• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

Now This Is Interesting............................

Where is Zimmerman?

Where is Martin?

The prosecution tore Zimmerman a new one in the summation. Bottom line he was not to follow and he did. He was not to confront Martin and he did. The time line on the phone calls makes a case for the state. Also.....the lawyer pointed out that using Zimmerman's own statements to the police Martin would have had to have three sets of arms and hands to take care of the slamming, punching, smothering that was going on and at the same time manage to take hold of Zimmerman's gun when his knees were under Zimmerman's arm pits the way he described it. The gun was concealed in a holster between Zimmerman's right side back pocket and the center of his back. Trayvon Martin would have required X Ray vision to have even seen it.
 
Moderator's Warning:
All Zimmerman/Martin posts go in the subforum
 
Well, we all now know what happens when a black teen with a decent background who masquerades as a gangsta runs into a white trigger happy bully in the dark, don't we? Like we really needed a demo to discover what happens when a lit match is introduced to gas vapor. If he gets convicted I say good riddance to two idiot monkey sh*ts.
 
You most certainly did determine what George Zimmerman believed, you stated it as fact, and have nothing (unless you possess God like powers) to prove what you said was factual when in fact its opinion and a pathetic one at that.

By the way you carry a gun? Do you have a license to conceal? Are you a police officer? Because I do carry every day and I never take my firearm out with an ounce of belief I'm going out to kill someone as you suggested Zimmerman was - that's just crazy and actually crazy ignorant.


I'm not "determining what someone else believes".

I'm making a case, really only for my own benefit (though I'm sharing it here for conversation's sake), for how I perceive George Zimmerman's history of behavior leading up to his shooting of Trayvon Martin.

You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation of events and I honestly don't care if you do.

But if you're argument is that anyone infering intent or mindset from behavioral history is "acting like God" you're a little bit off your rocker.

Since you mentioned elsewhere that you teach something to cops (I have no idea what, and frankly I don't care to know) so let's take a hypothetical.

If cops are responding to a domestic violence call and the subject they're going to investigate has a history of gun crimes would those cops be better served by taking additional precautions for their own safety, say, as opposed to safety concerns they might have when reporting to a little girl's call to help get her cat out of a tree, or would they be "playing God" by infering some potential threat in that situation that they have no evidence is clearly and immediately present?

See what I mean?

What I'm doing here is something we all do every day.

What's more, it's something that the Zimmerman jury is going to be called upon to do in the next couple of days here as they analyze the evidence that's been presented to them in its totality and attempt to arrive at some kind of verdict.

Do you think they're going to be instructed to disregard all of the testimony of the character wittnesses that were called by the defense?

After all, George Zimmerman being friendly with a black woman isn't clear and compelling proof that he wasn't acting with some degree of bias the night he shot Martin.

To make the assumption that his past relationships have any bearing on the manner in which he viewed Martin on the night of the shooting would require the jury to resort to some degree of "playing God".

Your argument is just silly.

Our behavior says something about who we are. Our history says something about who we are. Our reputations say something about who we are.

As I have Zimmerman's jury is going to have to take all of that into consideration.
 
Sorry brother, but I don't believe in God or any other fairy tales.
You appear to believe in your own 'fairy tails'. Look dude. We've had dozens of you come and leave over the last year plus. Now there are maybe three 'T-Boners' left. If you aren't bringing anything here at this point but your own silly narratives that are at least some what original do us all a favor.
 
I disagree.

I think the evidence clearly demonstrates that George Zimmerman strapped on a gun and walked out his door for the express purpose of looking for trouble.

I don't think he walked out the door looking to kill anyone, I don't even think he walked out the door looking to shoot anyone.

But I think it's clear that he has some strange hero predilection and when the police department he applied to declined his application (I would have to assume for cause) and the security guard job he had fired him for being overly aggressive he set his sites on a completley unregulated and unsupervised channel through which to scratch his wanna-be law enforcement/authority figure itch - self-appointed community watch captain.

So ol' George was out there with his gun on his hip stalking the neighborhood like he was Wyatt Berry Stapp Earp looking for a cattle rustler (or teenaged kid, any port in a storm) to "bring to justice.

