Kitty Werthmann's message to us...

Goshin · Oct 7, 2015

Greg KelloggDecember 31, 2012 ·

“I am a witness to history.
“I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history.
If you remember the plot of the Sound of Mu...sic, the Von Trapp family escaped over the Alps rather than submit to the Nazis. Kitty wasn’t so lucky. Her family chose to stay in her native Austria. She was 10 years old, but bright and aware. And she was watching.
“We elected him by a landslide – 98 percent of the vote,” she recalls.
She wasn’t old enough to vote in 1938 – approaching her 11th birthday. But she remembers.
“Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.”
No so.
Hitler is welcomed to Austria
“In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our workforce was unemployed. We had 25 percent inflation and 25 percent bank loan interest rates.
Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn’t want to work; there simply weren’t any jobs.
“My mother was a Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry people – about 30 daily.’
“We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany, where Hitler had been in power since 1933.” she recalls. “We had been told that they didn’t have unemployment or crime, and they had a high standard of living.

Goshin · Oct 7, 2015

Whether you think we are in such peril in the USA, now or in the near future, her story is still very much worth a read IMO.

betuadollar · Oct 7, 2015

I've listened to her on youtube, more than once. If we continue on our present path the day will come when this country welcomes Hitler. Because, as even the Germans will tell you to this day, "This wouldn't have happened in Hitler's day."

Helix · Oct 7, 2015

Hitler tried to conquer most of Europe and all of Russia at once while exterminating entire ethnic groups and eliminating civil rights almost entirely. it isn't analogous to any likely political scenario in the US. most first world countries also have more efficient healthcare systems than we do, including Germany, and some offer college education at a much lower cost. none of those countries are analogous to Nazi Germany, either.

sorry, man.

Goshin · Oct 7, 2015

Helix said:
Hitler tried to conquer most of Europe and all of Russia at once while exterminating entire ethnic groups and eliminating civil rights almost entirely. it isn't analogous to any likely political scenario in the US. most first world countries also have more efficient healthcare systems than we do, including Germany, and some offer college education at a much lower cost. none of those countries are analogous to Nazi Germany, either.

sorry, man.

I didn't say it was.

I said her words are worth reading.

Saying "it could never happen here" is one of the worst ways of ensuring it could...

opendebate · Oct 7, 2015

Goshin said:
I didn't say it was.

I said her words are worth reading.

Saying "it could never happen here" is one of the worst ways of ensuring it could...

What exactly are you suggesting G?

Beaudreaux · Oct 7, 2015

Helix said:
Hitler tried to conquer most of Europe and all of Russia at once while exterminating entire ethnic groups and eliminating civil rights almost entirely. it isn't analogous to any likely political scenario in the US. most first world countries also have more efficient healthcare systems than we do, including Germany, and some offer college education at a much lower cost. none of those countries are analogous to Nazi Germany, either.

sorry, man.

The story is not about Germany... it's about Austria and the Austrian people's need to grasp onto hope and change (no pun intended) and how Hitler and his socialist programs were so attractive, yet the ultimate outcome was what history remembers. Sorry man, but there are very similar parts to what is happening here. The difference is that the process is going so much slower (it took only 5 years in Austria and they didn't notice either just as you and many pother don't, even with it happening that quickly). We have been on that path since the 1930's ourselves - Wilson actually began it in 1913-1916 which was the beginning of the Progressive movement and he labeling it "The New Freedom" (the irony is glaring) and then FDR put it in full motion and he named it "The New Deal" but it was basic Progressivism. Read the multitude of programs listed in both links I provided and then try to tell me that it doesn't sound like what the lady described in her story about the social programs, full employment and other Progressive socialist actions taken in our past as well as what is happening today. The government control and take over of healthcare. We have had enough people that fought against it to a level that our transformation into what Austria ended up becoming has taken longer and we are still not there yet - although we are a hell of a lot closer than either you nor I would like to admit.

In the US, it's more of a "death by a thousand cuts" type scenario, or like the frog in water that doesn't realize the water temperature is rising until it's too late and he's cooked alive. For instance, we were anti-socialist and anti-communist, until we got used to Social Security and Medicare. Then came the other programs, slowly and surely we all began to like them as well - cut-cut-cut.

