3-year-old raped by uncle, officials say

[Patrickt]

I live in Oaxaca, Mexico, which is not one of the most advanced states in the country. I know of three people put in prison for being pedophiles. One had demonstrations demanding his release because he was a retired U.N. worker and the U.N. doesn't seem to have a problem with pedophilia. Their jail sentences are comparable to the sentences for homicide. One got forty years. The other two I don't know.

These three men are Americans. Golly, does that mean there is something about the U.S. that creates pedophiles? Is it something in the culture of the U.S. that causes this or is it a flaw in the legal system? It's true we've had congressmen having sex with young pages with no sanctions.

Taking a case and trying to say it's representative without any supporting evidence is ridiculous.

Did you know there are bums in the U.S. who rent kids to beg? They get more money with an urchin so the parent loans out the kid in exchange for a cut of the money. Did you know there are families on welfare who are delighted when their young daughters get pregnant and move into the welfare system?

 

[SgtRock]

I live in Oaxaca, Mexico, which is not one of the most advanced states in the country. I know of three people put in prison for being pedophiles. One had demonstrations demanding his release because he was a retired U.N. worker and the U.N. doesn't seem to have a problem with pedophilia. Their jail sentences are comparable to the sentences for homicide. One got forty years. The other two I don't know.

These three men are Americans. Golly, does that mean there is something about the U.S. that creates pedophiles? Is it something in the culture of the U.S. that causes this or is it a flaw in the legal system? It's true we've had congressmen having sex with young pages with no sanctions.

Taking a case and trying to say it's representative without any supporting evidence is ridiculous.

Did you know there are bums in the U.S. who rent kids to beg? They get more money with an urchin so the parent loans out the kid in exchange for a cut of the money. Did you know there are families on welfare who are delighted when their young daughters get pregnant and move into the welfare system?

Patrickt, what is rapto and why are there so many stories about it on the internet? Please enlighten us.

 

[americanwoman]

Patrickt, what is rapto and why are there so many stories about it on the internet? Please enlighten us.

Sgt, what is nambla and why are there so many stories about it on the internet? It must be part of the North American Culture. Please enlighten us.

 

[jfuh]

Patrickt, what is rapto and why are there so many stories about it on the internet? Please enlighten us.

You're using the quantity of stories on the INTERNET as a argumentative point?
Oh let's think about it a second here, maybe, just maybe, because there are fracking piss arse racist xenophobic frackers with a personal agenda to push. Maybe that's why?

 

[jallman]

Sgt, what is nambla and why are there so many stories about it on the internet? It must be part of the North American Culture. Please enlighten us.

I am so glad I read further down or we would have had a duplicate post by two different people. LOL

 

[Patrickt]

I am on the internet daily and haven't seen a reference to "rapto" and rarely see a reference to "Nambla". I did Google "rapto" and learned it's a movie. I haven't seen it.

My question still stands. Are the three gringos arrested here representative of the U.S. culture?

 

[Thelost1]

Cap'n Courtesy may have "said everything you want to say", but Cap'n Courtesy knows that you are misguided and incorrect (albeit innocent of ill intent), and that rape is a crime of violence, and not about sex at all.
He's a friggin' psychologist; let's hope he knows that.

Well yes, I am saying that Cap'n Courtesy is correct (and therefore you were as well) about rape being a

crime of violence, and not about sex at all.

Yeah, that.

I had just always heard that it was a sex crime.

 

[Panache]

you are misguided and incorrect (albeit innocent of ill intent), and that rape is a crime of violence, and not about sex at all.

An intruiging generalization.

So when a HS senior (who is 18) has consensual sex with his HS Junior GF (who is 17) in a state where the age of consent is 18, that is a case of statutory violence?

Or how about when some loser slips a girl some date rape drug and has sex with her (non-violently) while she is passed out because he is too lame to get laid any other way?

Seems to me that it would be more accurate to say that rape isn't always about sex.

 

[1069]

So when a HS senior (who is 18) has consensual sex with his HS Junior GF (who is 17) in a state where the age of consent is 18, that is a case of statutory violence?

