Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)[W:70:96]

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

opendebate said:

I think that when you say things to me, about me ummmm.....ya are.

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So what? This is not about YOU. It's about what you POSTED. After you figure that out we can then move on to productive debate and you defending your position rather than posting butthurt nonsense.

opendebate said:

Just because you took it a certain way doesn't mean that was my intent. If you chose to hold onto your prejudices instead of take MY word for what MY intentions were, it is certainly your prerogative. I am guilty, perhaps or at worst, of being a little less than thorough in my presentation but I'll forgive myself that. This is my first debate forum.

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Than clarify your position rather than playing the "i'm offended" card. I type bluntly and it can sound harsh, so what? Confront what I am saying with fact. And stop taking it personal like somehow I know you.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

opendebate said:

Well since you started with one I guess I am off the hook because technically.... I was just standing my ground.

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Please point out where I made a personal attack on you?

Oh now you are running?

Well I guess that makes sense.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Black Manta said:

Please point out where I made a personal attack on you?

Oh now you are running?

Well I guess that makes sense.

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You don't scare me BM. I have a life I have to get back to, but I will respond when I can.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

opendebate said:

If you think you can conduct a civil conversation and bridal your rage a little I am happy to share my opinion. But I am really not interested in a petty fight.

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There was no rage in my post or in my mentality at the moment so I'm honestly perplexed at how you came to that assumption, I brought up some very serious concerns if you do not want to discuss it then don't but you probably shouldn't have brought up the topic in the first place if you had no intention of coming across different view points then your own.

You keep ignoring my questions, do you not see the problem in making accusations of racism, admitting that you cannot back them up and that they are just a suspicion on your own part while yet still pursuing the same course?

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

opendebate said:

You don't scare me BM. I have a life I have to get back to, but I will respond when I can.

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Yawn! Yea sure thing. If it is of the same quality as the rest... A Lot of yelling, ad hominems and exaggerations... I am not really that interested.

Have nice day.

Scare you? LMAO! OK.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

HonestJoe said:

I wouldn't say such an assumption is supported by crime statistics at all. It's supported by mainstream ignorance of crime statistics (and statistics in general).

The key fact is that the vast majority of people aren't criminals (ignoring things like speeding, "borrowing" stationary from work and the like). Even if, in a given area, 1% of white kids are criminals and 10% of black kids are criminals, it'd still be logically wrong to assume a random black kid is a criminal - there is a 90% chance that you're wrong.

The problem is that people see the news and (misrepresented) statistics which doesn't give a balanced view of the world, both in what is presented and the manner in which it is. We're not assessing anything on a considered understanding of the statistical reality (in as much as statistics can represent reality at all). This impacts all sorts of things of course - race is just one of them.

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It is not just because of race. We make reasoned guesses based on a combination of factors. A black v. a white; young v. older; the way they dress; the expression on their face; the way they carry themselves; are the known or unfamiliar faces. Put enough of those combinations together and I would maintain that blacks will reach "thug" status in most minds a lot sooner than a similarly situated white kid.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Black Manta said:

You think because it's honestly how YOU feel, somehow makes it right? No, it doesn't. Lets clarify your statement for what it is and not move on.

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You are welcome to try, but you haven't a chance.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

TiredOfLife said:

You are welcome to try, but you haven't a chance.

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So you got nothing. So typical.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Black Manta said:

So you got nothing. So typical.

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You had your shot. As expected, you couldn't pull the trigger.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Monserrat said:

There was no rage in my post or in my mentality at the moment so I'm honestly perplexed at how you came to that assumption, I brought up some very serious concerns if you do not want to discuss it then don't but you probably shouldn't have brought up the topic in the first place if you had no intention of coming across different view points then your own.

You keep ignoring my questions, do you not see the problem in making accusations of racism, admitting that you cannot back them up and that they are just a suspicion on your own part while yet still pursuing the same course?

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You make a good point, I probably shouldn't have included the parenthetical reference, I did it because it is involved indirectly but it could be misleading. Still, you seem way too combative and abrasive. Sorry.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

TiredOfLife said:

You had your shot. As expected, you couldn't pull the trigger.

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Nothing to pull. You have yet to address my initial post with other than... Well nothing but drop it.

