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Are Palestinians descended from Hebrews?

maiseycat said:
I don't at all. Like I wrote, which you didn't bold, it is no fault. It is true, I know several people who have regular dealings with Jewish people and are quite... wary of them, I guess you'd say, relaying the old stereotypes about Jews and business/money. I feel like I've taken in a lot of this without questioning, but experiences I've had with Jews, trying to learn more about my own Jewish roots, have not been positive experiences. I know that Jews face a lot of anti-semitism, but it's just really hard to have any reasonable discussions with Jews about anything religion-related. That is my experience, anyway. I'm not out to hurt anyone. I just get offended and weary over time, having the door slammed in my face. Even though I know it's wrong, I've learned to be really hesitant in my interactions with Jews because I don't want to get hurt. I've done soul-searching and come to the conclusion that it's not dislike, it's fear and feeling threatened from bad experiences.
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I get how easy it is to generalize when you have had bad experiences with people. Some people nowadays with all this political correctness garbage choose to ignore anyone who says something that is considered bigotry and it prevents them from actually understanding where these emotions originate. From talking to people who are hardcore white nationalists what strikes me is that quite a few describe living in predominantly black neighborhoods and mention many negative experiences they have had with members of the community there. Really, it is just about fear. Humans naturally tie their fears to some identifiable source. When a person has bad experiences with a group of people it can mean fearing those who appear to be members of that group.

From what you say, it is not that someone has indoctrinated you into these ideas, but that you have simply had bad experiences and misidentify the problem as being unique to a group of people. What you describe, however, is not unusual behavior for any group of people under the right circumstances. It is especially the case when you challenge or question a core belief or idea of a group. Being a bit of an iconoclast I know all too well how easy it is to piss off a whole group of people just by asking a reasonable question.
 
maiseycat said:
I don't at all. Like I wrote, which you didn't bold, it is no fault. It is true, I know several people who have regular dealings with Jewish people and are quite... wary of them, I guess you'd say, relaying the old stereotypes about Jews and business/money. I feel like I've taken in a lot of this without questioning, but experiences I've had with Jews, trying to learn more about my own Jewish roots, have not been positive experiences. I know that Jews face a lot of anti-semitism, but it's just really hard to have any reasonable discussions with Jews about anything religion-related. That is my experience, anyway. I'm not out to hurt anyone. I just get offended and weary over time, having the door slammed in my face. Even though I know it's wrong, I've learned to be really hesitant in my interactions with Jews because I don't want to get hurt. I've done soul-searching and come to the conclusion that it's not dislike, it's fear and feeling threatened from bad experiences.
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thunder as an atheist defends his roots strongly ,because in my opinion his national tendencies are based on torah even if he is not religious .because not only torah is just a divine book from god ,but also It documents the birth of nation called jew.

ın fact ,from this point of view ,islam made arabian tribes ally with each other and be formed as a nation.

this is an example of why ı find christianity universal.
 
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Medusa said:
thunder as an atheist defends his roots strongly ,because in my opinion his national tendencies are based on torah even if he is not religious .because not only torah is just a divine book from god ,but also It documents the birth of nation called jew.
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I am NOT an atheist.
 
Thunder said:
I am NOT an atheist.
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so what are you ,:roll:

I see you criticize religions ,okay maybe you are agnostic or deist or another thing ,but you are not a religious jew obeying the rules,this is what I am sure :shock:
 
Medusa said:
so what are you ,:roll:

I see you criticize religions ,okay maybe you are agnostic or deist or another thing ,but you are not a religious jew obeying the rules,this is what I am sure :shock:
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whether that is or not the case, is really none of your business.
 
Thunder said:
whether that is or not the case, is really none of your business.
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you are full of contradictions..sorry...I am telling the truth,whether you like or not .

and you dont need to be rude,we are just discussing ,not fighting..
 
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Thunder said:
I am not the subject of this thread.
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Technically, maisey is not the subject of this thread either. Doesn't seem to stop anyone from discussing her. So, getting back to the topic of this thread, I think it is important to consider that both Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews have ancestral ties to the land. Neither group is without significant admixture from other peoples, but those living there all have some claim to it as an ancestral homeland. While that sort of knowledge should not be necessary and does not negate what either side has done, it is a much easier way to give people perspective on the conflict. It would be better if people would forget the past and claims of ancestral heritage to focus on the situation today, but that usually only works until people have a true understanding of the history. Until people understand the true source of conflict, they will sooner fight over the present than seek a resolution in the present.
 