No, it's a case of consensual sex.
Perhaps you're unfamiliar with my stance on so-called "statutory" crime.
Perhaps you are unaware that I was married and had two children by the time I was seventeen?
I am fiercely opposed to teenagers who have consensual sex being labeled sex criminals, especially since the laws are arbitrary, varying from state to state and even county to county.

 

[talloulou]

OK, folks, I and a few other posters gave it a try...to turn this thread into a reasonable discussion of what the issue here is; as the title states, a 3-year old raped by her uncle, and the concerns the article has around parents who allowed this child to interact with this uncle who had been accused of molesting others. Apparently, this has been an unsuccessful endeavor, as, once again, an issue has been demeaned by the ancillary illegal immigration issue. If the topic were about poor enforcement of rape crimes in Mexico, I'd assume the thread would be titled that way. It is not. I will now bow out of my 'poster' role, and move into my 'mod' role.

Moderator's Warning:

Stay on topic folks, paying attention to the thread title. This thread could become Basement fodder real quick.

Well to be fair it is an immigration thread.

Also while I think many sexual assualts are about much more than sex to say that rape is not about sex at all as 1069 did using your credentials as back up is faulty.

 

[disneydude]

This has to be the worst attempt by the OP to link a horrible crime to anything to do with "illegal immigration". It IS a horrific crime, however, I actually laughed (an uncomfortable one) when I read the original thread. It is really a stretch to take something like this and then try to spin it into an immigration debate....it actually felt to me like this 3 year old was getting "raped" again....politically.

The fact is....unfortunately things like this occur all too often. I work in the criminal courts in Los Angeles and we see at dozens of cases like this every year. These case have to do with sexual molestation not immigration and it really feels "dirty" when people try to continue to abuse this victim to advance their political issue du jour.

 

[Panache]

No, it's a case of consensual sex.
Perhaps you're unfamiliar with my stance on so-called "statutory" crime.
Perhaps you are unaware that I was married and had two children by the time I was seventeen?
I am fiercely opposed to teenagers who have consensual sex being labeled sex criminals, especially since the laws are arbitrary, varying from state to state and even county to county.

Well, you can be opposed to the law all you want. I am not particularly fond of the law myself.

It is still classified as rape though, and is still a crime.

My point is that it is not a violent crime.

What about scenario number two with the date rape drug guy who is just trying to lose his virginity so he can feel like a "real man"? Are you saying that doesn't happen? Or that it is still a crime about violence rather than sex?

 

[1069]

Well, you can be opposed to the law all you want. I am not particularly fond of the law myself.

It is still classified as rape though, and is still a crime.

My point is that it is not a violent crime.

Exactly.
And that is from whence confusion like yours and Tallou's stems.

In this manner- by calling consensual sex "rape" under some circumstances- our society minimizes the heinous crime of rape, and confuses otherwise well-meaning people into equating rape with sex, when in fact there is no correlation.

 

[talloulou]

Exactly.
And that is from whence confusion like yours and Tallou's stems.

In this manner- by calling consensual sex "rape" under some circumstances- our society minimizes the heinous crime of rape, and confuses otherwise well-meaning people into equating rape with sex, when in fact there is no correlation.

To say rape isn't all about sex is understandable. But to argue there is no correlation between rape and sex is frankly absurd.

 

[talloulou]

This has to be the worst attempt by the OP to link a horrible crime to anything to do with "illegal immigration". It IS a horrific crime, however, I actually laughed (an uncomfortable one) when I read the original thread. It is really a stretch to take something like this and then try to spin it into an immigration debate....it actually felt to me like this 3 year old was getting "raped" again....politically.

The fact is....unfortunately things like this occur all too often. I work in the criminal courts in Los Angeles and we see at dozens of cases like this every year. These case have to do with sexual molestation not immigration and it really feels "dirty" when people try to continue to abuse this victim to advance their political issue du jour.

I agree to a certain point. It does seem fashionable right now to highlight stories where an illegal has been convicted of a crime. This makes it seems as if part of the problem with illegals is that they're criminals which in most cases isn't true.

