In lieu of Dubya, I submit John Adams & all of the others with 'none' next to their names on the list provided below...
That said, hopefully you can clarify some things for me......
Excellent. Discussing the concepts I've presented. I'm all for that.
I will gladly clarify my points to the best of my abilities. Hopefully it will help illuminate the differences between my actual stance, and what it has been perceived as by others in this thread.
According to your earlier statement, is it your position that both presidents Obama & Clinton can not be 'proud' Americans due to the fact they they were never in the armed forces?..........
Actually, this is not accurate. I did NOT say "can not be 'proud' Americans". I said that they did not
earn the right to be proud of
being an American.
I can see why this would be confusing, because our culture has become one that does not place a high degree of worth on personal responsibility and accomplishment, while my stance is entirely based on personal responsibility and accomplishment.
First, being proud of
being an American is totally different from being a "proud American". Being a proud American is very general, and can include many things, such as being an American who is proud of their job/family/countrymen, etc.
Whereas being proud of
being an American means being proud of the fact that you
are an American, and nothing else. So I'm talking about a very specific type of pride here. Not a type of
person who is proud.
Next, there is a clear difference between not having
earned a "right" and actually
having a right. Anyone
has a right to be proud of being an American, but only two types of people have actually
earned that right.
Those are people for whom their status as an American is either 1. a personal accomplishment that they
achieved or 2. Something they put effort into defending in someway, which is in and of itself an achievement.
While people have a right to be proud about things they did nothing to get, it is an utterly retarded position to have. Pride is
only appropriate in situations of achievement.
For example, if I said I'm proud of the fact that my shoe size in 10 1/2, you'd probably agree that this is a very silly thing to be proud of. This is because I haven't
done anything to be proud of in this case.
The same is true for being an American in most cases. Nothing was actually done by these people in order to warrant being proud of their status as Americans. It was purely passive. They were simply born into it
Clinton and Obama have earned the right to be proud of the fact that they became Presidents, because this is a tremendous
accomplishment. But the fact that they did not actually do anything to become Americans means that they did not
earn the right to be proud of being Americans.
That doesn't mean that they
can't be proud of being Americans, it merely means that doing so is retarded.
Personally, I feel
lucky to be an American. I am
proud of the people who
have accomplished things that made it possible for me to
be lucky. But I am
humbled by
their accomplishments and sacrifices.
I am
humbled to be an American, because I am fully aware that I did not do a goddamn thing to
deserve it.
There is only one way to earn the right to be proud of yourself for something, and that is by taking an
active role in accomplishing that thing. Being born is a passive thing. And that's how most people become Americans. Some of those people then feel the need to earn that status, so they make the choice to earn it through military service. Those people, who are willing to fight for their status, earn their status
after they have received it.
I have
tremendous respect for those who have earned that which I
only received through luck.
Here is a link to the military service record of the rest of the U.s. presidents:
List of Presidents of the United States by military service - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Is it your position that any individual on this list with 'none' next to their name does not have the right to be a 'proud' American?.......
It is my position that they have not
earned that right.
They are still free to
take what they have not earned if they so choose, but my personal stance is that
taking that which one has not earned is immoral, so it is not something I myself would do.
Does this position extend to those who are incapable of service through physical disability?.......
Of course, unless they are immigrants who took an active role in becoming Americans.
Can I assume this also includes those who were barred from serving because of gender or sexual orientation?.....
Of course, unless they are immigrants who took an active role in becoming Americans.
My stance regarding being proud of being an American is simply based on logic.
I look at my being an American as a gift. It was not something I achieved or earned in any way. Most Americans are like me. They did not achieve or earn being an American.
Those who joined the military have earned their status through their actions, and those who came here from elsewhere achieved that status. I am grateful to
those people, for
they are the people who have given me this gift.
Taking
personal pride in
their accomplishments and sacrifices that have granted me this wonderful gift is a disservice to their accomplishments. I can be proud of
them, but to take that pride and apply it to myself, simply because I got lucky to be the
benefactor of their accomplishments, would be a form of theft.
That is what I meant by
earning the right to be proud.
Let me use different natural traits to explain this further. Let's look at innate intelligence versus being erudite (since I loved that whole exchange, and my point here will relate to the "seemingly" qualifier you referenced).
Intelligence is very heavily associated with genetics (but does have an environmental factor). It is not really something an individual has an ability to affect directly. Knowledge, however is something that is always
acquired by an individual in some way.
In my way of viewing things, being intelligent is nothing to be proud of since ti is not an accomplishment. Someone who is intelligent is merely lucky.
While being erudite is something one
can be proud of because it is always an accomplishment. It takes some degree of effort to become erudite.
Taking this further, though, if someone
isn't intelligent, yet they can manage to
appear or seem intelligent, the fact that they
seem intelligent despite the fact that they are not, is
definitely an accomplishment. It would absolutely require effort on their part to give this appearance.
The same is true of someone who
seems erudite even though they are not actually erudite. In order to give this appearance, they must put forth some effort. Their ignorance of the subject provides a nearly insurmountable obstacle to giving the appearance that they are indeed erudite. In order to overcome this obstacle, a
tremendous amount of effort would absolutely be required.
Perhaps even
more effort than actually becoming erudite would.
Thus, even being
seemingly erudite is an accomplishment in and of itself, and is therefore it is something a person can take pride it. It does not matter if the person who is seemingly erudite is actually erudite or actually ignorant. Either possibility means that effort and accomplishment is
always required in order to give off the appearance.
Being an idiot who
comes across as intelligent is
also something to be proud of. But being naturally intelligent is
not something to be proud of.
This is why I loved that phasing from Boomyal. It doesn't matter if the "seemingly" was put there as a qualifier to imply I am actually ignorant. I have earned the right to be proud of that label
regardless of whether or not I am ignorant. In fact, I might have done more to earn that right to be proud if I
am actually ignorant.
Here's the ironic part. If he had said I was "seemingly intelligent" instead of erudite, in an effort to imply I was actually an idiot and that "things are not always what they seem" (as you so eloquently put it), I could
only be proud of that if I
actually was an idiot. :lol:
If I really was intelligent, and I give the appearance of that, I haven't accomplished anything since that should be easy for an intelligent person to do, so I would have nothing to be proud of.
But if I was an
idiot, and I somehow managed to give the appearance that I was intelligent, well that would be one hell of an accomplishment, and something I could take pride in. :lol:
I hope this helps clarify my stance on being proud to be an American to some degree.