks it broke those children's backs - for which Biden declared those children had "committed suicide." I also remember the jury found the people the government tried to charge with murder "NOT GUILTY."

The AG thought she'd make the Baptists and other conservatives happy for her coming run for the Senate by killing everyone at the wicked polygamist cult in the heart of Baptist country. Turns out she murdered a whole bunch of people for nothing other than to be intensely hated.

The murderers died in the fire they started along with many innocent children. Any other account is pure fantasy and the stuff cults are made of.

 

[Shewter]

If we don't trivialize "gun culture", then they shouldn't trivialize our concerns about guns and "gun culture." I have seen little evidence that those immersed in gun culture are even capable of taking my and others' concerns about guns seriously even when I and others talk to them respectfully and concede points. As such, I don't give a damn about their feelings.

This is why I'll never be a politician.

How many more concessions do you want from us?

Select fire small arms are HIGHLY regulated and in most cases unattainable. I.E. manufacture post 1986, or state law prohibited.
To buy a firearm from a dealer we submit to background checks.
Our rifles have to have a minimum barrel length of 16" unless we register with the National Firearms Act and pay the government a couple bills, if your state even allows it.
Our Shotguns have to have a minimum barrel length of 18" unless we register with the National Firearms Act and pay the government a couple bills, if your state even allows it.
Our pistols cannot have a fore-grip on them without being registered with the National Firearms Act and pay the government a couple bills, if your state even allows it.
MANY firearms have been barred from importation. Firearms that have no difference to the ones we buy here in the U.S.
We have laws like 922r compliance that force us to use different parts in foreign weapons we own. The same spec, same function, they just can't be "original" parts.
If you buy (example) an AR-15 and an AR-15 Pistol Upper receiver group, you can be prosecuted for "intent" to manufacture a short barreled rifle.
We cannot use M16 parts in an AR-15 because it's considered a "machine gun" even though it is still incapable of select fire.
We cannot purchase suppressors for our weapons without registering with the national firearms act and paying the government a couple bills, if your state even allows it.
We cannot purchase more than nine of the same firearm within one fiscal year without being considered a "dealer" and have to purchase an FLL or face federal prosecution.

The list goes on.

The point is, concessions have been made, and frankly, we're getting tired of it. Deal with the problem, not the accessories. Ask no more from gun owners until you're ready to trade some of the above.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

If we don't trivialize "gun culture", then they shouldn't trivialize our concerns about guns and "gun culture." I have seen little evidence that those immersed in gun culture are even capable of taking my and others' concerns about guns seriously even when I and others talk to them respectfully and concede points.

Your “concerns” mean that we should “compromise” in giving up essential rights, while getting nothing at all in return except a false promise of increased safety, while, in reality, we are made less safe. What is there in that that anyone should take seriously?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Bill Clinton is a much more savvy politician than Obama.

I think the biggest difference between them is that Obama is an idealist, while Clinton is a political whore.

Both come from similar sets of political beliefs, but when he was President, Clinton was willing to do anything to stay in office, and to stay “relevant”, even if it meant going along with policies that were diametrically opposed to his beliefs. We saw this clearly when he started out his first term, pursuing very much the same sort of policies that Obama has pursued. This ended with the next election in 1994, when, riding on the backlash against Clinton's extreme leftist policies, Republicans took control of both houses of Congress for the first time in forty years. From that point on, through the rest of his term, through the election, and through his second term, Clinton stayed in some semblance of power and relevance only by going along with the policies promoted by the Republican-controlled Congress.

Obama seems determined to stick to his policies, no matter how unpopular they are, and no matter how unable he will be to get Congress to go along with them.

 

[Bob Blaylock]

Was that before or after Waco?
Waco siege - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Don't tell me you are one of "those". You and Timothy McVeigh and a few others are the only ones that even remember that Wacko in Waco. He murdered 4 Federal agents you know.

You have that backward.

It was government forces that initiated the violence, in the complete absence of any legal or moral cause to do so. It was government forces who murdered eighty-six members of that cult. The four government criminals who were killed were legitimately killed in self-defense.

 

[iguanaman]

You have that backward.

It was government forces that initiated the violence, in the complete absence of any legal or moral cause to do so. It was government forces who murdered eighty-six members of that cult. The four government criminals who were killed were legitimately killed in self-defense.

