All we are saying.....

[Gordy327]

I know Gordy, you don't value life, you've made that abundantly clear

Specify precisely where I said that! Otherwise, you've just making assumption and deflecting from the question, what is the "value" of life?

For the rest of us, human life means a great deal

How nice. What's your point? It's not your life, so it's not your concern.

women in states where they can have their unborn's killed ?

That's by their own choice and consent. It's not your unborn/body, so none of your business or concern.

I like that - can we make that a law and hold men and woman accountable equally ?

There already are such laws.

cow and trees are not humans - lets not equate them to the same thing but since you are its highly illegal to kill a bald eagle egg ..... we put more value on a bird than a human life

incredible isn't it ?

Bald eagles are endangered. Humans are not.

people will cry and fret if you talk about killing a stray pregnant dog - how awful huh? or killing a wild mustang and eating it - just horrible. Kill baby seals for food? brutal. Kill an unborn baby ? celebrated as a choice

what a world we live in huh ?

Meanwhile you cry and fret over a clump of cells you have absolutely nothing to do with much less even know exists.

if I have to define value of life for you , then that's also on you for not having value on human life

Wrong! Only you bring up "value." So define or quantify this so called "value!" Value is a subjective determination anyway.

and yes, its my business and decisions/concerns .... to me its part of being a man

Sanctimonious nonsense! One's personal decisions are no more your concern or business than your decisions are to anyone else! You are responsible for your own body and choices, no one else's!

I've tried many times to talk value of life to you and you know that - and in the end it fails. You simply don't get it and that's how it is.

You have yet to explain/quantify this value. You simply can't explain it and are just arguing from pure emotion.

 

[weaver2]

Reading comprehension is not good with some people, if that is what you took away from what I said it just can't be helped.

You said:
"I don't think any woman ever was happy she felt she had to have an abortion. Sure in some circumstances they may have been happy they had access to choice, but that didn't lessen the burden of that choice. We need to love women, not judge them because they felt they were forced to make a hard choice. I can't even imagine the burdens of these choices for a woman, all I can do is support and love them no matter what choice they make. "
"Thank you sir, I post a lot, and sometimes I'm not proud of things I say, but I think there are a few gems in this one."



I understand you clearly: men should "love" women even if they have made the wrong choice, because, women are too childish and confused to know that giving birth is the right choice for them. Furthermore, my thoughts are insightful and I am right.

 

[stealthycat]

Only when we have laws that allow women to have things removed from men's bodies without their consent.

So again, name some cases where it's not? At least for minors.

so you don't want responsibility for people and the human lives they are responsible for

see, when a woman chooses sex, when a man chooses sex, they full well know a baby can come from it. When a normal pregnancy begins, there is a little unborn human life there (if there wasn't there wouldn't be a pregnancy)

you don't think a woman should be responsible for that life, that she should be able to have it killed at her whim which is NOT being responsible for human life, its killing it, its irresponsible for the actions she chose

 

[weaver2]

so you don't want responsibility for people and the human lives they are responsible for

see, when a woman chooses sex, when a man chooses sex, they full well know a baby can come from it. When a normal pregnancy begins, there is a little unborn human life there (if there wasn't there wouldn't be a pregnancy)

you don't think a woman should be responsible for that life, that she should be able to have it killed at her whim which is NOT being responsible for human life, its killing it, its irresponsible for the actions she chose

And yet I don't see anything about how the male ought to be responsible.

 

[Lursa]

so you don't want responsibility for people and the human lives they are responsible for

see, when a woman chooses sex, when a man chooses sex, they full well know a baby can come from it. When a normal pregnancy begins, there is a little unborn human life there (if there wasn't there wouldn't be a pregnancy)

you don't think a woman should be responsible for that life, that she should be able to have it killed at her whim which is NOT being responsible for human life, its killing it, its irresponsible for the actions she chose

Where's my answer to this: Name some cases where it's not? At least for minors.?

I responded directly to your post, please show the same courtesy before moving the goal posts.

 

[stealthycat]

And yet I don't see anything about how the male ought to be responsible.

financially from conception until 18 years old if I had it my way, all of it in every way

right now its just from birth on .... I think that's flawed and need redone

 

[stealthycat]

Where's my answer to this: Name some cases where it's not? At least for minors.?