However on the flip side it is disturbing when illegals are convicted for and serve time for violent crimes and then are set free from jail without ever being deported. That is a problem. That is an immigration problem. No illegal aliens should ever be let out of jail to roam our streets. They should be deported as soon as their sentence is complete. I don't necessarily want all the illegals in our country rounded up and sent back to wherever they came from. However ignoring the fact that a criminal is an illegal alien and just letting him slip through the system without being deported is just sloppy and there's no excuse for that. None whatsoever.

 

[disneydude]

I agree to a certain point. It does seem fashionable right now to highlight stories where an illegal has been convicted of a crime. This makes it seems as if part of the problem with illegals is that they're criminals which in most cases isn't true.

However on the flip side it is disturbing when illegals are convicted for and serve time for violent crimes and then are set free from jail without ever being deported. That is a problem. That is an immigration problem. No illegal aliens should ever be let out of jail to roam our streets. They should be deported as soon as their sentence is complete. I don't necessarily want all the illegals in our country rounded up and sent back to wherever they came from. However ignoring the fact that a criminal is an illegal alien and just letting him slip through the system without being deported is just sloppy and there's no excuse for that. None whatsoever.

I can't speak for the rest of the Country...however, here in LA INS is extremely vigilant in deporting undocumented people who are arrested. An immigration hold is slapped on them during the intake procedure and they cannot be released until these are taken to the immigration board.
My office has a policy whereby we have all be required to receive immigration education in order to properly advise individuals regarding immigration consequences.

 

[jallman]

An intruiging generalization.

So when a HS senior (who is 18) has consensual sex with his HS Junior GF (who is 17) in a state where the age of consent is 18, that is a case of statutory violence?

Or how about when some loser slips a girl some date rape drug and has sex with her (non-violently) while she is passed out because he is too lame to get laid any other way?

Seems to me that it would be more accurate to say that rape isn't always about sex.

You are splitting hairs in the most obtuse of ways on the first "example". On the second, you are still talking about power and invasion of another person, i.e. violence. Speak to any psychologist and they will say that rape is not about sex. It is about power and violence.

 

[talloulou]

You are splitting hairs in the most obtuse of ways on the first "example". On the second, you are still talking about power and invasion of another person, i.e. violence. Speak to any psychologist and they will say that rape is not about sex. It is about power and violence.

Well rape is one of those P.C. issues where there are things that are commonly said because they are considered the "correct" thing to say but unfortunately I think some of the things commonly said about rape including, "Rape is not about sex," have done more damage than good.

Obviously a man who goes out looking for a stranger to assualt is operating on a different level than the most common form of rape seen. But the rape victims who are assualted in that way are not the most common form of rape. The most common form happens to teens and college girls and it happens most commonly at parties where everyone, including the aggressor and the victim, are drunk and doing drugs. Many women are confused and unsure if they've been raped or not. It's very common for a women to not know what happened at all because she was so intoxicated. Every man should be taught not to have sex with a woman he doesn't know well when she's too drunk or drugged up to realistically consent. But these rapes are the most common form to occur.

When you take college kids and high school kids, ect and you think realistically about "sex" there is a coercing factor and the lines do blur. Not every person who tries to get another person to have sex with them is "raping." And unfortunately for young people especially it's very common for the women to sort of be talked into sex. So while men should be taught to take any sign of "no" as no it happens far to often that with a little more petting, a little more seducing, ect that no can turn to yes. I myself have thought frequently I wasn't in the mood only to be seduced into the mood by my very persistent husband. So the lines blur and when you add alcohol, drugs, and youth into the mix it's unfortunately all too common to be sitting accross from a young woman who thinks she might have been raped but she isn't all together sure what the hell happened. Generally she was too intoxicated to remember and so it becomes a real problem because obviously she was too intoxicated to consent to anything but is the man involved a violent sexual offender? Maybe but not necessarily and most times he was probably heavily intoxicated too. In his mind he may have successfully talked her into sex.