Demon of Light said:
Technically, maisey is not the subject of this thread either. Doesn't seem to stop anyone from discussing her. So, getting back to the topic of this thread, I think it is important to consider that both Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews have ancestral ties to the land. Neither group is without significant admixture from other peoples, but those living there all have some claim to it as an ancestral homeland. While that sort of knowledge should not be necessary and does not negate what either side has done, it is a much easier way to give people perspective on the conflict. It would be better if people would forget the past and claims of ancestral heritage to focus on the situation today, but that usually only works until people have a true understanding of the history. Until people understand the true source of conflict, they will sooner fight over the present than seek a resolution in the present.
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Actually I never understood the point of this claims, Jews and Arabs share some genes and share a distant ancestral mom and dad (both holly books of our people confirm that), fine, so what? Does it solve the conflict we have today? Does it help solving the conflict? Does one supposes Palestinians and Jews will hold hands and sing kumbaya all of the sudden if a scientific research will come up with decisive evidence to this ?

If anything it just proves that Jews are originated in the Middle East and not Europe making our affinity to this land stronger.
 
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ido_ said:
Actually I never understood the point of this claims, Jews and Arabs share some genes and share a distant ancestral mom and dad (both holly books of our people confirm that), fine, so what? Does it solve the conflict we have today? Does it help solving the conflict? Does one supposes Palestinians and Jews will hold hands and sing kumbaya all of the sudden if a scientific research will come up with decisive evidence to this ?

If anything it just proves that Jews are originated in the Middle East and not Europe making our affinity to this land stronger.
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That's the thing. History hardly shows that peoples with a shared ancestry usually get on. I mean, just look at the history of Europe.
 
ido_ said:
...If anything it just proves that Jews are originated in the Middle East and not Europe making our affinity to this land stronger.
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the fact is that Jews were living in Europe before the time of Jesus. 2,000+ years of not living in a land kinda ruins any claims of being the "true natives".

yes, my ancestors may have come from Palestine, but many Brits are descended from Normans & Saxons. Does this mean they should have the unbreakable right to return to France & Germany and claim it as their own?

Native Americans are descended from folks who crossed the Bering Strait from Siberia. Should the Navajo have the right to claim northeast Siberia?
 
Thunder said:
the fact is that Jews were living in Europe before the time of Jesus. 2,000+ years of not living in a land kinda ruins any claims of being the "true natives".

yes, my ancestors may have come from Palestine, but many Brits are descended from Normans & Saxons. Does this mean they should have the unbreakable right to return to France & Germany and claim it as their own?

Native Americans are descended from folks who crossed the Bering Strait from Siberia. Should the Navajo have the right to claim northeast Siberia?
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You are deflecting from the topic again, if you wanna debate on Jewish affinity to Palestine open a new thread and I'll be more than happy to react to this BS
 
maiseycat said:
What does the Koran have to do with anything? You're right, IDK much about Jewish teachings. I don't have to to know that Judaism is a very exclusive religion. Jews are God's chosen people, and, by that rite, they naturally view themselves to be superior to others. That is, of course, why many other groups have felt threatened by them since the dawn of time. This isn't something non-Jews made up to fault Jews. It isn't a fault. It is in their belief system, and something that all others are well aware of. Christianity descended from Judaism; I know Judaism does not acknowledge the Bible as a valid text, but I've learned a lot about Jews and their relationships with others through the OT.

If anything I've said is false, please correct me other than to just say I'm wrong. Since Judaism is such an enclosed religion, it isn't something I'm very familiar with. I've picked up knowledge from studying general religious history sources, but what I stated above seems to be a very commonly shared belief about your faith, if it is not the truth.

Thunder, yes, Palestine's location makes it land that many want to possess. I'm not sure what that has to do with my post that you quoted? I don't have an opinion as to whom the land should go to. I just wish all groups could live there in peace.
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ok, I'll break it down for you. The Koran is the issue because the Koran is an expressly supremacist document which sets out a policy for the continual warfare against, conversion and subjugation of non-Muslims, and has a special place of contempt for Jews given opposition to Mohammed's conquests from Jews in Arabia.