When he saw one he aggressively pursued the kid, in the rain, in the dark of night, and I would have to believe he scared the daylights out of the poor kid. I mean, how does this kid know that Zimmerman is the wanna-be block watch? He didn't identify himself in any way. He just crept around in the dark. I have to put myself in Martin's place and if I were a 17-year-old kid today and some middle aged guy was stalking me through the neighborhood in the dark of night my first inclination certainly wouldn't be that "Hmmm, must be the neighborhood watch". I'd think he was a murderer, a rapist, a kidnapper, whatever, something along those lines. Because let's face it, well adjusted grown men don't drive around at night looking for kids to stalk.

So Zimmerman pursued Martin, but Martin was able to get away.

It would seem as though Martin went so far as to hide in the bushes to escape from this nutcase, or at least that's what would had to have happened if Martin was later to have attacked Zimmerman from ambush.

But the only way Martin would have been in a position to have ambushed Zimmerman would be if Zimmerman had reestablished (or at least maintained, but I think there's evidence that he broke it off for a while) his pursuit.

So, after having evaded what he must have though was some kind of criminal stalker (because, again, Zimmerman hadn't identified himself in any way to the contrary), and after having thought he actually lost the guy, here comes Zimmerman again walking up the sidewalk or across the grass, creeping around, peering into dark corners, obviously still looking for Martin.

At this point Martin says to himself, "You know what? Enough off this running away. I'm going to stand my ground."

And he does.

But Zimmerman has a gun, and as we all know you don't bring a pair of fists to a gun fight.

So despite doing his best (as best as any 17-year-old kid could do) to protect and defend himself from an adult who was acting in a manner completely inconsistent with every adult I know (and probably every adult Martin knew) Martin wound up getting shot and killed.

Not "murdered" mind you. I don't think, and never have thought, that Zimmerman murdered Martin (in any degree).

But Zimmerman's culpable negligence put him in a position where a young, dumb, and full of cum 17-year-old kid thought that his only way out was to fight for his life.

If Zimmerman doesn't strap on the gun, leave the house for the express purpose of playing Junior Assistant Police Officer, doesn't (completely inexplicably) stalk a young kid through the neighborhood, in the rain, at night, doesn't fail identify himself in any way, then no shooting occurs.

Zimmerman recklessly acting without reasonable caution put Martin in a position where he was at risk of injury or death.

And that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is culpable negligence. That is manslaughter.

I rest my case.

782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself
or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.



Tying this all together in a rebuttle of your fantasy:
GZ had the absolute argument to self-defense. Regardless of the circumstances prior to the altercation, which are based entirely off unproven and unsupported assumptions, and regardless of who initiated the confrontation, GZ's claim to self-defense remains valid in the defense against the charge of Murder 2 along with the lesser charge of manslaughter.

GZ did not fight back against TM once the confrontation started, as evidenced by the lack of injury on TM's body excluding the gunshot wound. Evidence shows that GZ was taking a beating to both the front and back of the head in a manner which would create a reasonable fear of imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Even with this fear, GZ exhausted the only option he had to prevent the use of force: he screamed for 40 seconds, pleading with neighbors for help. None came. Finally, as a last resort to prevent the great bodily harm and death he, reasonably, feared was coming considering the assault, brandished his firearm and shot a single time to the chest of TM. Unfortunately, this shot killed him. Even if GZ provoked the attack, and let me take the moment to exclaim strongly that there is no evidence whatsoever that he did anything to warrant being assaulted, once the confrontation started he exhausted every possible alternative he had before finally resolving to use deadly force to prevent himself from being the ultimate victim.

The prosecution's arguments, and I'm being generous not calling them fantasies, are based purely on assumption and speculation. The evidence tells a different story. A man found himself in a confrontation where he was helpless. He had no control over the beating he was recieving. Testimony has shown that GZ was not a fighter, his trainer would not even feel safe putting him in a sparring ring despite months of training. Still, even in fear he took 40 seconds, which by the expert's testimony could reasonably have felt to him like 10 minutes, to scream for help while being beaten MMA style and having his head shoved into the concrete. Under Florida law, jurors must weigh the EVIDENCE of the case. That evidence supports the fact that GZ lawfully defended himself with deadly force against someone who he had a reasonable fear would cause him great injury after exhausting all other options to extracate himself from the situation. This should lead the jury to the conclusion that, regardless of the unfounded claims that GZ provoked the controntation, they must return a verdict of not guilty of all charges by way of self-defense. The law is the law, the evidence is the evidence, and in consideration of that GZ is innocent of both Murder 2 and Manslaughter. I ask that you consider the law and the evidence provided to you and come back with the only reasonable, logical, and fair judgement of finding George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges.

