Based on what we know, how did the confrontation go down?

We've been hashing over the facts and everything else for a year now, and since the trial is almost upon us, I thought it might be a good time to speculate on how we think the confrontation might have gone down based on everything we know. I took the following from a post I made on another thread, and I invite you all to comment on it, post your own guess, or both...



I think M was hiding 25 -30 feet from the sidewalk Z traveled and had overheard his call to the police. So after Z hung up and was headed back toward his truck, Martin decided to confront Z and give him a piece of his mind because he knew he had done nothing illegal. I don't think he intended to physically attack him, just make him feel like crap for suspecting him of doing something illegal. Then when M confronted Z, and Z got scared and reached for his phone to call police, M thought Z was reaching in his pocket for a weapon and made a split second decision to punch him before he could pull anything out of his pocket. So in my opinion, I think M attacked Z because he felt he had to in order to defend himself, rather than it being a case where M just decided to beat the crap out of him for the sport of it. From there, I think anger took over and M simply went too far.

In other words, I think the whole damned thing was a tragic misunderstanding and the only reason M ended up dead, was because he let his anger get the best of him and ignored Z's cries for help, turning his fight to defend himself, into a fight to inflict punishment on Z... He had the physical strength of a man, but the discipline and self control of a kid and he payed for it with his life.



The preceding was purely speculation on my part, and was nothing more than a scenario that I believe would logically explain Martin's actions based on the events as described by George Zimmerman. It's not something I would be willing to wager a dime on, nor is it something I necessarily believe to be true... It's just a theory that would logically fit, if the accounts given by George Zimmerman's are in fact accurate.

Grim17 said:

We've been hashing over the facts and everything else for a year now, and since the trial is almost upon us, I thought it might be a good time to speculate on how we think the confrontation might have gone down based on everything we know. I took the following from a post I made on another thread, and I invite you all to comment on it, post your own guess, or both...



I think M was hiding 25 -30 feet from the sidewalk Z traveled and had overheard his call to the police. So after Z hung up and was headed back toward his truck, Martin decided to confront Z and give him a piece of his mind because he knew he had done nothing illegal. I don't think he intended to physically attack him, just make him feel like crap for suspecting him of doing something illegal. Then when M confronted Z, and Z got scared and reached for his phone to call police, M thought Z was reaching in his pocket for a weapon and made a split second decision to punch him before he could pull anything out of his pocket. So in my opinion, I think M attacked Z because he felt he had to in order to defend himself, rather than it being a case where M just decided to beat the crap out of him for the sport of it. From there, I think anger took over and M simply went too far.

In other words, I think the whole damned thing was a tragic misunderstanding and the only reason M ended up dead, was because he let his anger get the best of him and ignored Z's cries for help, turning his fight to defend himself, into a fight to inflict punishment on Z... He had the physical strength of a man, but the discipline and self control of a kid and he payed for it with his life.



The preceding was purely speculation on my part, and was nothing more than a scenario that I believe would logically explain Martin's actions based on the events as described by George Zimmerman. It's not something I would be willing to wager a dime on, nor is it something I necessarily believe to be true... It's just a theory that would logically fit, if the accounts given by George Zimmerman's are in fact accurate.

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™ came out of hiding, was yelling in his approach asking his question, and upon arrival struck Zimmerman, none of which he had reason to do.
I believe these things clearly shown he intended to attack as he did. Zimmerman asking a question in return or reaching into his pocket mattered not to what ™ clearly intended.
He was going to attack anyways.

It also would explain why DD did not come forward on her own. She knew ™ intended to strike Zimmerman.

Grim17 said:

We've been hashing over the facts and everything else for a year now, and since the trial is almost upon us, I thought it might be a good time to speculate on how we think the confrontation might have gone down based on everything we know. I took the following from a post I made on another thread, and I invite you all to comment on it, post your own guess, or both...