Re "god's chosen people", the idea there, briefly, is that the Jews were chosen to bear the "yoke of the commandments" (yoke being the thing put around a beast of burden to pull the plow through the soil) - which is to follow the law as laid down as a light of example to other peoples. The jews have these obligations and non-Jews do not, and live and let live. This can be very clearly contrasted to Islam, where the Koram imposes an obligation on Mohammed and his followers to conquor and convert or kill non-believers. In any event, chosen-ness is not the "you've won the lottery" kind, but the "you have been chosen to bear this burden" kind, like what happened with Moses with the burning bush. As the story goes, he was just being a regular sheppard, shepparding around a bunch of sheep, and god cam to him and told him he was to go and demand freedom for the Israelites. Moses asked why me and said surely others must be better suited for it, but god told him that he was chosen to perform the task. So the "chosenness" was not imparting on him laurels and status, but rather the obligation to further god's purpose.

And of course, moses, like all other biblical people of power, are presented as flawed individuals who are not perfect examples (unlike Islam's virtual deification of Mohammed). Moses was denied entry into Israel even after all the great stuff he did, and David was called out for having someone killed to marry his wife (and ultimately "punished" by not being allowed to build the temple). So the whole line of thinking on chosenness is that the people have been provided an opportunity to learn about god and his relationship with people, but the cost is the iobligation to follow the rules and bear the yoke of the commandments.

With respect to being insular, Judaism closed off as a response to domination by Christians and later Muslims, as in either lands, proselytising was prohibitted and would be responded to with mass brutal violence against the entire Jewish community. Having said that, the principle as it now is enshrined in, I guess you would call it doctrine, is that only those who truly and freely wish to become Jewish are converted. The general practice is for people who want to convert to be rejected by a Rabbi 3 times - rejected as in actively disuaded and turned away. It is only by repeatedly coming back and seeking to be converted that a person's true wishes are revealed. Once the person repeatedly presses they are converted in a process that takes some time and involves a fair degree of education, as again the objective is for the person to be fully educated in the decision that is being made, to ensure that it was truly and freely intended. Again, this can be contrasted with Islam, where a simple utterance, even on compulsion, is sufficient for conversion for life (and Christianity, which had a similar process for baptism, even if under compulsion). And the whole process makes sense when you understand both the history of Judaism under Christian and Muslim domination and the burden that people have been (and are) taking on themselves by becoming Jews. Cause as you said, people tend to not like us so much, which has the regular habit of breaking down into widespread brutal violence against us and our children.

As for why people felt threatened, there are scores of volumes on this, but the easiest answer is that Christianity felt threatened because the Christian cult eminated from Judaism and the Jews who remained Jews represented the greatest challenge to the authenticity of the new religion by rejecting its attempts to tie itself to Jewish teachings and traditions. As for Islam, well the Jews were in the way of Mohammed's conquests.

Also would suggest you have learned very, very little about Jews, but it's never a bad time to start.
 
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maiseycat said:
What the.... Whatever. I've never encountered so many rude, attacking people as I have on this site. How you can get that from what I said is amazing. I was asking to LEARN more, admitting I didn't know much at all about Judaism, but these are things I picked up from religious research, and from Jewish people I've known. To say that people are threatened by your religion because it is so exclusive is not an insult in the least. Maybe people are curious about your religion, and how Jews interact with other groups in the ME, but they encounter people like you who are truly bigoted. I have to endure religious bigotry all the time, but I don't use it as an excuse to shell myself up and attack people who are genuinely curious and want to learn. I've tried to be open to learning more about Judaism, but, see, this is the typical response I get.

Your faith really needs to be a lot more welcoming and evangelical if it wants to thrive. I have Jewish ancestry on my mother's side. My grandfather's family is Jewish. I have attempted to learn more about my family tree and about my Jewish roots, but, in attempts to, I keep encountering pure nastiness from Jews who tell me I'm not a Jew and I can acknowledge my Jewish roots, but no more. I hesitate to research further because maybe I've just run into the wrong people, but my experiences with Jews lead me to believe the stereotypes are well-founded and being a part of this group in any fashion is something I'd rather keep in the archives.
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I would suspect that the folks you are talking to are not the right folks. While I am totally non-regligious, I did go to hebrew school and very much feel a part of the community. I would suggest if you do want to learn more and connect on that front that you either can (1) go chat with someone at a reform shul, as they are much less stickly on the "who is a true jew" nonsense or (2) go chat with one of the various Chabbad outreach folks - they seem to be everywhere. while they may seem less approachable as they generally dress and act the part of the very religious, their mission, I gather is bringing Jews back into the faith and reconnecting folks with their Judaism, and they are a very cheerful bunch. They are not really my thing, but they are not bad people.