And Timothy McVeigh legitimately killed 168 as retribution too I suppose. Those Federal agents were killed in Waco executing a search warrant. That is NOT self-defense that is murder and you are a co-conspirator.

 

[blaxshep]

And Timothy McVeigh legitimately killed 168 as retribution too I suppose. Those Federal agents were killed in Waco executing a search warrant. That is NOT self-defense that is murder and you are a co-conspirator.

Typical liberal response, the benevolent governmnet is always in the right and would never hurt a citizen. The truth is that all of the deaths are on the government's hands and these events are proof that the 2nd amendment idea of the people's right to keep and bare arms to protect them selves from tyranny are well founded.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Typical liberal response, the benevolent governmnet is always in the right and would never hurt a citizen. The truth is that all of the deaths are on the government's hands and these events are proof that the 2nd amendment idea of the people's right to keep and bare arms to protect them selves from tyranny are well founded.

Laws requiring long sleeved shirts are just unconstitutional, I tell you, unconstitutional!

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Clinton is a politician. Obama is an activist.

I think the biggest difference between them is that Obama is an idealist, while Clinton is a political whore.

Clinton is from Arkansas.

A lot of people miss a lot of school and work during deer season here.
People don't ask if you own a gun here. They ask what kinds of guns you own.

 

[VanceMack]

Bill Clintons advice on ALL matters..."get yourself a chubby girlfriend with low self esteem and stay indoors"

 

[Masada]

The murderers died in the fire they started along with many innocent children. Any other account is pure fantasy and the stuff cults are made of.

Oh please, the whole thing was on television for Christ sake. Just ironic that the fire started AFTER the government started messing with them, not before. Ya, why did they choose "that day" to start the fire???? pfffff, gimme a freakin break, we all watched it unfold on television.

Just goes to show, the government doesn't like being told "F you". They don't let little things like "rights" get in the way of what they want. They don't live by the same "laws" everyone else does. They're the big bad gubment, that you're supposed to bow down and worship. Especially now that the "second coming" of Obama is at hand.

 

[Tigger]

Typical liberal response, the benevolent governmnet is always in the right and would never hurt a citizen. The truth is that all of the deaths are on the government's hands and these events are proof that the 2nd amendment idea of the people's right to keep and bare arms to protect them selves from tyranny are well founded.

blax, you and I have agreed on a number of these firearms issues over the last couple weeks, but using the Waco example to support our claims is just not the best idea. There were mistakes made by BOTH sides in the Waco incident; and many of them happened long before the FBI and BATFE agents rolled up onto the compound. Koresh and his people have to share the blame with the AG and the Agents/Officers on site. Neither side really has any moral high ground to stand on, or common sense to spare from that incident.

 

[Masada]

blax, you and I have agreed on a number of these firearms issues over the last couple weeks, but using the Waco example to support our claims is just not the best idea. There were mistakes made by BOTH sides in the Waco incident; and many of them happened long before the FBI and BATFE agents rolled up onto the compound. Koresh and his people have to share the blame with the AG and the Agents/Officers on site. Neither side really has any moral high ground to stand on, or common sense to spare from that incident.

I call BS on this. What law did Koresh or those people break?

They were assembled peacefully. They did not possess any "illegal" firearms. They have every right to believe how they want religiously. They had every right to own the property they were on. They had threatened no one.

Waco is the prime example of this: It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, if you don't DO what the government tells you to do, they will legitimize themselves coming in and killing you. They will spin it any which way they want. Despite the fact you have broken no law, injured no person, or caused a single problem. If they tell you to do something, and you don't do it, they'll kill you if they want to.

Now, that's not America. That's straight up BS. Koresh and his people don't have any blame to share in. You can't kill Americans for disobedience. What is this? Iran? Russia? China? Gassing children. Setting the place ablaze. Running it over with military tanks. Give me a freakin break......for what? Because they wouldn't do what they were told. If they can do it to Koresh, they can do it to you, me, any one of us. As long as they make you out to be some fanatic, it'll get swept under the rug. Which is why liberals try so hard to paint gun owners as "fanatics".

 

[Tigger]

I call BS on this. What law did Koresh or those people break?

They were assembled peacefully. They did not possess any "illegal" firearms. They have every right to believe how they want religiously. They had every right to own the property they were on. They had threatened no one.