I responded directly to your post, please show the same courtesy before moving the goal posts.

I answered your question - mothers having their unborns killed

 

[Bullseye]

I agree family planning is consecutive and positive, while abortion is sadly just sometimes necessary.

And I agree we all own our bodies, so it is not the place of government to tell anyone, including women, what they can and can't do with their own bodies. It's a choice between a woman and her doctors and we need government to butt the F out.

It does sadden me when a woman feels the need to make that choice, but we don't need to outlaw everything that makes us sad. We need to handle it as a community with peace, love, and understanding, not some old men in a high castle laying down edicts.

I can't dispute that it is sometimes necessary. Emphasis on "sometimes".

 

[Lursa]

I answered your question - mothers having their unborns killed

And I refuted that...so...your answer is there are none? Great, then why are you complaining about equality?

 

[weaver2]

financially from conception until 18 years old if I had it my way, all of it in every way

right now its just from birth on .... I think that's flawed and need redone

You do realize your post only talks about women's responsibility.

 

[Chomsky]

I guess, if you consider everything in a woman's life a 'convenience,' like her life, her health, her responsibilities to generating an income and caring for dependents, her own self-determination, her obligations and commitments to others, etc, all of which can be jeopardized by a difficult pregnancy and certainly, unaffordable/unwanted motherhood.

But if you consider everything in women's lives...educations, professions, relationships, contributions, etc as "conveniences," that's up to you.

I value everything in my life more, but that's just me. I would also always teach my kids that their commitments and responsibilities and obligations to others, that their educations, etc are more than "conveniences".

I do not believe there's a hard & fast rule that states pregnancy excludes one from education, profession, relationship, or "contributions" - whatever this last may be? In fact, I can point to a great many women I personally know who had successful pregnancies that have done many combinations of the items you list - if not all of them!

I'm not saying abortion doesn't have it's place in many circumstances. It obviously does.

But I am saying I personally do not believe in it as a form of simple on-demand birth-control, at least for me & mine.

But even with that being said, these my personal thoughts concerning myself & my family. I fully accept what society deems, and do not believe in impressing my personal ethics upon others. It just doesn't work for me. If it works for you, go for it.

 

[Lursa]

I do not believe there's a hard & fast rule that states pregnancy excludes one from education, profession, relationship, or "contributions" - whatever this last may be? In fact, I can point to a great many women I personally know who had successful pregnancies that have done many combinations of the items you list - if not all of them!

I wrote "can be jeopardized by..." it cant be predicted.

I'm not saying abortion doesn't have it's place in many circumstances. It obviously does.

But I am saying I personally do not believe in it as a form of simple on-demand birth-control, at least for me & mine.

IMO it's very disrespectful to assume women have abortions out of anything but need. They are costly and painful.

YOu, as anyone, are welcome to believe what you want. It's the voting to deny women consent to a safer medical procedure that is morally reprehensible to me....and helpful to no one. Not the woman, society, and often not even the kid.

"Every abortion is the ending of a potential child that was not wanted and could not be supported either emotionally, psychologically or financially."​

New info:
Surprising no one who has ever been pregnant—scientists have found that growing a human from scratch makes your body “older.” A new study suggests that a single pregnancy can add between two to 14 months to your biological age—and multiple pregnancies can have a cumulative effect. Certain life events and stressors seem to cause “jumps” in epigenetic age as the body redirects energy and resources toward coping with these challenges. National Geographic

But even with that being said, these my personal thoughts concerning myself & my family. I fully accept what society deems, and do not believe in impressing my personal ethics upon others. It just doesn't work for me. If it works for you, go for it.

Disrespecting women, reducing our lives to strings of 'conveniences', and not valuing our Constitutional rights doesnt work for me. I was just surprised to read that from you.

 

[Chomsky]

I wrote "can be jeopardized by..." it cant be predicted.



IMO it's very disrespectful to assume women have abortions out of anything but need. They are costly and painful.

Who claimed less?

What we may disagree upon - somewhat - is the degree of need.

But regardless, I'm not standing in the way of what is lawful

YOu, as anyone, are welcome to believe what you want. It's the voting to deny women consent to a safer medical procedure that is morally reprehensible to me....and helpful to no one. Not the woman, society, and often not even the kid.