Thank you, I rest my case.
 
Because Zimmerman slaughtered a kid...a 17 year old kid. A cop wannabe followed and slaughtered a kid.
Quick! Call Bernie! Tell him George actually intended to cut T up and stick him in the freezer!
 
I'm not "determining what someone else believes".

I'm making a case, really only for my own benefit (though I'm sharing it here for conversation's sake), for how I perceive George Zimmerman's history of behavior leading up to his shooting of Trayvon Martin.

You're welcome to disagree with my interpretation of events and I honestly don't care if you do.

But if you're argument is that anyone infering intent or mindset from behavioral history is "acting like God" you're a little bit off your rocker.

Since you mentioned elsewhere that you teach something to cops (I have no idea what, and frankly I don't care to know) so let's take a hypothetical.

If cops are responding to a domestic violence call and the subject they're going to investigate has a history of gun crimes would those cops be better served by taking additional precautions for their own safety, say, as opposed to safety concerns they might have when reporting to a little girl's call to help get her cat out of a tree, or would they be "playing God" by infering some potential threat in that situation that they have no evidence is clearly and immediately present?

See what I mean?

What I'm doing here is something we all do every day.

What's more, it's something that the Zimmerman jury is going to be called upon to do in the next couple of days here as they analyze the evidence that's been presented to them in its totality and attempt to arrive at some kind of verdict.

Do you think they're going to be instructed to disregard all of the testimony of the character wittnesses that were called by the defense?

After all, George Zimmerman being friendly with a black woman isn't clear and compelling proof that he wasn't acting with some degree of bias the night he shot Martin.

To make the assumption that his past relationships have any bearing on the manner in which he viewed Martin on the night of the shooting would require the jury to resort to some degree of "playing God".

Your argument is just silly.

Our behavior says something about who we are. Our history says something about who we are. Our reputations say something about who we are.

As I have Zimmerman's jury is going to have to take all of that into consideration.
You already posted that you have "rested your case" dude. Like bye.
 
Well, we all now know what happens when a black teen with a decent background who masquerades as a gangsta runs into a white trigger happy bully in the dark, don't we? Like we really needed a demo to discover what happens when a lit match is introduced to gas vapor. If he gets convicted I say good riddance to two idiot monkey sh*ts.

Just curious......have you ever had a 17 year old son or daughter? I've had three plus four grandchildren who have passed 17. That low down cop wannabe is lucky he didn't kill one of mine for doing what? Walking home from a convenient store on a Sunday evening at 7:00 PM. That four months before they arrested that son-of-a-bitch would have been ample time to make his cowardly ass sorry he had done it if it had been mine.
 
Last edited:
I disagree.

I think the evidence clearly demonstrates that George Zimmerman strapped on a gun and walked out his door for the express purpose of looking for trouble.

I don't think he walked out the door looking to kill anyone, I don't even think he walked out the door looking to shoot anyone.

But I think it's clear that he has some strange hero predilection and when the police department he applied to declined his application (I would have to assume for cause) and the security guard job he had fired him for being overly aggressive he set his sites on a completley unregulated and unsupervised channel through which to scratch his wanna-be law enforcement/authority figure itch - self-appointed community watch captain.

So ol' George was out there with his gun on his hip stalking the neighborhood like he was Wyatt Berry Stapp Earp looking for a cattle rustler (or teenaged kid, any port in a storm) to "bring to justice.

When he saw one he aggressively pursued the kid, in the rain, in the dark of night, and I would have to believe he scared the daylights out of the poor kid. I mean, how does this kid know that Zimmerman is the wanna-be block watch? He didn't identify himself in any way. He just crept around in the dark. I have to put myself in Martin's place and if I were a 17-year-old kid today and some middle aged guy was stalking me through the neighborhood in the dark of night my first inclination certainly wouldn't be that "Hmmm, must be the neighborhood watch". I'd think he was a murderer, a rapist, a kidnapper, whatever, something along those lines. Because let's face it, well adjusted grown men don't drive around at night looking for kids to stalk.

So Zimmerman pursued Martin, but Martin was able to get away.

It would seem as though Martin went so far as to hide in the bushes to escape from this nutcase, or at least that's what would had to have happened if Martin was later to have attacked Zimmerman from ambush.