The FBI was origionally investingating the Branch Davidians on Tax Evasion issues. In an attempt to get into the compound and to get Koresh's "assistance" they ran a gun sting on him; getting him to agree to purchase an illegally modified shotgun. The sting was illegal, but he was stupid to agree to purchase the firearm, and there appears to have been something to the Tax Evasion charges as well.

None of this was related to their religious beliefs or ownership of the property. Koresh never took possession of the illegally modified shotgun. However, they did place themselves in a position to be suspect to the authorities, and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense should know that once the Feds get you in their sights they're not going away quietly.

Waco is the prime example of this: It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, if you don't DO what the government tells you to do, they will legitimize themselves coming in and killing you. They will spin it any which way they want. Despite the fact you have broken no law, injured no person, or caused a single problem. If they tell you to do something, and you don't do it, they'll kill you if they want to.

Now, that's not America. That's straight up BS. Koresh and his people don't have any blame to share in. You can't kill Americans for disobedience. What is this? Iran? Russia? China? Gassing children. Setting the place ablaze. Running it over with military tanks. Give me a freakin break......for what? Because they wouldn't do what they were told. If they can do it to Koresh, they can do it to you, me, any one of us. As long as they make you out to be some fanatic, it'll get swept under the rug. Which is why liberals try so hard to paint gun owners as "fanatics".

They can't kill Americans solely for disobedience. However, once they start shooting at the Law Enforcement Officers on their front lawn, that changes a whole lot of things.

The FBI/BATFE raid was one of the worst planned and executed things I've ever seen in my life. It was poorly planned, carried out with no real preparation or rehearsal, and led by individuals with such a high sense of themselves that even after they should have known that their element of surprise had been lost they continued with it anyway. At that point the agencies involved, and especially the higher ups who had ordered the raid had no other choice than to engage in the besiegement of the compound and try to find a way to save face (because that's what bureaucrats with no field experience do). The end of the standoff was as poorly planned and executed as the initial raid.

I have long expected, as a gun owner, that there was/is/always will be a high likelihood that my life will end facing Government agents of one sort or another. It's not something that I look forward to, but it shouldn't be that much of a shock to anyone these days.

 

[VanceMack]

The FBI was origionally investingating the Branch Davidians on Tax Evasion issues. In an attempt to get into the compound and to get Koresh's "assistance" they ran a gun sting on him; getting him to agree to purchase an illegally modified shotgun. The sting was illegal, but he was stupid to agree to purchase the firearm, and there appears to have been something to the Tax Evasion charges as well.

None of this was related to their religious beliefs or ownership of the property. Koresh never took possession of the illegally modified shotgun. However, they did place themselves in a position to be suspect to the authorities, and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense should know that once the Feds get you in their sights they're not going away quietly.



They can't kill Americans solely for disobedience. However, once they start shooting at the Law Enforcement Officers on their front lawn, that changes a whole lot of things.

The FBI/BATFE raid was one of the worst planned and executed things I've ever seen in my life. It was poorly planned, carried out with no real preparation or rehearsal, and led by individuals with such a high sense of themselves that even after they should have known that their element of surprise had been lost they continued with it anyway. At that point the agencies involved, and especially the higher ups who had ordered the raid had no other choice than to engage in the besiegement of the compound and try to find a way to save face (because that's what bureaucrats with no field experience do). The end of the standoff was as poorly planned and executed as the initial raid.

I have long expected, as a gun owner, that there was/is/always will be a high likelihood that my life will end facing Government agents of one sort or another. It's not something that I look forward to, but it shouldn't be that much of a shock to anyone these days.

I believe you mixed your events. Pretty sure the gun sting was with Randy Weaver, and not Koresch...unless Im mistaken. Regardless...the FBI knew everything about the mans schedule. They could have taken him at any time including his regularly scheduled jogging outings where he was alone, unarmed, and off campus. Waco was as much a cluster**** as was Ruby Ridge.

 

[Tigger]

I believe you mixed your events. Pretty sure the gun sting was with Randy Weaver, and not Koresch...unless Im mistaken. Regardless...the FBI knew everything about the mans schedule. They could have taken him at any time including his regularly scheduled jogging outings where he was alone, unarmed, and off campus. Waco was as much a cluster**** as was Ruby Ridge.

Randy Weaver was a slightly different "gun sting", but a very similar activity by the FBI/BATF in both cases. An activity which the judiciary has now ruled to be entrapment, by the way. You are correct that the FBI had several opportunities to take Koresh into custody and chose not to take them. Their reasoning was two-fold: 1) They wanted to get inside the compound, and knew that the minute he didn't come back the others had orders to lock the place down and start destroying things and 2) They wanted to make an example out of the Branch Davidians, so that other "radicals" didn't get any more ideas. They failed completely in both parts of their reasoning.