We fought against any infringements on our 2nd Amendment rights until we were convinced that we needed "reasonable" gun control. Then we were convinced that those gun controls weren't enough, so we restricted and infringed on our 2nd Amendment rights even more - but it was reasonable and just a little bit (cut-cut-cut) that we thought it wasn't a problem. Then we outright banned rifles that the anti-gun folks called "assault rifles" because they looked scary, but we were able to repeal that one. Now, they are calling again, for "reasonable gun control" laws - which is another way of saying infringing upon the 2nd Amendment rights of law abiding citizens, and if you don't agree with them you are labeled all the bad names the anti-gun folks can think of to try to shame us into laying down again and letting the government seize our rights and never give them back. I've even read posts on this very forum saying that law abiding citizens should have no problem with new gun restrictions (a parroting of what the lady in the story said).

Food stamps, government housing, government cell phones, government subsidies for everything. Saying that we are at the level that Austria found itself in after only five years under Germany's control is not reasonable. However, denying that it is happening here is also not reasonable, nor is it an honest view of reality.

Helix · Oct 7, 2015

Beaudreaux said:
The story is not about Germany... it's about Austria and the Austrian people's need to grasp onto hope and change (no pun intended) and how Hitler and his socialist programs were so attractive, yet the ultimate outcome was what history remembers. Sorry man, but there are very similar parts to what is happening here. The difference is that the process is going so much slower (it took only 5 years in Austria and they didn't notice either just as you and many pother don't, even with it happening that quickly). We have been on that path since the 1930's ourselves - Wilson actually began it in 1913-1916 which was the beginning of the Progressive movement and he labeling it "The New Freedom" (the irony is glaring) and then FDR put it in full motion and he named it "The New Deal" but it was basic Progressivism. Read the multitude of programs listed in both links I provided and then try to tell me that it doesn't sound like what the lady described in her story about the social programs, full employment and other Progressive socialist actions taken in our past as well as what is happening today. The government control and take over of healthcare. We have had enough people that fought against it to a level that our transformation into what Austria ended up becoming has taken longer and we are still not there yet - although we are a hell of a lot closer than either you nor I would like to admit.

In the US, it's more of a "death by a thousand cuts" type scenario, or like the frog in water that doesn't realize the water temperature is rising until it's too late and he's cooked alive. For instance, we were anti-socialist and anti-communist, until we got used to Social Security and Medicare. Then came the other programs, slowly and surely we all began to like them as well - cut-cut-cut.

We fought against any infringements on our 2nd Amendment rights until we were convinced that we needed "reasonable" gun control. Then we were convinced that those gun controls weren't enough, so we restricted and infringed on our 2nd Amendment rights even more - but it was reasonable and just a little bit (cut-cut-cut) that we thought it wasn't a problem. Then we outright banned rifles that the anti-gun folks called "assault rifles" because they looked scary, but we were able to repeal that one. Now, they are calling again, for "reasonable gun control" laws - which is another way of saying infringing upon the 2nd Amendment rights of law abiding citizens, and if you don't agree with them you are labeled all the bad names the anti-gun folks can think of to try to shame us into laying down again and letting the government seize our rights and never give them back. I've even read posts on this very forum saying that law abiding citizens should have no problem with new gun restrictions (a parroting of what the lady in the story said).

Food stamps, government housing, government cell phones, government subsidies for everything. Saying that we are at the level that Austria found itself in after only five years under Germany's control is not reasonable. However, denying that it is happening here is also not reasonable, nor is it an honest view of reality.

the current political situation in the US is in no way analogous to Nazi Germany, even slightly. our most left wing presidential candidate probably wouldn't even generate a headline in most of modern Europe, which also is not comparable to Nazi Germany. implying any level of equivalence is hyperbole.

Beaudreaux · Oct 7, 2015

Helix said:
the current political situation in the US is in no way analogous to Nazi Germany, even slightly. our most left wing presidential candidate probably wouldn't even generate a headline in most of modern Europe, which also is not comparable to Nazi Germany. implying any level of equivalence is hyperbole.

We aren't discussing the atrocities of Nazi Germany. We are discussing the facts related to how a seemingly reasonable government action can compound upon other seemingly reasonable government actions to the point that they become government control, then government limitations of freedoms, then government seizure of liberty... and all under the banner of Progressive government socialism which all sounds good in the sales fliers, but not so good after it takes ahold.