I think M was hiding 25 -30 feet from the sidewalk Z traveled and had overheard his call to the police. So after Z hung up and was headed back toward his truck, Martin decided to confront Z and give him a piece of his mind because he knew he had done nothing illegal. I don't think he intended to physically attack him, just make him feel like crap for suspecting him of doing something illegal. Then when M confronted Z, and Z got scared and reached for his phone to call police, M thought Z was reaching in his pocket for a weapon and made a split second decision to punch him before he could pull anything out of his pocket. So in my opinion, I think M attacked Z because he felt he had to in order to defend himself, rather than it being a case where M just decided to beat the crap out of him for the sport of it. From there, I think anger took over and M simply went too far.

In other words, I think the whole damned thing was a tragic misunderstanding and the only reason M ended up dead, was because he let his anger get the best of him and ignored Z's cries for help, turning his fight to defend himself, into a fight to inflict punishment on Z... He had the physical strength of a man, but the discipline and self control of a kid and he payed for it with his life.

The preceding was purely speculation on my part, and was nothing more than a scenario that I believe would logically explain Martin's actions based on the events as described by George Zimmerman. It's not something I would be willing to wager a dime on, nor is it something I necessarily believe to be true... It's just a theory that would logically fit, if the accounts given by George Zimmerman's are in fact accurate.

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George Zimmerman was driving in the subdivision (presumably to go to the store) when he spotted a guy in a hoodie walking in the rain he didn't recognize (or maybe couldn't see his face). He thought the guy was suspicious because it seemed to him he was peering into windows. Combined with walking in the rain? He called the police to report a suspicious person.

His back-and-forth with the dispatch operator ended with plans to hook up with the squad car dispatched to the scene. When he let the dispatch operator know he'd left his car to follow the guy, the dispatch operator said, "We don't need you to do that." Unfortunately, he didn't listen. The biggest mistake of his life -- and the ending of Martin's.

Another point of interest in his conversation with the dispatch operator (that gives us a glimpse at his mindset) was something to the effect of: "They always get away." Lastly, it's worth noting that Zimmerman didn't mention Martin's race until asked.

At any rate, I believe he left his car with the intention of following Martin so he could hook up with the police and tell them exactly where he was.

I'm not as up on the interim things that happened, so I'll leave that to others. But I believe that when he and Martin came face to face (by Martin's design, I believe, since he surely could have outrun him), Martin asked why he was following him. And Zimmerman, taken aback by his face-to-face contact, reached into his pocket for his cellphone to call the police -- let them know where he and Martin had ended up -- and Martin took that as an aggressive move...perhaps thinking he was reaching for a weapon.

And the fight was on.

I believe Martin was getting the better of the brawl, Zimmerman got scared and pulled his gun. He shot once, killing Martin.

I believe he was acting in self defense. Whether or not they jury will see it that way, since -- but for his actions -- there would have been no confrontation and Martin would not be dead.

MaggieD said:

His back-and-forth with the dispatch operator ended with plans to hook up with the squad car dispatched to the scene. When he let the dispatch operator know he'd left his car to follow the guy, the dispatch operator said, "We don't need you to do that." Unfortunately, he didn't listen. The biggest mistake of his life -- and the ending of Martin's.

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Maggie, what do you mean he didn't listen? After the operator said that, he responded by saying "OK" and stopped running.

Grim17 said:

Maggie, what do you mean he didn't listen? After the operator said that, he responded by saying "OK" and stopped running.

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Is that what he told the police? Well, I didn't know that. But seeing as they ended up face to face, he didn't stay in his car. And since where the ended up was a ways from his car, I think he was probably trying to follow him. *shrug*

MaggieD said:

When he let the dispatch operator know he'd left his car to follow the guy, the dispatch operator said, "We don't need you to do that." Unfortunately, he didn't listen. The biggest mistake of his life -- and the ending of Martin's.

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Please provide support for your assertion that he didn't listen.
Besides his saying "ok" to the NEN call-taker when the call-taker said that, what makes you think he continued to follow? Or as he indicated going in the same direction, which would be correct as there is no evidence that he continued down the T.
And as he was returning to his vehicle when ™ came from his behind, he was obviously not headed in the same direction ™ went which also indicates he was not following and had listened.

