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Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?[W:36]

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Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

Yes, I know it's not over. Yes, I know there's more evidence to be shown. Yes, I know. :)

Just based on what you've seen so far in this trial, which way are you leaning?
Not guilty of any charges. This is the position I've held since the beginning, and there's been no reason to change it, no new evidence, nothing. I say Z walks.

And let the morons who would riot do so. I only hope my unit calls me up to help quell it. No citizen has the right to riot.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

Yes, I know it's not over. Yes, I know there's more evidence to be shown. Yes, I know. :)

Just based on what you've seen so far in this trial, which way are you leaning?

It depends on one thing with me. That is where the legal line for self defense falls. Does he have to create reasonable doubt that he killed in self defense, which i think he has done. Or does he have to have more of a preponderance of evidence that the killing was in self defense which from what i have seen it isn't. Of course, that is going by florida's stand your ground craziness. If it were another state I would say guilty because he provoked the altercation which lead to the shooting and florida doesn't count his antagonistic attitude and his obvious creation of the problem as part of the crime. On that technicality he could really get off at this point.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

It depends on one thing with me. That is where the legal line for self defense falls. Does he have to create reasonable doubt that he killed in self defense, which i think he has done. Or does he have to have more of a preponderance of evidence that the killing was in self defense which from what i have seen it isn't. Of course, that is going by florida's stand your ground craziness. If it were another state I would say guilty because he provoked the altercation which lead to the shooting and florida doesn't count his antagonistic attitude and his obvious creation of the problem as part of the crime. On that technicality he could really get off at this point.

The burden of proof has nothing to do with SYG law. Everywhere in the country, the prosecution (the state) must prove their case.

Are you seriously thinking that one must prove their innocence, except in SYG cases?
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

Not guilty of any charges. This is the position I've held since the beginning, and there's been no reason to change it, no new evidence, nothing. I say Z walks.

And let the morons who would riot do so. I only hope my unit calls me up to help quell it. No citizen has the right to riot.

I have to disagree. if you take a person's life you should at least have to defend that action in court. I have no problem with using self defense as a reason, but the police and prosecutors are not a judge and jury and should not be acting as one. It is not as if they did not have enough evidence to know he killed martin because he admits to that. Since we know he was the killer we should have a trial to see if it is justified. That is really all I ever thought should come out of this.

I also think that part of the problem of why he will never really be free even if he is found innocent is because of the way they tried to just toss the case out. Had they just arrested him and gave him his day in court to deal with all of this there would have been so much less crazy involved in it. Instead they thumbed their nose at the victim and it gave a real impression of racism. If you are going to claim you acted within the law on taking someone's life, there should be no problem in facing a jury on that matter. It is a person's life and it should not be brushed off like it was nothing.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

The burden of proof has nothing to do with SYG law. Everywhere in the country, the prosecution (the state) must prove their case.

Are you seriously thinking that one must prove their innocence, except in SYG cases?

That is the problem with your logic and why the definition matters. He did the act. He is already guilty of killing treyvon. They are not proving he did that as in a normal trial where there is doubt in whether or not the defendant committed the crime, and that is why self defense may be different in a legal sense. But please do direct me to where it is explained in florida state law as your opinion is not good enough for me.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

That is the problem with your logic and why the definition matters. He did the act. He is already guilty of killing treyvon. They are not proving he did that as in a normal trial where there is doubt in whether or not the defendant committed the crime, and that is why self defense may be different in a legal sense. But please do direct me to where it is explained in florida state law as your opinion is not good enough for me.

It's not Florida law. It's everywhere in the sane world law. No one must prove their innocence in a criminal case.
 
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Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

It's not Florida law. It's everywhere in the sane world law. No one must prove their innocence in a criminal case.

You are really not getting it. he has admitted to killing treyvon. He is guilty of murder and now has to prove it was justified. There is no reasonable doubt he did not kill treyvon. The burden of proof falls upon him to prove it was justified because he has already admitted to the crime. He is not innocent of killing treyvon, and this trial has nothing to do with that. The only debate was whether or not it was a justified killing.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

You are really not getting it. he has admitted to killing treyvon. He is guilty of murder and now has to prove it was justified. There is no reasonable doubt he did not kill treyvon. The burden of proof falls upon him to prove it was justified because he has already admitted to the crime. He is not innocent of killing treyvon, and this trial has nothing to do with that. The only debate was whether or not it was a justified killing.

I'm stunned you believe that he is "guilty of murder" and has "already admitted to the crime". I suppose that kind of thinking explains much of the BS everyone had to endure in the run-up to this trial. Fortunately, that's all done now and those harboring bizarre notions of the legal system can go back to other things.



This case is over. Z will not be testifying. He should not have been arrested, SYG protocol stands.
 