We are not discussing modern day Europe, or how we compare to them either. As for the current democratic candidates, we already have one that is a proud socialist, and one that has called herself a "Wilson style" Progressive. Reality is what it is. Reality is not hyperbole. Admitting that we are, and have been, on that path for almost 80 years is not hyperbole - I gave you the links and the facts to compare to the ladies story she told, which can also be matched to real history very easily. To say that the two do not coincide in path, although not in timeline (as I already have mentioned), is intentional mendacity at best and purposefully fraudulent to divert from the truth at worst. In fact, that we have been taking 80 years to get to our current point has done nothing but help us by generational loss of memory to accept the status quo which just makes more restrictive government control of our freedoms feel just as "Reasonable."

Helix · Oct 7, 2015

Beaudreaux said:
We aren't discussing the atrocities of Nazi Germany. We are discussing the facts related to how a seemingly reasonable government action can compound upon other seemingly reasonable government actions to the point that they become government control, then government limitations of freedoms, then government seizure of liberty... and all under the banner of Progressive government socialism which all sounds good in the sales fliers, but not so good after it takes ahold.

We are not discussing modern day Europe, or how we compare to them either. As for the current democratic candidates, we already have one that is a proud socialist, and one that has called herself a "Wilson style" Progressive. Reality is what it is. Reality is not hyperbole. Admitting that we are, and have been, on that path for almost 80 years is not hyperbole - I gave you the links and the facts to compare to the ladies story she told, which can also be matched to real history very easily. To say that the two do not coincide in path, although not in timeline (as I already have mentioned), is intentional mendacity at best and purposefully fraudulent to divert from the truth at worst. In fact, that we have been taking 80 years to get to our current point has done nothing but help us by generational loss of memory to accept the status quo which just makes more restrictive government control of our freedoms feel just as "Reasonable."

no candidate on the right or left is comparable to Hitler, and no current US political scenario is analogous to Nazi Germany. i know that it is satisfying for one side or the other to pretend that is the case, but it isn't. it's hyperbole.

David_N · Oct 7, 2015

Beaudreaux said:
We aren't discussing the atrocities of Nazi Germany. We are discussing the facts related to how a seemingly reasonable government action can compound upon other seemingly reasonable government actions to the point that they become government control, then government limitations of freedoms, then government seizure of liberty... and all under the banner of Progressive government socialism which all sounds good in the sales fliers, but not so good after it takes ahold.

We are not discussing modern day Europe, or how we compare to them either. As for the current democratic candidates, we already have one that is a proud socialist, and one that has called herself a "Wilson style" Progressive. Reality is what it is. Reality is not hyperbole. Admitting that we are, and have been, on that path for almost 80 years is not hyperbole - I gave you the links and the facts to compare to the ladies story she told, which can also be matched to real history very easily. To say that the two do not coincide in path, although not in timeline (as I already have mentioned), is intentional mendacity at best and purposefully fraudulent to divert from the truth at worst. In fact, that we have been taking 80 years to get to our current point has done nothing but help us by generational loss of memory to accept the status quo which just makes more restrictive government control of our freedoms feel just as "Reasonable."

"

We aren't discussing the atrocities of Nazi Germany. We are discussing the facts related to how a seemingly reasonable government action can compound upon other seemingly reasonable government actions to the point that they become government control, then government limitations of freedoms, then government seizure of liberty... and all under the banner of Progressive government socialism which all sounds good in the sales fliers, but not so good after it takes ahold.

"
Show me where this has happened in modern european countries who, actually, are very friendly to business.

Beaudreaux · Oct 7, 2015

Helix said:
no candidate on the right or left is comparable to Hitler, and no current US political scenario is analogous to Nazi Germany. i know that it is satisfying for one side or the other to pretend that is the case, but it isn't. it's hyperbole.

We are not comparing Hitler to anyone or Nazi Germany to our country. We are talking about socialist government control and restrictions, that just happened to also be implemented in Austria by their German overlords and how the people of Austria not just accepted it, but willingly begged them to take control in a plebiscite that passed by 98%.