But the only way Martin would have been in a position to have ambushed Zimmerman would be if Zimmerman had reestablished (or at least maintained, but I think there's evidence that he broke it off for a while) his pursuit.

So, after having evaded what he must have though was some kind of criminal stalker (because, again, Zimmerman hadn't identified himself in any way to the contrary), and after having thought he actually lost the guy, here comes Zimmerman again walking up the sidewalk or across the grass, creeping around, peering into dark corners, obviously still looking for Martin.

At this point Martin says to himself, "You know what? Enough off this running away. I'm going to stand my ground."

And he does.

But Zimmerman has a gun, and as we all know you don't bring a pair of fists to a gun fight.

So despite doing his best (as best as any 17-year-old kid could do) to protect and defend himself from an adult who was acting in a manner completely inconsistent with every adult I know (and probably every adult Martin knew) Martin wound up getting shot and killed.

Not "murdered" mind you. I don't think, and never have thought, that Zimmerman murdered Martin (in any degree).

But Zimmerman's culpable negligence put him in a position where a young, dumb, and full of cum 17-year-old kid thought that his only way out was to fight for his life.

If Zimmerman doesn't strap on the gun, leave the house for the express purpose of playing Junior Assistant Police Officer, doesn't (completely inexplicably) stalk a young kid through the neighborhood, in the rain, at night, doesn't fail identify himself in any way, then no shooting occurs.

Zimmerman recklessly acting without reasonable caution put Martin in a position where he was at risk of injury or death.

And that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is culpable negligence. That is manslaughter.

I rest my case.

Your case is based on a false narrative.
You got nothing.
 
I disagree.

I think the evidence clearly demonstrates that George Zimmerman strapped on a gun and walked out his door for the express purpose of looking for trouble.

I don't think he walked out the door looking to kill anyone, I don't even think he walked out the door looking to shoot anyone.

But I think it's clear that he has some strange hero predilection and when the police department he applied to declined his application (I would have to assume for cause) and the security guard job he had fired him for being overly aggressive he set his sites on a completley unregulated and unsupervised channel through which to scratch his wanna-be law enforcement/authority figure itch - self-appointed community watch captain.

So ol' George was out there with his gun on his hip stalking the neighborhood like he was Wyatt Berry Stapp Earp looking for a cattle rustler (or teenaged kid, any port in a storm) to "bring to justice.

When he saw one he aggressively pursued the kid, in the rain, in the dark of night, and I would have to believe he scared the daylights out of the poor kid. I mean, how does this kid know that Zimmerman is the wanna-be block watch? He didn't identify himself in any way. He just crept around in the dark. I have to put myself in Martin's place and if I were a 17-year-old kid today and some middle aged guy was stalking me through the neighborhood in the dark of night my first inclination certainly wouldn't be that "Hmmm, must be the neighborhood watch". I'd think he was a murderer, a rapist, a kidnapper, whatever, something along those lines. Because let's face it, well adjusted grown men don't drive around at night looking for kids to stalk.

So Zimmerman pursued Martin, but Martin was able to get away.

It would seem as though Martin went so far as to hide in the bushes to escape from this nutcase, or at least that's what would had to have happened if Martin was later to have attacked Zimmerman from ambush.

But the only way Martin would have been in a position to have ambushed Zimmerman would be if Zimmerman had reestablished (or at least maintained, but I think there's evidence that he broke it off for a while) his pursuit.

So, after having evaded what he must have though was some kind of criminal stalker (because, again, Zimmerman hadn't identified himself in any way to the contrary), and after having thought he actually lost the guy, here comes Zimmerman again walking up the sidewalk or across the grass, creeping around, peering into dark corners, obviously still looking for Martin.

At this point Martin says to himself, "You know what? Enough off this running away. I'm going to stand my ground."

And he does.

But Zimmerman has a gun, and as we all know you don't bring a pair of fists to a gun fight.

So despite doing his best (as best as any 17-year-old kid could do) to protect and defend himself from an adult who was acting in a manner completely inconsistent with every adult I know (and probably every adult Martin knew) Martin wound up getting shot and killed.

Not "murdered" mind you. I don't think, and never have thought, that Zimmerman murdered Martin (in any degree).

But Zimmerman's culpable negligence put him in a position where a young, dumb, and full of cum 17-year-old kid thought that his only way out was to fight for his life.