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Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

I'm stunned you believe that he is "guilty of murder" and has "already admitted to the crime". I suppose that kind of thinking explains much of the BS everyone had to endure in the run-up to this trial. Fortunately, that's all done now and those harboring bizarre notions of the legal system can go back to other things.

he did murder treyvon. Even he admits to that fact. The only argument is his affirmative defense that he was permitted to do it because of stand your ground. Even if he is found not guilty because he was defending himself he still killed treyvon. In reality he deserves what he is getting right now because he could have just stayed put and waited for the police so i have no sympathy for him. Still, have fun with your arguments. I have put about as much effort into this as i am willing to with a person of your calliber so either come up with something new or have at the last word.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

Moderator's Warning:
Let's remember to keep things civil alright.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

You are really not getting it. he has admitted to killing treyvon. He is guilty of murder and now has to prove it was justified. There is no reasonable doubt he did not kill treyvon. The burden of proof falls upon him to prove it was justified because he has already admitted to the crime. He is not innocent of killing treyvon, and this trial has nothing to do with that. The only debate was whether or not it was a justified killing.
:doh
You are mixing things up and in doing so you are wrong.

He is not guilty of murder.
He is not even guilty of a crime.
No crime has even been shown to have occurred yet.



he did murder treyvon. Even he admits to that fact. The only argument is his affirmative defense that he was permitted to do it because of stand your ground. Even if he is found not guilty because he was defending himself he still killed treyvon. In reality he deserves what he is getting right now because he could have just stayed put and waited for the police so i have no sympathy for him. Still, have fun with your arguments. I have put about as much effort into this as i am willing to with a person of your calliber so either come up with something new or have at the last word.
Your interpretation of what happened, as well as of the law, is non existent.

He did not murder . He killed him. Killing is not murder unless proven under law. (Which is what they are attempting to do now.)
He admits to killing him in self defense.

The Burden of Proof is on the Prosecution.
Always has been, always will be.
The Prosecution must prove all the elements of the charge. Period.

The defenses burden is to make a showing of evidence to support a claim of self defense to generate a jury instruction of "self-defense".


Zimmerman only has to make a showing.

The Prosecutors burden is to prove he did not act in self-defense.

Even O'Mara has said as much in his interviews.

The burden of proof is on the prosecution, not the defense.

Presenting an affirmative defense offers no relief to the government in what they
must prove. Patterson v. New York, 432 U.S. 197 (1977). Rather, if the defense
generates an affirmative defense, the government must then disprove the defense
generally beyond a reasonable doubt. Mullaney, 421 U.S. at 704; U.S. v. Jackson,
569 F.2d 1003, 1008 n.12 (7th Cir. 1978)(emphasis added).

Pay attention this time as you obviously didn't before.
From what I previously provided, specifically speaking about the burdens.
(I formatted it differently so maybe you could understand it this time.)

UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES
Code:
[B][COLOR="#000000"]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/COLOR][/B][SIZE=1]

[...]

[/SIZE][B][COLOR="#000000"]D. Burdens[/COLOR][/B]
The term “affirmative defense” seems inextricably tied to arguments about burden shifting.
Three different burdens exist; 
[INDENT][COLOR="#0000ff"][U][COLOR="#000000"][B]burden of proof[/B] (always on the government),[/COLOR][/U][/COLOR]
[B][COLOR="#000000"]burden of production[/COLOR][/B] (normally on the defense),and 
[B][COLOR="#000000"]burden of persuasion[/COLOR][/B] (normally back on the government).[/INDENT]
The burden of proof to prove the essential elements of the crime charged BRD starts with
and[highlight] [COLOR="#000000"]ALWAYS stays with the Government[/COLOR][/highlight].
The burden of production to generate an affirmative defense is on the defense.
This is constitutional because the defense is not negating an essential element of the crime charged.
The standard, meaning the quantum of evidence needed, varies with the particular affirmative defense.
Generally it is either by a preponderance, or by clear and convincing. Once the defense has met this burden
of producing an affirmative defense,[COLOR="#0000ff"][U] [COLOR="#000000"]the Government has the additional [B]burden[/B][/COLOR][/U][/COLOR] of persuading the jury
not just as to each element of the crime BRD, but also to persuade the jury to reject the affirmative defense BRD as well.

[INDENT]I[COLOR="#000000"][B]. Burden of Proof[/B][/COLOR]
Presenting an affirmative defense offers no relief to the government in what they
must prove. Patterson v. New York, 432 U.S. 197 (1977). Rather, if the defense
generates an affirmative defense, [COLOR="#ff0000"][U][highlight][COLOR="#000000"]the government must then disprove the defense
generally beyond a reasonable doubt[/COLOR][/highlight][/U][/COLOR]. Mullaney, 421 U.S. at 704; U.S. v. Jackson,
569 F.2d 1003, 1008 n.12 (7th Cir. 1978)(emphasis added).[/INDENT][SIZE=1]


[...]