These are the most common types of rape and they're radically different from the guy who grabs a girl while she's out jogging in my mind anyway. And while I do agree the guy should be held responsible for having sex with a woman too intoxicated to consent the girl should be held responsible for putting herself in that position in the first place. Unfortunately no one wants to say that. No one wants to put any responsibility on the woman at all and so the result is that young women aren't learning how to keep themselves out of comprimising positions. God forbid you suggest that a woman shouldn't go out barely wearing anything at all and get all drunk with a bunch of other drunk people she doesn't know very well. Everyone gets pissed when you say crap like that but, from all I've seen, saying $hit like that might help women avoid situations like that.

Because ultimately I believe those situations, the most common form of rape, are all about sex.

 

[1069]

God forbid you suggest that a woman shouldn't go out barely wearing anything at all and get all drunk with a bunch of other drunk people she doesn't know very well.

Yes, God forbid you should suggest that.
Because that would make it sound as if you were holding a rape victim responsible for the actions of her assailants, and anyone who would do a thing like that is the most depraved sort of misogynist imaginable, and deserves to be impaled on a spike.

It further suggests that abstinence from alcohol, avoidance of those who are imbibing alcohol, or shrouding oneself in layers of heavy clothing might protect one from falling victim to rape, which is not the case and promotes a dangerous sense of false security.

 

[talloulou]

Yes, God forbid you should suggest that.
Because that would make it sound as if you were holding a rape victim responsible for the actions of her assailants, and anyone who would do a thing like that is the most depraved sort of misogynist imaginable, and deserves to be impaled on a spike.

It further suggests that abstinence from alcohol, avoidance of those who are imbibing alcohol, or shrouding oneself in layers of heavy clothing might protect one from falling victim to rape, which is not the case and promotes a dangerous sense of false security.

See? I'm just saying there's a difference between the most common form of rape and a guy who breaks into your house or graps you while you're jogging. The assailants are different and one the girl can't do much about while the other a girl can do alot to prevent. The one guy probably is into the violence of the rape the other guy is more than likely trying to get laid and his rape is about sex.

Im not saying the "rape" is her fault. I'm saying it may have been avoidable had she been more careful. But no one is interested in protecting these young women and telling them the truth.

 

[1069]

It's not for you to judge whether a rape victim's wardrobe, behavior, and demeanor was puritanical and decorous enough that she didn't deserve to be assaulted.
No matter who you are, no matter what you look like, no matter where you go or what you do, you can get raped.
And if you get raped- no matter what you wore, where you went, etc- there will be those who will say it was your fault, you asked for it, you deserved it.
There will always be those who will find a rape victim's appearance and actions to be somehow morally suspect and therefore find her responsible for her own victimization.
This is human nature; women especially are prone to this type of judgementalism. That's why prosecutors don't want them on the jury during rape trials, and conversely why defense attorneys love them. They will find the victim responsible somehow.
The reason is simple and understandable, although no less ugly and shameful for that:
It is that women don't want to acknowledge their own vulnerability to rape. It makes it too frightening to navigate in this world. So they convince themselves somehow that there are magical rules to ensure their safety: wearing a certain type of clothing, not being outdoors after a certain time, etc.
They convince themselves that if they follow 'the rules", they will be safe from rape.
As pitiful as this self-delusion is, it's understandable.
The only really bad thing about it is that in order to maintain this illusion of safety, they have to convince themselves that rape victims were raped because they forgot or deliberately flouted "the rules". Ergo, it is their own fault.

It's all bullshite, it's pitiful bullshite, it's selfish and wrong.
Your right to maintain some kind of self-delusion- or even the majority of women's right to maintain some sort of collective self-delusion- is not more important that the right of rape victims not to be blamed and maligned for being victims of a random violent crime.

I once read an essay by a rape victim that said, in part, "The only difference between me and somebody who gets hit by a bus is that when somebody gets hit by a bus, nobody asks them if they liked it."

 

[jallman]

Because ultimately I believe those situations, the most common form of rape, are all about sex.

I only posted the end of your response to save space, but I intend to answer, succinctly, everything you said.

When talking about rape, we are not talking about the guy or girl who made some bad decisions and inadvertantly had sex as part of that bad decision. What we are talking about is the predatorial event of someone taking away a person's power to make the decision to have sex rather by force or subterfuge or chemical. It is the predator who preys on a child incapable of making that decision, the insecure frat boy who intentionally gets a girl drunk to have his way with her while she is impaired, it is the slimy circuit boy who spikes a guy's drink to knock him out, and it is the aggressive sicko who breaks into women's houses to forcefully abuse them.

