• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Change of Subject: from Zimmerman to the larger issue

opendebate said:
Point taken, but that is what I am saying happens on a regular basis.
Click to expand...
That's not the same as having a massive inequity in the legal system, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it is--black people are targeted by the criminal justice system simply because of the color of their skin. Why do you think that is, and what should we do about it?
 
FederalRepublic said:
That's not the same as having a massive inequity in the legal system, but let's assume for the sake of argument that it is--black people are targeted by the criminal justice system simply because of the color of their skin. Why do you think that is, and what should we do about it?
Click to expand...


Let me show you some interesting information I found (don't know how you feel about the Center for American Progress)

While people of color make up about 30 percent of the United States’ population, they account for 60 percent of those imprisoned.
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, one in three black men can expect to go to prison in their lifetime
Students of color face harsher punishments in school than their white peers, leading to a higher number of youth of color incarcerated
According to recent data by the Department of Education, African American students are arrested far more often than their white classmates.
African American youth have higher rates of juvenile incarceration and are more likely to be sentenced to adult prison.
As the number of women incarcerated has increased by 800 percent over the last three decades, women of color have been disproportionately represented
The war on drugs has been waged primarily in communities of color where people of color are more likely to receive higher offenses.
Once convicted, black offenders receive longer sentences compared to white offenders
Voter laws that prohibit people with felony convictions to vote disproportionately impact men of color.
Studies have shown that people of color face disparities in wage trajectory following release from prison.

These are facts and I think it has come to this for a variety of reasons so it follows that it needs to be addressed at a lot of different levels, but exactly what the solutions are are way over my head. I would think stricter oversight obviously. Our judicial system is supposed to be fair and objective and clearly it is not. How can we have so much evidence that young black men consistently (not in every instance obviously but consistently) get sentenced to more time for the same crime and let it continue? The ripple effect of so many young men ending up in prison is devastating. Not to mention that incarceration does not reform people.

I happen to think that poverty is a major cause so maybe better quality public education in poor communities, maybe vocational options at high schools in poorer communities, free community counseling for parents and couples, information about proper nutrition and adequate health care...things along those lines. The problem with programs like this is that they can be taken advantage of so they would have to be heavily monitored and people would have to held accountable for results. I don't know, like I said...over my head.

I know this about human nature, we like to succeed and we like to believe we have it in us to make our own way, we want to take pride in our lives. I do think that programs in the past of robbed people of that faith in themselves. When you feel hopeless or like you have nothing to loose you make bad choices. Nobody WANTS to be taken care of, I think people surrender to it because they feel it is their only option.
 
opendebate said:
Nobody WANTS to be taken care of, I think people surrender to it because they feel it is their only option.
Click to expand...

I disagree with that sentence. People exploit welfare and unemployment knowing full well it's an easy ride. I see it plenty.
 
ecofarm said:
I disagree with that sentence. People exploit welfare and unemployment knowing full well it's an easy ride. I see it plenty.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I actually should have said most people not nobody, good point. I however, believe that while some may just want the free ride many would prefer to take care of themselves and their families and have a job they could take pride in.
 
opendebate said:
Let me show you some interesting information I found (don't know how you feel about the Center for American Progress)

While people of color make up about 30 percent of the United States’ population, they account for 60 percent of those imprisoned.
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, one in three black men can expect to go to prison in their lifetime
Students of color face harsher punishments in school than their white peers, leading to a higher number of youth of color incarcerated
According to recent data by the Department of Education, African American students are arrested far more often than their white classmates.
African American youth have higher rates of juvenile incarceration and are more likely to be sentenced to adult prison.
As the number of women incarcerated has increased by 800 percent over the last three decades, women of color have been disproportionately represented
The war on drugs has been waged primarily in communities of color where people of color are more likely to receive higher offenses.
Once convicted, black offenders receive longer sentences compared to white offenders
Voter laws that prohibit people with felony convictions to vote disproportionately impact men of color.
Studies have shown that people of color face disparities in wage trajectory following release from prison.