"Every abortion is the ending of a potential child that was not wanted and could not be supported either emotionally, psychologically or financially."​

New info:
Surprising no one who has ever been pregnant—

scientists have found that growing a human from scratch makes your body “older.” A new study suggests that a single pregnancy can add between two to 14 months to your biological age—and multiple pregnancies can have a cumulative effect.

Certain life events and stressors seem to cause “jumps” in epigenetic age as the body redirects energy and resources toward coping with these challenges. National Geographic

Quite honestly, in terms of aborting one's child, I find the bolded to be feint reason to do it. Is it allowed? 'Yes'. Is it good reason? I personally wouldn't find it so. Not unless there were complications or serious concern. That's between the women & her Doc.

Disrespecting women, reducing our lives to strings of 'conveniences', and not valuing our Constitutional rights doesnt work for me. I was just surprised to read that from you.

"Convenience" may not bethe best choice of terms, but in some - if not many - instances I suspect it isn't too far off.

You're mischaracterizing & gaslighting my position. I am not proposing limiting your Constitutional Rights. I am saying abortion is not a solution that would work for me & mine as a form of simple on-demand birth-control. If it works for others, and is lawful, so be it.

 

[weaver2]

"Convenience" may not be the best choice of terms, but in some - if not many - instances I suspect it isn't too far off.

You're mischaracterizing & gaslighting my position. I am not proposing limiting your Constitutional Rights. I am saying abortion is not a solution that would work for me & mine as a form of simple on-demand birth-control. If it works for others, and is lawful, so be it.

".... so be it" doesn't erase the fact that you've indicated that women are not to be trusted and you've made the decisions for the women in your family.

 

[Lovebug]

I do not believe there's a hard & fast rule that states pregnancy excludes one from education, profession, relationship, or "contributions" - whatever this last may be? In fact, I can point to a great many women I personally know who had successful pregnancies that have done many combinations of the items you list - if not all of them!

Did these women choose to carry out the pregnancy on their own free will? If so, good on them. They made the choice, not someone who ruled over their bodies.

I'm not saying abortion doesn't have it's place in many circumstances. It obviously does.

Indeed, it should be the woman's choice. Period.

But I am saying I personally do not believe in it as a form of simple on-demand birth-control, at least for me & mine.

Agreed, but still, it is the woman who must be allowed to make that choice. We should not legislate moral decisions.

But even with that being said, these my personal thoughts concerning myself & my family. I fully accept what society deems, and do not believe in impressing my personal ethics upon others. It just doesn't work for me. If it works for you, go for it.

We agree on that as well.
I have said so many times before, I would try my utmost best to convince a friend to reconsider, but I would also stand by her and help her through the situation, whatever she may decide.

Now let me say this to all the men out there who think they have a right to dictate what a woman should, or should not, do with her body. Consider yourself experiencing all the changes to her body a woman experiences during a pregnancy and apply that to yourself. Then imagine giving birth and having the responsibility for a new life thrust upon you.
The good Lord gave us the ability to choose right from wrong. Who are we to say otherwise?

 

[Lovebug]

".... so be it" doesn't erase the fact that you've indicated that women are not to be trusted and you've made the decisions for the women in your family.

He did?

 

[Chomsky]

".... so be it" doesn't erase the fact that you've indicated that women are not to be trusted and you've made the decisions for the women in your family.

Wrong.

 

[weaver2]

He did?

""Convenience" may not be the best choice of terms, but in some - if not many - instances I suspect it isn't too far off."
Using the word convenience in conjunction with abortion has come to mean frivolous women killing off "little unborn innocent babies"for no reason other than preserving their shape, their partying, their social life, hooking up opportunities et al. ( choose one or all)

" I am saying abortion is not a solution that would work for me & mine"
mine?

One has a choice of words and those words have meanings.

 

[Lovebug]

""Convenience" may not be the best choice of terms, but in some - if not many - instances I suspect it isn't too far off."
Using the word convenience in conjunction with abortion has come to mean frivolous women killing off "little unborn innocent babies"for no reason other than preserving their shape, their partying, their social life, hooking up opportunities et al. ( choose one or all)

" I am saying abortion is not a solution that would work for me & mine"
mine?