Both events were FUBAR from the word "Go". In both cases the Government seriously underestimated the capabilities and stubbornness of their quarry and what the public reaction to their actions would be. Just as I believe they are currently underestimating the response from the general public to the new gun regulations we're seeing bandied about will be.

 

[Grant]

And Timothy McVeigh legitimately killed 168 as retribution too I suppose. Those Federal agents were killed in Waco executing a search warrant. That is NOT self-defense that is murder and you are a co-conspirator.

Timothy McVeigh had nothing to do with Waco. You supposed wrong.

 

[iguanaman]

Timothy McVeigh had nothing to do with Waco. You supposed wrong.

Really? Did you know that he was at Waco during the seige?

Timothy McVeigh in Waco, 1993

 

[iguanaman]

The FBI was origionally investingating the Branch Davidians on Tax Evasion issues. In an attempt to get into the compound and to get Koresh's "assistance" they ran a gun sting on him; getting him to agree to purchase an illegally modified shotgun. The sting was illegal, but he was stupid to agree to purchase the firearm, and there appears to have been something to the Tax Evasion charges as well.

None of this was related to their religious beliefs or ownership of the property. Koresh never took possession of the illegally modified shotgun. However, they did place themselves in a position to be suspect to the authorities, and anyone with the slightest bit of common sense should know that once the Feds get you in their sights they're not going away quietly.



They can't kill Americans solely for disobedience. However, once they start shooting at the Law Enforcement Officers on their front lawn, that changes a whole lot of things.

The FBI/BATFE raid was one of the worst planned and executed things I've ever seen in my life. It was poorly planned, carried out with no real preparation or rehearsal, and led by individuals with such a high sense of themselves that even after they should have known that their element of surprise had been lost they continued with it anyway. At that point the agencies involved, and especially the higher ups who had ordered the raid had no other choice than to engage in the besiegement of the compound and try to find a way to save face (because that's what bureaucrats with no field experience do). The end of the standoff was as poorly planned and executed as the initial raid.

I have long expected, as a gun owner, that there was/is/always will be a high likelihood that my life will end facing Government agents of one sort or another. It's not something that I look forward to, but it shouldn't be that much of a shock to anyone these days.

That must mean you plan on murdering Federal agents. In that case you will get what you deserve, no doubt. Guns will not protect you from the rule of law.

 

[Tigger]

That must mean you plan on murdering Federal agents. In that case you will get what you deserve, no doubt. Guns will not protect you from the rule of law.

Nope. No murdering at all. I do have a plan to defend myself if beset upon by agents of the Local, State, or Federal Government but beyond that I see no need to be taking agressive, pre-emptive action against the Government at this time.

In certain cases I tend to believe the opposite of Col. Jeff Cooper's well known "I'd rather be judged by twelve men than carried by six." axiom.

 

[LaMidRighter]

That must mean you plan on murdering Federal agents. In that case you will get what you deserve, no doubt. Guns will not protect you from the rule of law.

Hate to break this to you, but it's not murder of a federal agent if they are acting outside of the law. Ask the survivors of Ruby Ridge.

 

[iguanaman]

Hate to break this to you, but it's not murder of a federal agent if they are acting outside of the law. Ask the survivors of Ruby Ridge.

You can always tell a wacko when they mention Waco or Ruby Ridge. They give gunowners a bad name, keep it up.

 

[LaMidRighter]

You can always tell a wacko when they mention Waco or Ruby Ridge. They give gunowners a bad name, keep it up.

Ruby Ridge was judged BY the government to be beyond the scope of the law. In fact 12 of the agents involved were convicted of multiple federal charges. The kicker, the Federal government, which is one of the hardest entities on the planet to sue, settled the wrongful death case because they knew they would lose. The agencies involved had many charges and the least of which was entrapment. Not that crazy at all to list it, BTW, no survivors were charged with anything.

 

[Grant]

You can always tell a wacko when they mention Waco or Ruby Ridge. They give gunowners a bad name, keep it up.

The problem, has history demonstrates, almost always begins with Governments and the frequently dysfunctional use of power this creates for those who gain that power. It is folly to rely on the good will of any government.