These are facts and I think it has come to this for a variety of reasons so it follows that it needs to be addressed at a lot of different levels, but exactly what the solutions are are way over my head. I would think stricter oversight obviously. Our judicial system is supposed to be fair and objective and clearly it is not. How can we have so much evidence that young black men consistently (not in every instance obviously but consistently) get sentenced to more time for the same crime and let it continue? The ripple effect of so many young men ending up in prison is devastating. Not to mention that incarceration does not reform people.

I happen to think that poverty is a major cause so maybe better quality public education in poor communities, maybe vocational options at high schools in poorer communities, free community counseling for parents and couples, information about proper nutrition and adequate health care...things along those lines. The problem with programs like this is that they can be taken advantage of so they would have to be heavily monitored and people would have to held accountable for results. I don't know, like I said...over my head.

I know this about human nature, we like to succeed and we like to believe we have it in us to make our own way, we want to take pride in our lives. I do think that programs in the past of robbed people of that faith in themselves. When you feel hopeless or like you have nothing to loose you make bad choices. Nobody WANTS to be taken care of, I think people surrender to it because they feel it is their only option.
Click to expand...

This is so much more thoughtful (and thought-provoking) than the article in your original post. You could teach that author a lesson. I'm aware of most of these facts you posted and don't question their authenticity. I'll tell you what I think is the primary reason for the state of affairs in the "black community". Mind you, I'm speaking in very broad generalizations, but I think it has to do with their culture (and the differences between theirs and mine) and much less to do with actual skin color. More teenage moms, more single moms, drugs, crime, lack of education (and the shaming of those who want to study), distrust and confrontational attitude with police, lack of work ethic (and shaming those who work hard). None of these things have anything to do with skin color, but all of them contribute to the statistics you posted. Blacks as a group will never have an equal footing with whites or other racial groups until they start to change these aspects of their culture and that's not something that you or I can do for them.
 
FederalRepublic said:
This is so much more thoughtful (and thought-provoking) than the article in your original post. You could teach that author a lesson. I'm aware of most of these facts you posted and don't question their authenticity. I'll tell you what I think is the primary reason for the state of affairs in the "black community". Mind you, I'm speaking in very broad generalizations, but I think it has to do with their culture (and the differences between theirs and mine) and much less to do with actual skin color. More teenage moms, more single moms, drugs, crime, lack of education (and the shaming of those who want to study), distrust and confrontational attitude with police, lack of work ethic (and shaming those who work hard). None of these things have anything to do with skin color, but all of them contribute to the statistics you posted. Blacks as a group will never have an equal footing with whites or other racial groups until they start to change these aspects of their culture and that's not something that you or I can do for them.
Click to expand...
One thing I think we can do that would help is to stop telling their children that they can't do it themselves and start to strip away the limitations placed on them by society's low expectations.
 
FederalRepublic said:
This is so much more thoughtful (and thought-provoking) than the article in your original post. You could teach that author a lesson. I'm aware of most of these facts you posted and don't question their authenticity. I'll tell you what I think is the primary reason for the state of affairs in the "black community". Mind you, I'm speaking in very broad generalizations, but I think it has to do with their culture (and the differences between theirs and mine) and much less to do with actual skin color. More teenage moms, more single moms, drugs, crime, lack of education (and the shaming of those who want to study), distrust and confrontational attitude with police, lack of work ethic (and shaming those who work hard). None of these things have anything to do with skin color, but all of them contribute to the statistics you posted. Blacks as a group will never have an equal footing with whites or other racial groups until they start to change these aspects of their culture and that's not something that you or I can do for them.
Click to expand...

Well thank you.

You may be surprised to hear that I agree with many of your comments. Here, however, is where we may differ. Within in the context of the lives those who live in poor, violent homes with no fathers etc lives, I believe that much of the the behavior makes sense. You say culture, but what is the history of black culture in this country. I think it is difficult to consider anyone behaviors outside the context of their lives and their family and community history not to mention the history of their race in this country. If this is the case then to me, it alters how you address the problem.