Each and every time, the sex takes a back seat to the power issues and the violence and violation of having the most intimate of spaces (emotional and physical) invaded by someone who was not invited.

 

[1069]

See? I'm just saying there's a difference between the most common form of rape and a guy who breaks into your house or graps you while you're jogging. The assailants are different and one the girl can't do much about while the other a girl can do alot to prevent. The one guy probably is into the violence of the rape the other guy is more than likely trying to get laid and his rape is about sex.

There are not "two different kinds" of rape, one that happens when "a guy who breaks into your house or graps you while you're jogging", and then another, more common kind where the victim is responsible.

There is only one kind of rape, and it's not about sex, which is, by definition, consensual.

 

[talloulou]

I think you're taking what I'm saying all the wrong way. Let me try to communicate more effectively.

First off I would never tell anyone that getting raped was their fault. Never. Ever. However, I do think there are ways that women can make themselves safer. I'm not saying they won't get raped if they do these things or that they are at fault for not doing them I'm just saying knowing, as I do, that most rapes occur at teenage and college parties where all involved are heavily intoxicated and guys do look at how a woman is dressed and subconsciously think she might be more looking for sex than she really in fact is there are things women should know to be "safer"! These might be taboo things to say but they are true none the less.

I'm not saying these things to place blame on anyone who is raped. I'm just saying that "date rape" is in fact more avoidable than the less common assault by a complete stranger rape.

Furthermore my point in saying these things is that the "date rape guy" is looking for sex and his rape is about sex. Women who are raped at parties and such where they were intoxicated and don't remember all that happened rarely get to hold the guy responsible legally because her case is an almost impossible one to win in a court of law. Usually that is because she has no signs of "violence" on her body. The guy who rapes like that is different from the assailant who wants to physically hurt women. The pyschopath who can't get off unless the women is beaten badly and has fear in her eyes. That assailant is different from the assailant that hooks up with the drunk woman at a party and has sex with her for the sake of having sex. The one scenario isn't about "SEX" per se. The other completely is. The one guy wants to brutalize the woman, scare her, ect. The other guy leaves no bruises, doesn't need to see pain or fear, and really is just getting off sexually.

He's still at fault but how much fault is hard to say when the woman can't relay adequately what happened to her. Unfortunately that is very very common. The rapist who drags a strange woman into an alley and asaults her usually leaving signs of struggle all over her body can't really be compared to the guy who meets a girl at a party, hooks up, and then she wakes up the next morning confused about what happened. The one assailant aims to physically hurt while the other doesn't intend to as you'd think if that's what he wanted he could easily have done so given that she was so intoxicated she can't recall anything. My main point was that in a large majority of cases the rape is about "sex."

So disconnecting the two and saying rape doesn't have anything to do with sex puts women, particularly young women, at higher risk because more likely than not if they do get raped it's not going to be the guy who violently attacks and physically overtakes them it's gonna be the loser who has no qualms about seeing a really drunk girl as an easy target because she doesn't have all her senses about her and then she's gonna be left feeling gross and wondering if she was really raped or not. You'd be surprised how many women aren't sure if they were raped or not because they genuinely can not recall what the fvck happened.

 

[jallman]

See? I'm just saying there's a difference between the most common form of rape and a guy who breaks into your house or graps you while you're jogging. The assailants are different and one the girl can't do much about while the other a girl can do alot to prevent. The one guy probably is into the violence of the rape the other guy is more than likely trying to get laid and his rape is about sex.

Im not saying the "rape" is her fault. I'm saying it may have been avoidable had she been more careful. But no one is interested in protecting these young women and telling them the truth.

While I agree that there are certain enticements for a rapist, it makes no difference when determining the rights of a young woman not to be violated.

Let me ask you this: Me being a guy, does that mean if I walk out of my house wearing a muscle shirt and going commando in running shorts and for some reason I get raped, that I "could have been more careful". Would you say that to a guy in the same situation?