So as soon as you have other than lip service, you let me know.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Monserrat said:

There was no rage in my post or in my mentality at the moment so I'm honestly perplexed at how you came to that assumption, I brought up some very serious concerns if you do not want to discuss it then don't but you probably shouldn't have brought up the topic in the first place if you had no intention of coming across different view points then your own.

You keep ignoring my questions, do you not see the problem in making accusations of racism, admitting that you cannot back them up and that they are just a suspicion on your own part while yet still pursuing the same course?

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Well so far she has not got anything to back up her post but her opinion, and not much else.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

opendebate said:

You make a good point, I probably shouldn't have included the parenthetical reference, I did it because it is involved indirectly but it could be misleading. Still, you seem way too combative and abrasive. Sorry.

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Could you please stop turning this onto me! If you want to debate then debate I have made some really excellent points but each step of the way you have failed to discuss any of them or directed your attentions onto me by first wrongfully assuming that I'm full of rage (I'm not), and then saying that I'm abrasive. Maybe I am a bit "abrasive" sometimes although I wouldn't use that word, I'm just strong minded especially on topics where people don't see the harm their thought process can cause. This is serious subject matter you are making accusations of racial discrimination/prejudice and or outright racism and you do not have proof to back it up. People's lives and career have been ruined because of such accusations and frankly I'm tired of people throwing around such harmful accusations like that without being held accountable and that's what happened in the TM/GZ case and it ended up hurting innocent people like when the GZ haters showed up on one of GZ's neighbors doorstep threatening them because they thought the neighbor was where GZ was located.

Anyway I haven't once directed my responses against you personally or anyone else on DP for that matter and quite frankly you responded to my post first so if you want to actually debate instead of just trying to go after my debate style or me personally then fine that's cool.

If you are interested then I'm very very curious as to why you think it's okay to throw around accusations of racial discrimination/racism without any evidence to back it up. Do you really not see the potential harm that that can cause?

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Monserrat said:

Could you please stop turning this onto me! If you want to debate then debate I have made some really excellent points but each step of the way you have failed to discuss any of them or directed your attentions onto me by first wrongfully assuming that I'm full of rage (I'm not), and then saying that I'm abrasive. Maybe I am a bit "abrasive" sometimes although I wouldn't use that word, I'm just strong minded especially on topics where people don't see the harm their thought process can cause. This is serious subject matter you are making accusations of racial discrimination/prejudice and or outright racism and you do not have proof to back it up. People's lives and career have been ruined because of such accusations and frankly I'm tired of people throwing around such harmful accusations like that without being held accountable and that's what happened in the TM/GZ case and it ended up hurting innocent people like when the GZ haters showed up on one of GZ's neighbors doorstep threatening them because they thought the neighbor was where GZ was located.

Anyway I haven't once directed my responses against you personally or anyone else on DP for that matter and quite frankly you responded to my post first so if you want to actually debate instead of just trying to go after my debate style or me personally then fine that's cool.

If you are interested then I'm very very curious as to why you think it's okay to throw around accusations of racial discrimination/racism without any evidence to back it up. Do you really not see the potential harm that that can cause?

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Let's just start all over. You up for it?

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Black Manta said:

Well so far she has not got anything to back up her post but her opinion, and not much else.

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That's what scares me the most, even more so the fact that there are many others who have so quickly jumped to the same conclusions without first finding the necessary proof. Making allegations of racism is a very serious thing, I've seen it happen before without demanding even the tiniest bit of evidence to back up those claims. They could really hurt someone's life.

Now I'm not saying that there is no place for discussion on racial bias or discrimination or outright racism. It clearly exists but to try to interject it into a place that shows no evidence of it is very very wrong.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Monserrat said:

That's what scares me the most, even more so the fact that there are many others who have so quickly jumped to the same conclusions without first finding the necessary proof. Making allegations of racism is a very serious thing, I've seen it happen before without demanding even the tiniest bit of evidence to back up those claims. They could really hurt someone's life.

Now I'm not saying that there is no place for discussion on racial bias or discrimination or outright racism. It clearly exists but to try to interject it into a place that shows no evidence of it is very very wrong.

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Good points. When it is responsible for something I agree not only should it be exposed for what it is, it should be condemned. So I agree with your statement.