So please provide support for your assertion that he didn't listened.

Oops. Looks like two of us caught the same thing.

MaggieD said:

Is that what he told the police? Well, I didn't know that. But seeing as they ended up face to face, he didn't stay in his car. And since where the ended up was a ways from his car, I think he was probably trying to follow him. *shrug*

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Yes, that's what he said... And I don't think he was still following him, but was still on the sidewalk while talking to police looking in the direction he went, hoping he would see where he was.

Excon said:

Please provide support for your assertion that he didn't listen.
Besides his saying "ok" to the NEN call-taker when the call-taker said that, what makes you think he continued to follow? Or as he indicated going in the same direction, which would be correct as there is no evidence that he continued down the T.
And as he was returning to his vehicle when ™ came from his behind, he was obviously not headed in the same direction ™ went which indicates he was not following and had listened.

So please provide support for your assertion that he didn't listened.

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Hahaha!!! Remove "Unfortunately, he didn't listen" from my post. Substitute with "At some point he got out of his car and traveled some distance away for some unknown reason." Come on!!! In order for TM to approach him as he was returning to his car, he had to have walked away from it at some point.

MaggieD said:

Hahaha!!! Remove "Unfortunately, he didn't listen" from my post. Substitute with "At some point he got out of his car and traveled some distance away for some unknown reason." Come on!!! In order for TM to approach him as he was returning to his car, he had to have walked away from it at some point.

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He was told he didn't need to do that as he was running toward where he had last seen him.

Grim17 said:

Yes, that's what he said... And I don't think he was still following him, but was still on the sidewalk while talking to police looking in the direction he went, hoping he would see where he was.

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Frankly, this is the reason I think he's got to testify. I don't care if they malign him. He simply MUST tell his story. If he does, I think the jury will have a hard time convicting him. IF he's telling the truth about exactly when he left his car and where he went.

If he got on the stand and tried to fudge the facts a bit? I think he'd be toast.

If I were innocent, you could not keep me off the witness stand. I'm not going to jail like a puppy. I'll go like a lion.

MaggieD said:

Hahaha!!! Remove "Unfortunately, he didn't listen" from my post. Substitute with "At some point he got out of his car and traveled some distance away for some unknown reason." Come on!!! In order for TM to approach him as he was returning to his car, he had to have walked away from it at some point.

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:naughty

Zimmerman was walking on a separate sidewalk that intersects with another. It forms a T. He was headed East.

Zimmerman said he saw ™ go the other way, South, between the buildings, the direction the other sidewalk heads.

On Zimmerman's way back to his vehicle, heading West, he says ™ comes from the South East yelling.

Maybe a visual representation will help.




And to the Traybots, I am not saying that is the exact spot they met at the T.
It is nothing more than a visual representation of directions taken and coming from.

Excon said:

:naughty

Zimmerman was walking on a separate sidewalk that intersects with another. It forms a T. He was headed East.

Zimmerman said he saw ™ go the other way, South, between the buildings, the direction the other sidewalk heads.

On Zimmerman's way back to his vehicle west, he says ™ comes from the South East yelling.

Maybe a visual representation will help.

And to the Traybots, I am not saying that is the exact spot they met at the T.
It is nothing more than a visual representation of directions taken and coming from.

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Pretty good...............

Grim17 said:

Yes, that's what he said... And I don't think he was still following him, but was still on the sidewalk while talking to police looking in the direction he went, hoping he would see where he was.

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There's also the 2+ minutes between hanging up and the encounter at the "tee".

A distance covered in 20-some seconds in the walkthrough.

I think its possible Z was down the path between the buildings when they encountered each other.

I think they startled each other in the dark and they both panicked.

Tragedy of errors precipitated by Z.

Manslaughter at the most.

(I agree about the going for the phone being the "trigger".)

What if...? said:

There's also the 2+ minutes between hanging up and the encounter at the "tee".

A distance covered in 20-some seconds in the walkthrough.

I think its possible Z was down the path between the buildings when they encountered each other.

I think they startled each other in the dark and they both panicked.