As for learning online, the best way to learn anything is just to present ignorance and just ensure that inquiries are not phrased in a way that gets people's backs up right away (e.g., the I know something is wrong with Jews because people hate them line of reasoning). Open ended questions firast, then steer (delicately) towards the topics you want to dig deeper into. Always the best way, regardless of topic (works for IT issues on tekky websites just as well as for queries into religious beliefs).
 
Ben K. said:
That's the thing. History hardly shows that peoples with a shared ancestry usually get on. I mean, just look at the history of Europe.
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Forget that, look at the ancestry within your (or anyone else's) immediate family. Those histories generally are not so greast either...
 
ido_ said:
You are deflecting from the topic again, if you wanna debate on Jewish affinity to Palestine open a new thread and I'll be more than happy to react to this BS
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i make a direct & clear response to your comment.
 
ido_ said:
Actually I never understood the point of this claims, Jews and Arabs share some genes and share a distant ancestral mom and dad (both holly books of our people confirm that), fine, so what? Does it solve the conflict we have today? Does it help solving the conflict? Does one supposes Palestinians and Jews will hold hands and sing kumbaya all of the sudden if a scientific research will come up with decisive evidence to this ?

If anything it just proves that Jews are originated in the Middle East and not Europe making our affinity to this land stronger.
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Jews and Arabs is not the same as Jews and Palestinians. Understanding that both sides are split off from the same people who ancestral claim is being used as the basis for the conflict helpful. Having it framed as an intramural conflict of the descendants of the Hebrews puts the dispute in a totally different context.
 
Demon of Light said:
Jews and Arabs is not the same as Jews and Palestinians. Understanding that both sides are split off from the same people who ancestral claim is being used as the basis for the conflict helpful. Having it framed as an intramural conflict of the descendants of the Hebrews puts the dispute in a totally different context.
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True. Palestinians split from Arabs in the mid 70s, though we could be generous and put that split way back in the 1940s.
 
Demon of Light said:
Jews and Arabs is not the same as Jews and Palestinians. Understanding that both sides are split off from the same people who ancestral claim is being used as the basis for the conflict helpful. Having it framed as an intramural conflict of the descendants of the Hebrews puts the dispute in a totally different context.
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Palestinians identify themselves as Arabs and as far as I know they are members in the Arab league of nations.
True there is also a community of Samaritans among them and at the old city of Jerusalem there are a few Armenians and Greeks but those are very irrelevant percentages of the total population
 
ido_ said:
Palestinians identify themselves as Arabs and as far as I know they are members in the Arab league of nations.
True there is also a community of Samaritans among them and at the old city of Jerusalem there are a few Armenians and Greeks but those are very irrelevant percentages of the total population
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Constantly saying "they're Arabs" as though that means they are foreign to the territory is exactly why these kinds of scientific studies are important. You can deny their heritage so long as there is no evidence against you and proving with DNA that the Palestinians are more closely related to the ancient Jewish inhabitants of the territory where they live than the Arabs from the peninsula prevents you from making that denial credible. Palestinians adopted Arab culture in the same way North African peoples adopted Arab culture. Yet, genetic studies demonstrate that the adoption of Arab culture did not seriously impact their genetic makeup.
 
Demon of Light said:
Constantly saying "they're Arabs" as though that means they are foreign to the territory is exactly why these kinds of scientific studies are important. You can deny their heritage so long as there is no evidence against you and proving with DNA that the Palestinians are more closely related to the ancient Jewish inhabitants of the territory where they live than the Arabs from the peninsula prevents you from making that denial credible. Palestinians adopted Arab culture in the same way North African peoples adopted Arab culture. Yet, genetic studies demonstrate that the adoption of Arab culture did not seriously impact their genetic makeup.
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How is saying that they are Arabs means that they are foreign to the territory ??? Why wouldn't I call them Arabs if they identify themselves as such ? Jews never identified themselves as Arabs not even what you like to call "Arab Jews"
 
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