My biggest problem with this is she is going to say "have an open mind" open to what? racism was not involved and played no real part other than the race baiting form the sidelines. So it comes of like if you don't believe it was racial, you have a closed mind. Now if you point this out... No data... just excuses of why she will not back it up like...

You are angry, aggressive etc etc. Nothing but lies and excuses as far as I am concerned. All you or even I asked for was evidence and how you could reasonably come to her stated conclusion. The fact is you can't. She knows this.

It is a damn shame is what it is.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Monserrat said:

That's what scares me the most, even more so the fact that there are many others who have so quickly jumped to the same conclusions without first finding the necessary proof. Making allegations of racism is a very serious thing, I've seen it happen before without demanding even the tiniest bit of evidence to back up those claims. They could really hurt someone's life.

Now I'm not saying that there is no place for discussion on racial bias or discrimination or outright racism. It clearly exists but to try to interject it into a place that shows no evidence of it is very very wrong.

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Should I take that as a NO?

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Dapper Andy said:

Sure but that half of the country always believes race is the factor when something negative happens to a black person.

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No, not always...It would depend on the circumstances.. People get killed every day.. Black people get killed everyday...Seldom does it make national news....This case was extraordinary from the very beginning...

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Juanita said:

No, not always...It would depend on the circumstances.. People get killed every day.. Black people get killed everyday...Seldom does it make national news....This case was extraordinary from the very beginning...

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Maybe not if the black person wronged is a Republican but otherwise yes, always.

And it's getting foolish now. The most accurate quote I saw about Zimmerman's defending himself was something along the lines of only in America can a Hispanic man shoot a black man and a white man gets blamed.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Black Manta said:

I am sorry your comment was so much to respond to and so contributory...



Pot meet kettle.

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opendebate said:

I think that when you say things to me, about me ummmm.....ya are.

Just because you took it a certain way doesn't mean that was my intent. If you chose to hold onto your prejudices instead of take MY word for what MY intentions were, it is certainly your prerogative. I am guilty, perhaps or at worst, of being a little less than thorough in my presentation but I'll forgive myself that. This is my first debate forum.

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Moderator's Warning:

You two, specifically, need to stop the personal exchanges and go back to the topic. As does anyone else going forward.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Don't you just love those rose colored glasses....Prejudice can be very subtle.... Some people put other people in more than one category....Maybe GW looked at it as "good" black people vs "bad" black people--you know, those assholes who always get away..... Just like some people can "accept" an African American of light complexion, but shy away at darker skin, will be fine with straight or curly hair, but run like hell from an afro...

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Juanita said:

Don't you just love those rose colored glasses....Prejudice can be very subtle.... Some people put other people in more than one category....Maybe GW looked at it as "good" black people vs "bad" black people--you know, those assholes who always get away..... Just like some people can "accept" an African American of light complexion, but shy away at darker skin, will be fine with straight or curly hair, but run like hell from an afro...

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Good black people vs bad black people? That's not racism at all, that is a judgement call normal people make everyday. Has nothing at all to do with "rose colored glasses" or any such nonsense. Those "assholes who always get away" could mean anyone, anyone at all but specifically criminals. Since we know George was well liked in his community, grew up around black siblings and fought for the rights of a homeless black man, we can assume as did the state department, and the prosecuting attorney's, race had nothing at all to do with this.

The rest is well just your opinion. Has no relevance at all, none.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Dapper Andy said:

Maybe not if the black person wronged is a Republican but otherwise yes, always.

And it's getting foolish now. The most accurate quote I saw about Zimmerman's defending himself was something along the lines of only in America can a Hispanic man shoot a black man and a white man gets blamed.

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Yea good point.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Juanita said:

Don't you just love those rose colored glasses....Prejudice can be very subtle.... Some people put other people in more than one category....Maybe GW looked at it as "good" black people vs "bad" black people--you know, those assholes who always get away..... Just like some people can "accept" an African American of light complexion, but shy away at darker skin, will be fine with straight or curly hair, but run like hell from an afro...

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Some people struggle with subtleties. I think it's an IQ thing.

Re: Facing Reality: Race Matters (questioning justice in the Travon Martin case)

Do I see U.N.C.L.E. coming down the wrong road? Again? no names of course...