I will provide you a personal example. I have posted this before so forgive me for repeating myself but I see it as relevant and I don't want to be melodramatic I just happen to believe it illustrates my point very well. May be TMI for some but again, I hope that it helps to illustrate my point. I grew up in a very poor family with 7 siblings (1 boy 7 girls) and an abusive alcoholic for a father and a bright but uneducated mother. He had a terrible temper, beat my mother regularly, abusive in basically every conceivable way. That awful man, of course, shaped the way I perceived men. I was angry, distrustful, afraid etc. The bravado I displayed in relationships was perceived as necessary to stay safe. All which make sense given my experience. I grew up, had relationships etc but those behaviors continued on my part because I could not be see that they were no longer necessary. Few people can see themselves that objectively. I was very lucky, eventually I met good men who were patient and understood and helped me to evolve my understandings. Which was no easy task because when fear motivates your behavior it is even harder to let it go. What would happen if those particular people hadn't come along and helped me out. What if instead my experiences in my adult life only reinforced those early lessons. And further yet what if AS a child those lessons were reinforced outside of my home, in my community in my friends homes. I would have stayed stuck in that thinking. I needed someone to help me learn another way. I was not naturally a bitter, angry woman I was a hurt and frightened woman who was taught bad information as child when I had no chance of understanding really, what I was even being taught let alone it didn't apply to everyone; that it was a bad lesson.

This is how human beings are made, regardless of their color. Bad information in, bad choices and bad behavior out. Now, I do not believe that someone gets off the hook for their behavior because they have had bad experiences that have drilled the necessity for that behavior deep within them. They are still responsible and holding them responsible, I believe, allows people to retain a little dignity and mature. But, knowing this, best informs how you seek to change the behavior. Not everyone will respond, but many many will and it would be a generational effort but in time I believe it would bring about the greatest and longest lasting changes. This is also not the great white mission, this is best executed by members of those communities.
 
Last edited:
FederalRepublic said:
One thing I think we can do that would help is to stop telling their children that they can't do it themselves and start to strip away the limitations placed on them by society's low expectations.
Click to expand...

I agree.
 
opendebate said:
Happy to discuss the social issues this trial brought to the forefront of debate but not willing to debate whether or not Trayvon is WORTHY. Not relevant.
Click to expand...

If he'd been killed by a Klansman would that have been relevant?
 
Ok, you want a discussion? This is as good a place to start as any (assuming you deem it relevant ;)):

opendebate said:
While people of color make up about 30 percent of the United States’ population, they account for 60 percent of those imprisoned.
Click to expand...

Are the disparities in incarceration due to racism or because blacks commit most of the crimes? For example, the homicide rate for blacks runs about six times that of whites. So, naturally, one would expect to find blacks incarcerated for murder at a higher rate than whites. From 1980 to 2008, blacks constituted 12.6% of the population but committed 52% of homicides. I guess we could assume men don't get justice either, eh, since they're convicted of committing almost 90% of homicides? Maybe if men had more opportunity they'd kill fewer people?

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
 
Ahlevah said:
Ok, you want a discussion? This is as good a place to start as any (assuming you deem it relevant ;)):

Are the disparities in incarceration due to racism or because blacks commit most of the crimes? For example, the homicide rate for blacks runs about six times that of whites. So, naturally, one would expect to find blacks incarcerated for murder at a higher rate than whites. From 1980 to 2008, blacks constituted 12.6% of the population but committed 52% of homicides. I guess we could assume men don't get justice either, eh, since they're convicted of committing almost 90% of homicides? Maybe if men had more opportunity they'd kill fewer people?

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/htus8008.pdf
Click to expand...

Something tells me you are not really interested in having a discussion about this but that you have already made your mind up about it and would rather just scream at me about why I am wrong. I hope you prove me wrong.

My point is not to debate whether or not these disparities exist, but rather why they exist. In case you haven't ready any of my posts, I do not believe that humans are that simple; we are to a great extent a product of our environment as well as nature. I do not believe that these disparities are caused only by racism, I believe that their are a variety of factors; racism being one of them. Racism and how it has inhibited the ability of some to raise themselves out of poverty, thus keeping them caught in the destructive cycle of poverty, is certainly one of many factors. Racism would also come into play if police are more likely to follow you, arrest you or harass you or a court is more inclined to incarcerate you. Prison does not reform people. Taking someone who has learned that they need to be violent to stay alive and throwing them in prison just reinforces that message.