Progressivism is also the type of socialist ideology that led to the Austrians losing their personal liberty and freedoms, one small cut at a time. I'm not trying to say that we are turning into Nazi Germany, nor is the OP or the lady in the OP story - yes, that would be hyperbole. However, again, that is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing how intoxicating Progressivism can be to those that feel left out, or left behind, or forgotten, but also how destructive it can be to relinquish your freedoms, liberty and rights to the government in the name of progress.

Beaudreaux · Oct 7, 2015

David_N said:
""
Show me where this has happened in modern european countries who, actually, are very friendly to business.

I wasn't discussing how this has happened in modern Europe, although that argument can be made very easily if I wanted to, but I don't. Why? Because I was discussing how it has happened and is happening incrementally in the US over the last 80 years (and I gave you links).

David_N · Oct 7, 2015

Beaudreaux said:
I wasn't discussing how this has happened in modern Europe, although that argument can be made very easily if I wanted to, but I don't. Why? Because I was discussing how it has happened and is happening incrementally in the US over the last 80 years (and I gave you links).

Yes, we know that us adopting moderate policies that would be viewed as leaning right in europe is leading us to full communism.

Helix · Oct 7, 2015

Beaudreaux said:
We are not comparing Hitler to anyone or Nazi Germany to our country. We are talking about socialist government control and restrictions, that just happened to also be implemented in Austria by their German overlords and how the people of Austria not just accepted it, but willingly begged them to take control in a plebiscite that passed by 98%.

Progressivism is also the type of socialist ideology that led to the Austrians losing their personal liberty and freedoms, one small cut at a time. I'm not trying to say that we are turning into Nazi Germany, nor is the OP or the lady in the OP story - yes, that would be hyperbole. However, again, that is not what we are discussing here. We are discussing how intoxicating Progressivism can be to those that feel left out, or left behind, or forgotten, but also how destructive it can be to relinquish your freedoms, liberty and rights to the government in the name of progress.

then that is the argument to be made, and without invoking Hitler in the process. doing so is as hyperbolic as those who argued that Bush was analogous to Hitler, and Clinton before him. and my point still stands : the farthest reaches of the elected American political left are mostly analogous to the modern European middle left. not to mention that Hitler was a far right wing authoritarian, regardless of what revisionist historians currently argue. if one wants to engage in hyperbole, he or she should compare the American far left wing to Stalin, not Hitler. however, that would still be horse****.

Beaudreaux · Oct 7, 2015

Helix said:
then that is the argument to be made, and without invoking Hitler in the process. doing so is as hyperbolic as those who argued that Bush was analogous to Hitler, and Clinton before him. and my point still stands : the farthest reaches of the elected American political left are mostly analogous to the modern European middle left. not to mention that Hitler was a far right wing authoritarian, regardless of what revisionist historians currently argue. if one wants to engage in hyperbole, he or she should compare the American far left wing to Stalin, not Hitler. unfortunately, that would still be horse****.

Who's doing what you listed and railed about above? Not me. I'm not going to argue about Hitler and whether he was left or right, or Stalin, nor will I let you drag me into that discussion. You may however have that discussion with whomever will take up that wand and run with it.

As I have said numerous times, I was discussing Progressivism and Socialism as a whole and how over the last 80 years the US has been on the same path that Austria went through in just 5 years, and that we as a people are allowing our freedoms, liberty and rights to be seized, and that in many case we have willing relinquished them just as the Austrians did by the 98% approval of their plebiscite in 1938.

Redress · Oct 7, 2015

Oh look, it is "look out, there is some one in/running for government office I dislike, so we better beware the ****ing nazis!" thread 5145703475327503247502375, now with added weak ass denial("Oh no, I am not really saying it, but what if..."). Why is it we cannot talk about politics without bringing in ****ing nazis?

Henrin · Oct 7, 2015

David_N said:
Show me where this has happened in modern european countries who, actually, are very friendly to business.

What qualifies as unfriendly to business?

David_N · Oct 7, 2015

Henrin said:
What qualifies as unfriendly to business?

I always hear right wing people complain that the government is killing businesses, and then they turn around and claim europe is full blown socialism while ignoring that europe is friendly to businesses.

Henrin · Oct 7, 2015

David_N said:
I always hear right wing people complain that the government is killing businesses, and then they turn around and claim europe is full blown socialism while ignoring that europe is friendly to businesses.

So anyway..

What qualifies as unfriendly to business?