One has a choice of words and those words have meanings.

I give @Chomsky the benefit of the doubt. His family might be in agreement.

 

[weaver2]

Wrong.

Then why use the words that indicate exactly that?

Why not eschew the use of 'convenience' entirely since it has become a favorite accusation of the anti-abortion advocates who have used it to evoke the image of female untrustworthiness in all sexual and reproductive behavior. Why not quote Guttmacher studies on who aborts and why they abort.

Why not say "my wife (or daughter or niece) and I have discussed abortion and have come to the decision that if there is an unplanned pregnancy abortion is not a choice."

The word choices you make convey how you think.

 

[weaver2]

I give @Chomsky the benefit of the doubt. His family might be in agreement.

I would have also if he hadn't reiterated the same sentiments more than once in defending his position.

 

[Chomsky]

Did these women choose to carry out the pregnancy on their own free will? If so, good on them. They made the choice, not someone who ruled over their bodies.

Indeed, it should be the woman's choice. Period.

Agreed, but still, it is the woman who must be allowed to make that choice. We should not legislate moral decisions.

In my city & my circles, there's a lot of women that are educated working professionals, who have children & relationships (often husbands).

To believe one must sacrifice their future to have children, strikes me as pretty crazy.

We agree on that as well.
I have said so many times before, I would try my utmost best to convince a friend to reconsider, but I would also stand by her and help her through the situation, whatever she may decide.

Exactly.

But I will say if I was asked to participate in a purely elective contraceptual abortion, I don't think I could do it.

I could offer love & support before & after, but I wouldn't want to participate in the act.

Now let me say this to all the men out there who think they have a right to dictate what a woman should, or should not, do with her body. Consider yourself experiencing all the changes to her body a woman experiences during a pregnancy and apply that to yourself. Then imagine giving birth and having the responsibility for a new life thrust upon you.

The good Lord gave us the ability to choose right from wrong. Who are we to say otherwise?

Well said, and I agree.

 

[Chomsky]

Then why use the words that indicate exactly that?

Again, that bolded below is an incorrect characterization - something I never said.

".... so be it" doesn't erase the fact that you've indicated that women are not to be trusted and you've made the decisions for the women in your family.

--

Why not eschew the use of 'convenience' entirely since it has become a favorite accusation of the anti-abortion advocates who have used it to evoke the image of female untrustworthiness in all sexual and reproductive behavior. Why not quote Guttmacher studies on who aborts and why they abort.

I don't hang in the abortion sub-forum, nor do I discuss the topic much around here or in real-life, so I'm not aware of the bolded. My words were entirely mine.

And again, I never stated "women cannot be trusted" in their reproductive choices. That's your derivation.

Why not say "my wife (or daughter or niece) and I have discussed abortion and have come to the decision that if there is an unplanned pregnancy abortion is not a choice."

The word choices you make convey how you think.

Why read more into my word choices, than I write? I'm not responsible for your interpretations. In fact, you seem to have an axe to grind of some sort, as can be seen by your lumping me in with some other group in the text I bolded above.

I think for myself. If you're unsure of my thinking, and desire to know more, kindly ask & I'll be happy to share or clarify. I've had enough years in life to have come to know myself pretty well..

 

[Lursa]

Who claimed less?

What we may disagree upon - somewhat - is the degree of need.

But regardless, I'm not standing in the way of what is lawful





Quite honestly, in terms of aborting one's child, I find the bolded to be feint reason to do it. Is it allowed? 'Yes'. Is it good reason? I personally wouldn't find it so. Not unless there were complications or serious concern. That's between the women & her Doc.



"Convenience" may not bethe best choice of terms, but in some - if not many - instances I suspect it isn't too far off.

You're mischaracterizing & gaslighting my position. I am not proposing limiting your Constitutional Rights. I am saying abortion is not a solution that would work for me & mine as a form of simple on-demand birth-control. If it works for others, and is lawful, so be it.

Not really. You are conceding to law...which means you would also concede to laws that more closely supported your personal opinion which...I already described as IMO.

 

[Lursa]

"Convenience" may not bethe best choice of terms, but in some - if not many - instances I suspect it isn't too far off.

Again, that bolded below is an incorrect characterization - something I never said.

That's how I interpreted it as well.