In addition to that you can not take a person out of the context of their lives or the history of their community and immediate family. Most people live what they are taught or what the community they are surrounded by and the people who raised them teach them they need to do to survive. So if you are a black american who is one of these statistics chances are one of the many influences that brought you to that life are these elements.

Clearly there are exceptions, people who do manage to escape this cycle despite the odds, but those are far too few. I believe that we, as a whole as a nation, would only benefit by doing what we can to more effectively assist people caught in this cycle to make their way out. This is not to say provide excuses or not hold people personally responsible.

Regardless of the reasons these statistics are what they are something clearly needs to be done. An approach that provides real opportunity and real personal responsibility is going to be most effective.
 
Last edited:
opendebate said:
Well thank you.

You may be surprised to hear that I agree with many of your comments. Here, however, is where we may differ. Within in the context of the lives those who live in poor, violent homes with no fathers etc lives, I believe that much of the the behavior makes sense. You say culture, but what is the history of black culture in this country. I think it is difficult to consider anyone behaviors outside the context of their lives and their family and community history not to mention the history of their race in this country. If this is the case then to me, it alters how you address the problem.

I will provide you a personal example. I have posted this before so forgive me for repeating myself but I see it as relevant and I don't want to be melodramatic I just happen to believe it illustrates my point very well. May be TMI for some but again, I hope that it helps to illustrate my point. I grew up in a very poor family with 7 siblings (1 boy 7 girls) and an abusive alcoholic for a father and a bright but uneducated mother. He had a terrible temper, beat my mother regularly, abusive in basically every conceivable way. That awful man, of course, shaped the way I perceived men. I was angry, distrustful, afraid etc. The bravado I displayed in relationships was perceived as necessary to stay safe. All which make sense given my experience. I grew up, had relationships etc but those behaviors continued on my part because I could not be see that they were no longer necessary. Few people can see themselves that objectively. I was very lucky, eventually I met good men who were patient and understood and helped me to evolve my understandings. Which was no easy task because when fear motivates your behavior it is even harder to let it go. What would happen if those particular people hadn't come along and helped me out. What if instead my experiences in my adult life only reinforced those early lessons. And further yet what if AS a child those lessons were reinforced outside of my home, in my community in my friends homes. I would have stayed stuck in that thinking. I needed someone to help me learn another way. I was not naturally a bitter, angry woman I was a hurt and frightened woman who was taught bad information as child when I had no chance of understanding really, what I was even being taught let alone it didn't apply to everyone; that it was a bad lesson.

This is how human beings are made, regardless of their color. Bad information in, bad choices and bad behavior out. Now, I do not believe that someone gets off the hook for their behavior because they have had bad experiences that have drilled the necessity for that behavior deep within them. They are still responsible and holding them responsible, I believe, allows people to retain a little dignity and mature. But, knowing this, best informs how you seek to change the behavior. Not everyone will respond, but many many will and it would be a generational effort but in time I believe it would bring about the greatest and longest lasting changes. This is also not the great white mission, this is best executed by members of those communities.
Click to expand...

Doesn't sound like we differ at all, from this post anyway. Maybe you could explain the difference?
 
FederalRepublic said:
Doesn't sound like we differ at all, from this post anyway. Maybe you could explain the difference?
Click to expand...

When you posted:
but I think it has to do with their culture (and the differences between theirs and mine) and much less to do with actual skin color. More teenage moms, more single moms, drugs, crime, lack of education (and the shaming of those who want to study), distrust and confrontational attitude with police, lack of work ethic (and shaming those who work hard). "

My interpretation of this was that you were saying basically (an oversimplification on my part perhaps) that it's just who they are and that you were not taking into account the injustices that shaped that culture. Holding them solely responsible as if it was just their innate behavior. I may not have made it clear in my post, the deeper point I was making I guess is that White America has played an enormous role in shaping black culture in pushing in the direction it has taken.
 