David_N · Oct 7, 2015

Henrin said:
So anyway..

What qualifies as unfriendly to business?

Using the things I hear from the right, corporate tax rates, etc..

pbrauer · Oct 7, 2015

Beaudreaux said:
Who's doing what you listed and railed about above? Not me. I'm not going to argue about Hitler and whether he was left or right, or Stalin, nor will I let you drag me into that discussion. You may however have that discussion with whomever will take up that wand and run with it.

As I have said numerous times, I was discussing Progressivism and Socialism as a whole and how over the last 80 years the US has been on the same path that Austria went through in just 5 years, and that we as a people are allowing our freedoms, liberty and rights to be seized, and that in many case we have willing relinquished them just as the Austrians did by the 98% approval of their plebiscite in 1938.

Progressives are not in favor of the Patriot Act, that was done by conservatives in 2001.

Beaudreaux · Oct 7, 2015

pbrauer said:
Progressives are not in favor of the Patriot Act, that was done by conservatives in 2001.

True. Protectionists tend to run in the same circle as Progressives when it comes to government power (although they would absolutely vomit if they realized it was true). They just look at different freedoms, liberties and rights to infringe upon, based of course on "National Security." Some on the right are against Net Neutrality thinking that government should decide what is reasonable for content, capacity, and pricing as well as who owns what. Then there's the religious right that want us to all be subject to Biblical restrictions on our sexuality. It's not just the Progressives, Pete, that will take our freedoms, liberty and rights away. On that you're correct. However, as far as the list of items in the OP story, that would be the Progressives.

Grand Mal · Oct 7, 2015

Goshin said:
“In 1944, I was a student teacher in a small village in the Alps. The villagers were surrounded by mountain passes which, in the winter, were closed off with snow, causing people to be isolated.
“So people intermarried and offspring were sometimes retarded. When I arrived, I was told there were 15 mentally retarded adults, but they were all useful and did good manual work.
“I knew one, named Vincent, very well. He was a janitor of the school. One day I looked out the window and saw Vincent and others getting into a van.
“I asked my superior where they were going. She said to an institution where the State Health Department would teach them a trade, and to read and write. The families were required to sign papers with a little clause that they could not visit for 6 months.
“They were told visits would interfere with the program and might cause homesickness.
“As time passed, letters started to dribble back saying these people died a natural, merciful death. The villagers were not fooled. We suspected what was happening. Those people left in excellent physical health and all died within 6 months. We called this euthanasia.
“Next came gun registration. People were getting injured by guns. Hitler said that the real way to catch criminals (we still had a few) was by matching serial numbers on guns. Most citizens were law-abiding and dutifully marched to the police station to register their firearms. Not long afterwards, the police said that it was best for everyone to turn in their guns. The authorities already knew who had them, so it was futile not to comply voluntarily.
“No more freedom of speech. Anyone who said something against the government was taken away. We knew many people who were arrested, not only Jews, but also priests and ministers who spoke up.
“Totalitarianism didn’t come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until 1943, to realize full dictatorship in Austria. Had it happened overnight, my countrymen would have fought to the last breath. Instead, we had creeping gradualism. Now, our only weapons were broom handles. The whole idea sounds almost unbelievable that the state, little by little eroded our freedom.” “This is my eyewitness account.
“It’s true. Those of us who sailed past the Statue of Liberty came to a country of unbelievable freedom and opportunity.
“America is truly is the greatest country in the world. “Don’t let freedom slip away.
“After America, there is no place to go.”

Kitty Werthmann

Ohferfvcksakes.

Redress · Oct 7, 2015

Goshin said:
Whether you think we are in such peril in the USA, now or in the near future, her story is still very much worth a read IMO.

So I looked her up, and sure enough, she really is comparing Obama to hitler. Oh, and by the way, the US currently is nothing at all like Austria at the time of the Anshluss. Major fail there dude, not even a good Godwinn.

Kitty Werthmann's message to us...

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

betuadollar

Helix

Goshin

Burned Out Ex-Mod

opendebate

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend

Helix

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend

Helix

David_N

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend

David_N

Helix

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!

Henrin

David_N

Henrin

David_N

pbrauer

Beaudreaux

Preserve Protect Defend

Grand Mal

Russian warship, go f*** yourself!

Redress

Liberal Fascist For Life!