[B]Google Doc[/B]
[url]https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:06-_HilumfEJ:www.fd.org/pdf_lib/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf+affirmative+defense&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjQQ9DDIG6I9rtWnkdrvG4XMpf-h2KGVxjIf2cgCnXgnZ6rKrFrnVZwDO3Pw-YkvR4VQt6w8d4k7Jd6u3XiNVni3HwMVJaz2xJgZswMP-HkNfqJhwe5jZwla03YrbDJEf3LwZ9D&sig=AHIEtbQjGQcnos5_jKrclWonXfetxH8Zuw[/url]

[B]Straight Pdf[/B]
[url=http://avenue-s.us/resources/beneman_affirmative_defenses_materials.pdf]UNDERSTANDING AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSES[/url][/SIZE]
 
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Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

Which way am I leaning? Hmm, how best to sum it up.....perhaps complete and utter indifference?

This is a court of law in a jurisdiction where I do not reside. I have no influence on the laws of that State, and I do not have to live there. In my opinion, if the people of Florida are unhappy with the law and how it was applied to this trial, they have democratic and legal means to adress it.

I prefer to wait until the outcome, then see how the citizens of Florida react.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

he did murder treyvon. Even he admits to that fact. The only argument is his affirmative defense that he was permitted to do it because of stand your ground. Even if he is found not guilty because he was defending himself he still killed treyvon. In reality he deserves what he is getting right now because he could have just stayed put and waited for the police so i have no sympathy for him. Still, have fun with your arguments. I have put about as much effort into this as i am willing to with a person of your calliber so either come up with something new or have at the last word.

But for George Zimmerman ..Trayvon would still be alive.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

But for George Zimmerman ..Trayvon would still be alive.
But for , would be alive today.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

But for , would be alive today.

Short, sweet and to the point
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

You are really not getting it. he has admitted to killing treyvon. He is guilty of murder and now has to prove it was justified. There is no reasonable doubt he did not kill treyvon. The burden of proof falls upon him to prove it was justified because he has already admitted to the crime. He is not innocent of killing treyvon, and this trial has nothing to do with that. The only debate was whether or not it was a justified killing.

In cases like this....the burden is completely on the state - not just to prove Z's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that Z was in reasonable fear for his life and lastly, the jury will be given self-defense instructions that specify this.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

This sure is a big change to the poll take before the trial started. Gives a very good idea of how the trial is going for the prosecution.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

In cases like this....the burden is completely on the state - not just to prove Z's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, but to disprove beyond a reasonable doubt that Z was in reasonable fear for his life and lastly, the jury will be given self-defense instructions that specify this.

In that case it looks like Z will be getting off and we will have a lot of pissed of black people. It is rare times like this i am thankful for living in rural Alabama.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

In that case it looks like Z will be getting off and we will have a lot of pissed of black people. It is rare times like this i am thankful for living in rural Alabama.

Black people pissed...lol tough love

Flyers should be sent out by, the local government that no rioting will be tolerated. Rioters will be shot on the spot. Period...no ifs ands or buts about it

Now, **** happens because it's possible, the jury may decide to go their own way, but if they follow the law, there is simply no possible way, Z can be convicted.

Looking at the evidence thus far...it points to M administering a major beat down on Z. Z simply defended himself within his rights under the law
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

In order to make a self-defense claim, the DEFENSE must prove that the defendant was carrying out his "duty to retreat:"

Duty to retreat - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Wikipedia said:
In the criminal law, the duty to retreat is a specific component which sometimes appears in the defense of self-defense, and which must be addressed if the defendant is to prove that his or her conduct was justified. In those jurisdictions where the requirement exists, the burden of proof is on the defense to show that the defendant was acting reasonably. This is often taken to mean that the defendant had first avoided conflict and secondly, had taken reasonable steps to retreat and so demonstrated an intention not to fight before eventually using force.
Since Zimmerman had not avoided conflict due to the fact that he was following the source of conflict, he cannot make a good claim to self-defense.
 
If GZ had stayed in his truck and waited for the police, none of this would have happened.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

I'm leaning towards letting the jury make the call.

I voted Guilty of a Lesser Charge. I'm assuming that the jury can do that. That's not always possible, I don't think. But since I believe most everyone sees this as a terrible tragedy, I think the jury will want to find him guilty of SOMETHING. Murder 2? If that happens, I'll say it was a terrible miscarriage of justice. I don't know what lesser charge they might find him guilty of, but if they can? I think they might.
 
If GZ had stayed in his truck and waited for the police, none of this would have happened.

That's probably true. However, that doesn't mean he's guilty of 2nd degree murder.
 
Re: Which way are you leaning pertainingt to the verdict of this trial?

You are really not getting it. he has admitted to killing treyvon. He is guilty of murder and now has to prove it was justified. There is no reasonable doubt he did not kill treyvon. The burden of proof falls upon him to prove it was justified because he has already admitted to the crime. He is not innocent of killing treyvon, and this trial has nothing to do with that. The only debate was whether or not it was a justified killing.

You seem to be confused with the difference between murder and a killing in self defense. Of course he killed TM... that's not the issue since he admitted to it. It's totally up to the state to PROVE he committed any crime. So far they've failed miserably.
 
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