opendebate said:
When you posted:
but I think it has to do with their culture (and the differences between theirs and mine) and much less to do with actual skin color. More teenage moms, more single moms, drugs, crime, lack of education (and the shaming of those who want to study), distrust and confrontational attitude with police, lack of work ethic (and shaming those who work hard). "

My interpretation of this was that you were saying basically (an oversimplification on my part perhaps) that it's just who they are and that you were not taking into account the injustices that shaped that culture. Holding them solely responsible as if it was just their innate behavior. I may not have made it clear in my post, the deeper point I was making I guess is that White America has played an enormous role in shaping black culture in pushing in the direction it has taken.
Click to expand...

If a progressive can take what I said and interpret it to mean that I think that the criminal behavior in the black community is innate, then it's no wonder they think I'm racist. Culture is learned, that's the opposite of innate. Have you been profiling me? Do the two quotes below really sound different to you? Sounds like an almost identical philosophy to me.

opendebate said:
Bad information in, bad choices and bad behavior out. Now, I do not believe that someone gets off the hook for their behavior because they have had bad experiences that have drilled the necessity for that behavior deep within them. They are still responsible and holding them responsible, I believe, allows people to retain a little dignity and mature. But, knowing this, best informs how you seek to change the behavior. Not everyone will respond, but many many will and it would be a generational effort but in time I believe it would bring about the greatest and longest lasting changes. This is also not the great white mission, this is best executed by members of those communities.
Click to expand...

FederalRepublic said:
None of these things have anything to do with skin color, but all of them contribute to the statistics you posted. Blacks as a group will never have an equal footing with whites or other racial groups until they start to change these aspects of their culture and that's not something that you or I can do for them.
Click to expand...
 
FederalRepublic said:
If a progressive can take what I said and interpret it to mean that I think that the criminal behavior in the black community is innate, then it's no wonder they think I'm racist. Culture is learned, that's the opposite of innate. Have you been profiling me? Do the two quotes below really sound different to you? Sounds like an almost identical philosophy to me.
Click to expand...

I just totally misunderstood you, sorry about that. I honestly think I am so use to people on this site beating the snot out of verbally because they DON'T get this that I misunderstood you. Thanks for clearing it up and thanks for having a little depth.
 
opendebate said:
Something tells me you are not really interested in having a discussion about this but that you have already made your mind up about it and would rather just scream at me about why I am wrong.
Click to expand...

OK, let me try again.

opendebate said:
My point is not to debate whether or not these disparities exist, but rather why they exist.
Click to expand...

I think the most troubling thing about the black experience in America is the breakdown of the black family. But this is not strictly something confined to blacks. More and more we're seeing a breakdown of the family structure among lower-class whites as well as was amply documented in Charles Murray's Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010. It's food for thought, anyway.

Author Charles Murray: Coming Apart at the Seams - YouTube
 
Ahlevah said:
OK, let me try again.



I think the most troubling thing about the black experience in America is the breakdown of the black family. But this is not strictly something confined to blacks. More and more we're seeing a breakdown of the family structure among lower-class whites as well as was amply documented in Charles Murray's Coming Apart: The State of White America, 1960-2010. It's food for thought, anyway.

Author Charles Murray: Coming Apart at the Seams - YouTube
Click to expand...

Okay, I'll bite then.

What specifically, do you see as symptoms of the breakdown of the family.
 
opendebate said:
Okay, I'll bite then.

What specifically, do you see as symptoms of the breakdown of the family.
Click to expand...

Higher rates of divorce; more households heading by women who were never married; having kids at a younger age from multiple fathers; lack of parental involvement in things like school, religious, or volunteer activities; having kids before completing even a high school education--that sort of thing.
 
Ahlevah said:
Higher rates of divorce; more households heading by women who were never married; having kids at a younger age from multiple fathers; lack of parental involvement in things like school, religious, or volunteer activities; having kids before completing even a high school education--that sort of thing.
Click to expand...

And what do believe are the causes.
 
opendebate said:
And what do believe are the causes.
Click to expand...