If Zimmerman doesn't strap on the gun, leave the house for the express purpose of playing Junior Assistant Police Officer, doesn't (completely inexplicably) stalk a young kid through the neighborhood, in the rain, at night, doesn't fail identify himself in any way, then no shooting occurs.

Zimmerman recklessly acting without reasonable caution put Martin in a position where he was at risk of injury or death.

And that, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, is culpable negligence. That is manslaughter.

I rest my case.

I'll give you a break because of your ignorance on the matter

Define culpable negligence and show, the evidence
 
Just curious......have you ever had a 17 year old son or daughter? I've had three plus four grandchildren who have passed 17. That low down cop wannabe is lucky he didn't kill one of mine for doing what? Walking home from a convenient store on a Sunday evening at 7:00 PM. That four months before they arrested that son-of-a-bitch would have been ample time to make his cowardly ass sorry he had done it if it had been mine.

How many of your kin, at 17, would have assaulted someone? Like Treyvon did?

How many of them would have knocked a man to the ground and then tried to beat him to death with their bare hands, just because he followed them and asked them a question?

I'll tell you something, NO ONE in my family would take such actions. Thank God.

If they were stupid enough to do so, I would expect them to face justice.
 
Last edited:
782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself
or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.



Tying this all together in a rebuttle of your fantasy:
GZ had the absolute argument to self-defense. Regardless of the circumstances prior to the altercation, which are based entirely off unproven and unsupported assumptions, and regardless of who initiated the confrontation, GZ's claim to self-defense remains valid in the defense against the charge of Murder 2 along with the lesser charge of manslaughter.

GZ did not fight back against TM once the confrontation started, as evidenced by the lack of injury on TM's body excluding the gunshot wound. Evidence shows that GZ was taking a beating to both the front and back of the head in a manner which would create a reasonable fear of imminent danger of death or great bodily harm. Even with this fear, GZ exhausted the only option he had to prevent the use of force: he screamed for 40 seconds, pleading with neighbors for help. None came. Finally, as a last resort to prevent the great bodily harm and death he, reasonably, feared was coming considering the assault, brandished his firearm and shot a single time to the chest of TM. Unfortunately, this shot killed him. Even if GZ provoked the attack, and let me take the moment to exclaim strongly that there is no evidence whatsoever that he did anything to warrant being assaulted, once the confrontation started he exhausted every possible alternative he had before finally resolving to use deadly force to prevent himself from being the ultimate victim.

The prosecution's arguments, and I'm being generous not calling them fantasies, are based purely on assumption and speculation. The evidence tells a different story. A man found himself in a confrontation where he was helpless. He had no control over the beating he was recieving. Testimony has shown that GZ was not a fighter, his trainer would not even feel safe putting him in a sparring ring despite months of training. Still, even in fear he took 40 seconds, which by the expert's testimony could reasonably have felt to him like 10 minutes, to scream for help while being beaten MMA style and having his head shoved into the concrete. Under Florida law, jurors must weigh the EVIDENCE of the case. That evidence supports the fact that GZ lawfully defended himself with deadly force against someone who he had a reasonable fear would cause him great injury after exhausting all other options to extracate himself from the situation. This should lead the jury to the conclusion that, regardless of the unfounded claims that GZ provoked the controntation, they must return a verdict of not guilty of all charges by way of self-defense. The law is the law, the evidence is the evidence, and in consideration of that GZ is innocent of both Murder 2 and Manslaughter. I ask that you consider the law and the evidence provided to you and come back with the only reasonable, logical, and fair judgement of finding George Zimmerman not guilty on all charges.


Thank you, I rest my case.

Fantastic job dude. The jury finds no need to deliberate. Not guilty.
 
Just curious......have you ever had a 17 year old son or daughter? I've had three plus four grandchildren who have passed 17. That low down cop wannabe is lucky he didn't kill one of mine for doing what? Walking home from a convenient store on a Sunday evening at 7:00 PM. That four months before they arrested that son-of-a-bitch would have been ample time to make his cowardly ass sorry he had done it if it had been mine.

Yes I do. I agree with your assessment of Z and I believe M was minding his own business when confronted. However, I believe he got aggressive when confronted. Did he deserve to be shot? Hell no but I don't believe it would have happened if hadn't gotten physical with the armed idiot. So yes I have had two 17 year olds but they never were the type to become physical with someone unless they had to defend themselves from physical aggression. How about yours? Just curious.
 
Back
Top Bottom