Tragedy of errors precipitated by Z.

Manslaughter at the most.

(I agree about the going for the phone being the "trigger".)

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Yes on all points..

It all began and ended with George Z....

And I do believe Trayvon asked.. Why are you following me?

sharon said:

Yes on all points..

It all began and ended with George Z....

And I do believe Trayvon asked.. Why are you following me?

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Or some slang version thereof.

"You got a problem" is pretty much the same thing.

sharon said:

Yes on all points..

It all began and ended with George Z....

And I do believe Trayvon asked.. Why are you following me?

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I disagree. It is about Martin assaulting Zimmerman. It is a tragic case all round but surely a citizen has the right to defend themselves from a person inflicting injury to them. That is what this issue is about in my view. "Who hit Johnny first"? It appears to be Martin hitting Zimmerman and initiating first contact with "why are you following me"?

ABC10 said:

I disagree. It is about Martin assaulting Zimmerman. It is a tragic case all round but surely a citizen has the right to defend themselves from a person inflicting injury to them. That is what this issue is about in my view. "Who hit Johnny first"? It appears to be Martin hitting Zimmerman and initiating first contact with "why are you following me"?

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George was playing at being a cop without any training, authority or a uniform.. Perfectly natural that Trayvon would have feared him.

sharon said:

George was playing at being a cop without any training, authority or a uniform.. Perfectly natural that Trayvon would have feared him.

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No he wasn't sharon.
He was being a good citizen looking out for his fellow neighbors.

If anybody was playing a game it was ™ playing the knock out game.

Excon said:

No he wasn't sharon.
He was being a good citizen looking out for his fellow neighbors.

If anybody was playing a game it was ™ playing the knock out game.

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Trayvon was also a citizen.. and had as many rights as George.. but Trayvon wasn't carrying a gun and playing cop.

sharon said:

Trayvon was also a citizen.. and had as many rights as George.. but Trayvon wasn't carrying a gun and playing cop.

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No sharon.
You assertions are not accurate as he was not playing at being a cop.
Heck he didn't even want to be a cop. So he surely wouldn't be playing at being one.

And ™, wasn't being a good Citizen by attacking another.

But ™ surely could have been playing the knock-out game.

Excon said:

No sharon.
You assertions are not accurate as he was not playing at being a cop.
Heck he didn't even want to be a cop. So he surely wouldn't be playing at being one.

And ™, wasn't being a good citizen by attacking another Citizen.

But ™ surely could have been playing the knock-out game.

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You know neighbors complained about George driving around at night with his lights off.

Trayvon was walking home from the store and got caught in the rain.

sharon said:

You know neighbors complained about George driving around at night with his lights off.

Trayvon was walking home from the store and got caught in the rain.

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Just more deflection. What a shame.

Yes, Martin was a citizen too, however, he did make the initial verbal contact and I think threw the first punch. Assaulting another citizen is not okay. I am not a fan of Neighborhood Watch and prefer paid security but are the people who devote their time and energy to their neighborhood "playing cop"?
Martin died not because he was walking in the rain but because he initiated contact and assaulted Zimmerman.
I don't know anything about complaints of Zimmerman driving with lights off.

ABC10 said:

Yes, Martin was a citizen too, however, he did make the initial verbal contact and I think threw the first punch. Assaulting another citizen is not okay. I am not a fan of Neighborhood Watch and prefer paid security but are the people who devote their time and energy to their neighborhood "playing cop"?

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No they definitely do NOT play cop..

NW can be a grandmother.. a young mother etc.. They are NOT law enforcement.. they are not armed and they don't patrol.

ABC10 said:

Yes, Martin was a citizen too, however, he did make the initial verbal contact and I think threw the first punch. Assaulting another citizen is not okay. I am not a fan of Neighborhood Watch and prefer paid security but are the people who devote their time and energy to their neighborhood "playing cop"?
Martin died not because he was walking in the rain but because he initiated contact and assaulted Zimmerman.

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Asking George, "Why are you following me?" was the adult thing to do. Trayvon deserved a civil answer.