Societal mores have changed, and, coincidentally, many of these trends began concurrently with the rise of the modern welfare state. The upper class, for the most part, doesn't have kids out of wedlock. They tend to marry after they complete their educations, and they also delay child bearing, sometimes until after the mother is well-established in her own career, assuming she wants one. Once married, the rich tend to stay married. In fact, trends in marriage, such as fewer second marriages, have improved among the upper class. Contrary to public perception, the rich attend church more often than the lesser-educated lower class. So I think there's a definite socioeconomic angle to the problem. If a single mom is working two jobs to support her kids, she probably doesn't have a lot of time to attend PTA meetings or be a Den Mother.
 
Ahlevah said:
Societal mores have changed, and, coincidentally, many of these trends began concurrently with the rise of the modern welfare state. The upper class, for the most part, doesn't have kids out of wedlock. They tend to marry after they complete their educations, and they also delay child bearing, sometimes until after the mother is well-established in her own career, assuming she wants one. Once married, the rich tend to stay married. In fact, trends in marriage, such as fewer second marriages, have improved among the upper class. Contrary to public perception, the rich attend church more often than the lesser-educated lower class. So I think there's a definite socioeconomic angle to the problem. If a single mom is working two jobs to support her kids, she probably doesn't have a lot of time to attend PTA meetings or be a Den Mother.
Click to expand...

So, I am going to ask you some questions and I don't mean to come off like I am just trying to shoot a hole in your statements. (just so you know)

What do you mean by societal mores (examples) and how does this relate to the disintegration of the family?

When you say "many of these trends began concurrently with the rise of the modern welfare state: you seem to be implying a cause and effect relationship. Are you and if yes then how would that work?

Based on the following statements regarding the "upper class": I infer from that that it is your belief that education plays a crucial role in creating and maintaining a healthy family. Is that correct?
 
[/QUOTE] Well, for the record, your quote below sounds pretty much opposite the stance most "progressives" take.
opendebate said:
They are still responsible and holding them responsible, I believe, allows people to retain a little dignity and mature.
Click to expand...
The whole reason why people like me complain about Obama (and others) race baiting is that they do make excuses for bad behavior and stir the pot by bringing race into issues where it doesn't exist. Henry Gates and Trayvon Martin are just two glaring examples because the president waded into them with his preconceived notions. Since he's the president, and supposed leader, he should not allow his experience with racists as a child to hold back the progress of an entire race of people. Don't even get me started on Sharpton & Jackson. I don't hate those guys because they're black. I hate them because they're slowing down the progress of all mankind.
Sorry for going all ranty on you. I applaud you for your restraint thus far....
 
Well, for the record, your quote below sounds pretty much opposite the stance most "progressives" take. The whole reason why people like me complain about Obama (and others) race baiting is that they do make excuses for bad behavior and stir the pot by bringing race into issues where it doesn't exist. Henry Gates and Trayvon Martin are just two glaring examples because the president waded into them with his preconceived notions. Since he's the president, and supposed leader, he should not allow his experience with racists as a child to hold back the progress of an entire race of people. Don't even get me started on Sharpton & Jackson. I don't hate those guys because they're black. I hate them because they're slowing down the progress of all mankind.
Sorry for going all ranty on you. I applaud you for your restraint thus far....[/QUOTE]


I wouldn't fight you much on Sharpton and Jackson. I could pick a fight with you over the Trayvon Martin case and the Presidents speech regarding it though. And I'm not really sure what you mean by his experiences holding back an entire race of people.
 
opendebate said:
So, I am going to ask you some questions and I don't mean to come off like I am just trying to shoot a hole in your statements. (just so you know)

What do you mean by societal mores (examples) and how does this relate to the disintegration of the family?

When you say "many of these trends began concurrently with the rise of the modern welfare state: you seem to be implying a cause and effect relationship. Are you and if yes then how would that work?

Based on the following statements regarding the "upper class": I infer from that that it is your belief that education plays a crucial role in creating and maintaining a healthy family. Is that correct?
Click to expand...

It's late and I think your questions deserve some thought, so I promise I'll get you a response tomorrow (or, as it were, later today).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom