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Change of Subject: from Zimmerman to the larger issue

The only change of discussion I would like is for media to stop presenting TM as the all American hero worthy of praise and honor

In reality, we have seen a lot of digging into Z's past and using that to claim he is a 'bad' person, yet anyone mentions M's past and they are a 'racist.'

No conversation starts until crap like that stops.
 
All this "yes but.... let's get past the verdict and talk about the LARGER ISSUES..." is BS. It's simply a smokescreen for "let's do some race-baiting on this and see where it gets us, and while we're at it let's try to pressure states into infringing on the rights of citizens to defend themselves from attack and/or push more gun control."


My version is, "The system and the law worked just fine, the outcome was what it should be, and if there are larger issues that need to be addressed it is about how a good sized chunk of the population seems to hold views that have no connection to reality, backed by supposition instead of facts, lead by self-serving race-baiters whose time passed long ago."
 
I'm listening, er, reading. I hear people talking about how Zimmerman was guilty because he should have stayed in his car. That's not just noise. That's an outlook on life that is utterly foreign to me and my culture. I would never accept that premise. What common ground is there to be found?

None, either you believe Zimmerman is a murderer or you believe Trayvon was a saint. At least thats the way the race merchants are doing things.
 
Do you know how many Americans have smoked pot once, he wasn't even caught with it, just "traces" of it? Has he been charged or proven that he stole the jewelry? Even so that doesn't make him a gang-banging thug that deserves to die.
Missed that whole facebook, kicked out of school thing. Huh?
 
Missed that whole facebook, kicked out of school thing. Huh?

No actually I didn't. That doesn't prove anything. Does that mean he used it? No.
 
Yeah, and I don't get the point of it. Complaining about circular conversations with a circular conversation about circular conversations.

The responses did not respect the intent of the article or the post which is to shift the conversation away from the Zimmerman case to the larger issue that have surfaced around it.
 
The point....is that continued debate over the "verdict" is utterly unproductive, unless of course your goal to have an endless street brawl. Then, by all means, bicker away. I, for one, would like to see the conversation elevated to a discussion of the larger issues this cased has touched on and are really at the heart of the whole circus anyway. Did you read this article?

Cluing us in on what those "larger issues" are would be a great start, perhaps even worth including (listing?) them in your openning post. ;)
 
The responses did not respect the intent of the article or the post which is to shift the conversation away from the Zimmerman case to the larger issue that have surfaced around it.
It sounds more like he's trying to have the last word in an argument before moving on to the next topic, which I'm assuming will be why my viewpoint on the Zimmerman case is flawed. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, let discuss whatever it is you think needs to be discussed. I suspect we'll chase ourselves in a big circle right back to the start, for the reasons I gave you earlier, but either way I'm game.
 
It sounds more like he's trying to have the last word in an argument before moving on to the next topic, which I'm assuming will be why my viewpoint on the Zimmerman case is flawed. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, let discuss whatever it is you think needs to be discussed. I suspect we'll chase ourselves in a big circle right back to the start, for the reasons I gave you earlier, but either way I'm game.

Awesome.
First of all, I will be a complete hypocrite and say this one thing about the verdict, I understand and accept it.

The point at which I part company with many who call themselves Zimmerman supporters (I do not call myself a TM supporter) is that I think, whether you see the connection or not, for many many people this case brought several legitimate frustrations to the surface. For example; inequities in the justice system, the realities of racial profiling, the racism that still exists in our country and how it inhibits truly equal opportunity, the flaws in the stand your ground, the problems of drugs and violence in African American communities, frustrations with affirmative action. These are the issues that have been smoldering under the surface for some time. This case was like the final straw. It could have been any case. It was just time because to much frustration and pain had accumulated.

I have seen these issues discussed in some other forums but they always seem to degenerate into a discussion about the case again. It seems to me that until they are addressed directly the unrest will continue and the insistence of the staunch “Zimmerman supporters” that nothing is wrong denies the hard earned anguish of an entire community of people.

As for the case and this article, I interpreted his article as trying to highlight the fact that while there are many valid issues that need further discussion that have been forced into the spotlight because of this case , further discussion of those issues within the context of this case will not get us anywhere.
 
For example; inequities in the justice system, the realities of racial profiling, the racism that still exists in our country and how it inhibits truly equal opportunity, the flaws in the stand your ground, the problems of drugs and violence in African American communities, frustrations with affirmative action.

I suggest you start a thread on any one of those topics and spare us the pathetic rhetoric article cited in the OP when you do so.
 
I suggest you start a thread on any one of those topics and spare us the pathetic rhetoric article cited in the OP when you do so.

You're invitation encourages me.
 
The only change of discussion I would like is for media to stop presenting TM as the all American hero worthy of praise and honor when in fact he was thief, user, gang banging, THUG. Once we can be honest about this kids place in the world we can have honest discussions about encouraging young people to call the police, ask for help, and be respectful of others. Until then any discussion about this case is race baiting and pathetic.

Before you can have a conversation, you need facts, and you won't get them from the New York Times, the Washington Post, or any other so-called "mainstream" media outlet. They've been completely AWOL when it comes to honest reporting, and it's one of the most disturbing aspects of this whole fiasco. For example, who were the other three people at the 7-Eleven while Trayvon was there? (Trayvon walks in first, but doesn't leave until after the Three Stooges leave. Why?) All we've heard from the mainstream media are reports of a "child" who went to buy candy and iced tea. We've heard nothing about "lean" or "blunts" or why the Arizona Watermelon Fruit Juice Cocktail he purchased at the 7-Eleven magically morphed into iced tea. Why did it take Trayvon forty minutes to complete a distance that should have taken ten minutes? What did he do during that interval? Did he really posses stolen jewelry in his locker at school? Did he really punch a school bus driver? How many times was he suspended from school and for what? More to the point, was this "child" high or really "up to no good" the night he was fatally shot? And what, praytell, motivates any thinking person to try to equate thuggery with Martin Luther King? All I can do is say a prayer for them.
 
Gee, how many more what ifs, mights, maybes, coulda, woulda, shouldas can there be.
 
The point at which I part company with many who call themselves Zimmerman supporters (I do not call myself a TM supporter) is that I think, whether you see the connection or not, for many many people this case brought several legitimate frustrations to the surface. For example; inequities in the justice system, the realities of racial profiling, the racism that still exists in our country and how it inhibits truly equal opportunity, the flaws in the stand your ground, the problems of drugs and violence in African American communities, frustrations with affirmative action. These are the issues that have been smoldering under the surface for some time. This case was like the final straw. It could have been any case. It was just time because to much frustration and pain had accumulated.

That's great, and we can have these discussions, but before anyone venerates Trayvon or makes him a poster child for a cause he should do his due diligence. So far it looks to me that thinking a guy wandering around and staring at houses on a rainy night might be up to no good is perfectly reasonable. I think a better use of indignation would be to take a closer look at the 279,384 blacks who were murdered in this country between 1976 and 2011, especially the 262,621 who were murdered by other blacks.

Should Black People Tolerate This? | CNS News
 
That's great, and we can have these discussions, but before anyone venerates Trayvon or makes him a poster child for a cause he should do his due diligence. So far it looks to me that thinking a guy wandering around and staring at houses on a rainy night might be up to no good is perfectly reasonable. I think a better use of indignation would be to take a closer look at the 279,384 blacks who were murdered in this country between 1976 and 2011, especially the 262,621 who were murdered by other blacks.

Should Black People Tolerate This? | CNS News


Happy to discuss the social issues this trial brought to the forefront of debate but not willing to debate whether or not Trayvon is WORTHY. Not relevant.
 
Awesome.
First of all, I will be a complete hypocrite and say this one thing about the verdict, I understand and accept it.

The point at which I part company with many who call themselves Zimmerman supporters (I do not call myself a TM supporter) is that I think, whether you see the connection or not, for many many people this case brought several legitimate frustrations to the surface. For example; inequities in the justice system, the realities of racial profiling, the racism that still exists in our country and how it inhibits truly equal opportunity, the flaws in the stand your ground, the problems of drugs and violence in African American communities, frustrations with affirmative action. These are the issues that have been smoldering under the surface for some time. This case was like the final straw. It could have been any case. It was just time because to much frustration and pain had accumulated.

I have seen these issues discussed in some other forums but they always seem to degenerate into a discussion about the case again. It seems to me that until they are addressed directly the unrest will continue and the insistence of the staunch “Zimmerman supporters” that nothing is wrong denies the hard earned anguish of an entire community of people.

As for the case and this article, I interpreted his article as trying to highlight the fact that while there are many valid issues that need further discussion that have been forced into the spotlight because of this case , further discussion of those issues within the context of this case will not get us anywhere.

I think you're highlighting exactly why this is a circular conversation. You want to talk about the injustice of someone like Zimmerman going free after he's killed someone in self-defense. I want to talk about why he wasn't given a medal for looking out for his neighbors. It's not that I'm denying there's anything wrong with race relations, I'm just denying there's anything wrong with killing someone who is perpetrating an assault on you. I'm perfectly happy to talk about racial injustice and what we can do to help it go the way of the dodo.

How about we start with racial profiling? First off, what exactly does the term mean to you? Then, why do you think it happens and what can we do as a society to make it go away?
 
I think you're highlighting exactly why this is a circular conversation. You want to talk about the injustice of someone like Zimmerman going free after he's killed someone in self-defense. I want to talk about why he wasn't given a medal for looking out for his neighbors. It's not that I'm denying there's anything wrong with race relations, I'm just denying there's anything wrong with killing someone who is perpetrating an assault on you. I'm perfectly happy to talk about racial injustice and what we can do to help it go the way of the dodo.

How about we start with racial profiling? First off, what exactly does the term mean to you? Then, why do you think it happens and what can we do as a society to make it go away?


You are mistaken, I don't want to talk about someone like Zimmerman. These issues exist and can be discussed completely outside of this case.

what exactly does the term mean to you?:
When law enforcement suspects someone based on their skin color or ethnicity.

Look, I respect police officers and I think they have an incredibly difficult job on their hands. I also am not so prejudice myself as to think that every police officer does it excessively or that those who do, do it only because they are racist aholes. I am certain they have reason that is often based on experience, but police officers have an obligation to stay objective because they are an extension of the law. And it is not the practice in this country to subject innocent people to persecution because of the behavior of a few.

Ready to tear me a new one?
 
You are mistaken, I don't want to talk about someone like Zimmerman. These issues exist and can be discussed completely outside of this case.

what exactly does the term mean to you?:
When law enforcement suspects someone based on their skin color or ethnicity.

Look, I respect police officers and I think they have an incredibly difficult job on their hands. I also am not so prejudice myself as to think that every police officer does it excessively or that those who do, do it only because they are racist aholes. I am certain they have reason that is often based on experience, but police officers have an obligation to stay objective because they are an extension of the law. And it is not the practice in this country to subject innocent people to persecution because of the behavior of a few.

Ready to tear me a new one?

Why would I tear you a new one over that? I do think we might have differing opinions on what "persecution" means, but maybe not. If there have been reports of an early 20's hispanic male suspect in the area, would you consider it racial profiling for a police officer who is looking for the suspect to bypass anyone who doesn't fit that discription? Personally, I would, although I don't believe it's wrong in that case.
 
Why would I tear you a new one over that? I do think we might have differing opinions on what "persecution" means, but maybe not. If there have been reports of an early 20's hispanic male suspect in the area, would you consider it racial profiling for a police officer who is looking for the suspect to bypass anyone who doesn't fit that discription? Personally, I would, although I don't believe it's wrong in that case.

Sorry then, I have been conditioned to anticipate tearage on this site. Does this mean I profiled you.

I guess I don't think of it as profiling. It seems, in this case, his ethnicity is like any other detail that helps to identify someone who we know has committed a crime. Because the definition of racial profiling is when you suspect someone based purely on their race or ethnicity it seems to me to not fit the criteria. Why do you think it does? Am I missing something?
 
Sorry then, I have been conditioned to anticipate tearage on this site. Does this mean I profiled you.

I guess I don't think of it as profiling. It seems, in this case, his ethnicity is like any other detail that helps to identify someone who we know has committed a crime. Because the definition of racial profiling is when you suspect someone based purely on their race or ethnicity it seems to me to not fit the criteria. Why do you think it does? Am I missing something?

People build profiles in their heads all the time with all sorts of things. I have a profile for people who drive a prius. I have a profile for certain parts of certain towns. Most of us would never be able to function if we didn't do this. I would agree that building a profile of a person where you suspect them to be a criminal based purely on race or ethnicity is wrong and would be completely ineffective. How many instances of this happening have you heard of in the last 10-20 years? There probably are a few, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure the one or two that do come to mind were in movies or TV shows that I saw.
 
People build profiles in their heads all the time with all sorts of things. I have a profile for people who drive a prius. I have a profile for certain parts of certain towns. Most of us would never be able to function if we didn't do this. I would agree that building a profile of a person where you suspect them to be a criminal based purely on race or ethnicity is wrong and would be completely ineffective. How many instances of this happening have you heard of in the last 10-20 years? There probably are a few, but I can't think of any off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure the one or two that do come to mind were in movies or TV shows that I saw.

Excellent point and I agree 100%, we all profile. As a woman, I have to to keep myself safe.


As for real instances of racial profiling, it is my understanding that it happens all the time. Let's say you are a young black man with a group of white friends, you are walking through a store, or driving or something relatively innocent and the group goes it's separate ways, but you are selected out of the group to be followed isn't that profiling? If you are driving through a park or down the street, following the traffic law and you are the only car they chose to follow....isn't that profiling.
 
Excellent point and I agree 100%, we all profile. As a woman, I have to to keep myself safe.


As for real instances of racial profiling, it is my understanding that it happens all the time. Let's say you are a young black man with a group of white friends, you are walking through a store, or driving or something relatively innocent and the group goes it's separate ways, but you are selected out of the group to be followed isn't that profiling? If you are driving through a park or down the street, following the traffic law and you are the only car they chose to follow....isn't that profiling.
Probably, but unless the cops stop you and treats you like a criminal, I wouldn't say it's necessarily wrong.
 
Probably, but unless the cops stop you and treats you like a criminal, I wouldn't say it's necessarily wrong.

Point taken, but that is what I am saying happens on a regular basis.
 
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