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Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during trial

Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

Stardog said:
So let the jury hike for an hour and see what happens.
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you will see, that unless they are a cripple, they will cover well over 0.8 miles.

Although walking speeds can vary greatly depending on factors such as height, weight, age, terrain, surface, load, culture, effort, and fitness, the average human walking speed is about 3.1 miles per hour (mph).
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considering that trayvon was a healthy 17 y/o we can assume that he would be able, at the very least, to walk the average speed. at average speed, it should have taken Trayvon 15 minutes and 29 seconds to travel from the 7-11 to Brandy Green's. so why, did it take him over 3 times as long to cover less distance? what was he doing for that extra 41 minutes?
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

buck said:
I do three miles in 30 - 45 minutes on the treadmill.. and I could run after that if necessary... and again, im way out of shape - at least compared to how I was when in HS/college.
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I can do 3 miles wearing body armor and a 40 pound ruck in 45 minutes and I am 50 years old with bad knees. you're telling me that a healthy 17 y/o couldn't walk less than a mile in 47 minutes?

the only possible explanation is that he either did not take a direct route back (ie he was walking in and around the rows of buildings in some convoluted manner) or that he was stopping along the way for some reason.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

buck said:
I do three miles in 30 - 45 minutes on the treadmill.. and I could run after that if necessary... and again, im way out of shape - at least compared to how I was when in HS/college.
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You and me both, bro. LOL
While I admit that I haven't followed the details of this case.
The bottom line is----an armed man followed an unarmed kid and the kid ended up dead.
If Z doesn't follow TM, no one dies.
Pretty unlikely that a jury will have much sympathy for George.
We'll see.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
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You and me both, bro. LOL
While I admit that I haven't followed the details of this case.
The bottom line is----an armed man followed an unarmed kid and the kid ended up dead.
If Z doesn't follow TM, no one dies.
Pretty unlikely that a jury will have much sympathy for George.
We'll see.
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and if TM doesn't punch GZ in the face, no one dies.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

joko104 said:
Really? By that logic no gun should ever be produced at trial because everyone knows what a gun is.

Actually, all sidewalks are not the same.
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So in other words, you got nothing about why this particular sidewalk is so unique that it should be brought to trial. Guns are relevant in matters involving where fingerprints are recovered from, the geometry of firing distances and wounds, serial numbers, etc and are generally not that relevant in and of themselves unless there is a point of contention related to the gun or to show there actually was a gun retrieved. Sidewalks just lay there. From the photos I have seen posted here, it just looks like the other billion miles of sidewalks in the country--concrete, rectangular, and not the murder weapon in this case. So I will ask you again, what is so unique about this sidewalk that it should be cut apart over a year later and brought into the courtroom other than being a handy way to run up legal fees and expenses? Would you have the car used in a drunk driving case brought into the court as well?
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

OscarB63 said:
and if TM doesn't punch GZ in the face, no one dies.
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Well, what if GZ attempted to detain TM?
What if GZ grabbed TM's arm?
What if TM--in an actual stand-your-ground moment--fought back against a stranger accosting him?
What if GZ was losing the fight and shot TM?
Very iffy situation.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
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Well, what if GZ attempted to detain TM?
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the state would have to prove it beyond reasonable doubt. there is no evidence to support a claim that GZ tried to detain TM. The prosecution cannot introduce "what ifs" without some evidence to back them up

What if GZ grabbed TM's arm?
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same as above
What if TM--in an actual stand-your-ground moment--fought back against a stranger accosting him?
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FL statute 776.041 2a permits the use of deadly force, even if you are the aggressor, if you feel you are in danger of great injury and cannot escape ( ie you are pinned to the ground and the guy is beating the hell out of you)


What if GZ was losing the fight and shot TM?
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same as above

Very iffy situation.
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exactly. very iffy. but remember, the burden of proof is on the state. also keep in mind that the prosecution has to convince all 12 jurors that GZ is guilty. The defense only has to convince 1 that he is not. otherwise there is a hung jury which results in a mistrial. in that case, the state has the option to rinse and repeat and try him again.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

FL statute 776.041 2a permits the use of deadly force, even if you are the aggressor, if you feel you are in danger of great injury and cannot escape ( ie you are pinned to the ground and the guy is beating the hell out of you)
-----------------
I am guessing this is FL's stand your ground law.
So.....a person---theoretically--- could initiate a fight, begin to lose said fight and shoot his opponent?
Bad law.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
-----------------------
Well, what if GZ attempted to detain TM?
What if GZ grabbed TM's arm?
What if TM--in an actual stand-your-ground moment--fought back against a stranger accosting him?
What if GZ was losing the fight and shot TM?
Very iffy situation.
Click to expand...

You realize the "if" game can be played all day long.

What if TM allowed GZ to detain him. (cops had been notified).
What if GM grabbed TM and TM did nothing but accept the detainment.
What if , what if.

bottom line, and I have said it before, two people made bad decisions that night.
the jury will have to sort out the information and determine if GZ is guilty or not of murder.

Back to the topic.
I support the idea of the jurors to see the site on scene. That may help in them getting a better feel for what went on. See a photo or a diagram is one thing. Seeing the site first hand is another. It can lead to better prespective.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
-----------------------
Well, what if GZ attempted to detain TM?
What if GZ grabbed TM's arm?
What if TM--in an actual stand-your-ground moment--fought back against a stranger accosting him?
What if GZ was losing the fight and shot TM?
Very iffy situation.
Click to expand...

What if.. What if... Waht if... However, did they find any brusing on TM's arm as evidence that GZ grabbed him? or... are you suggesting Z tried to detain him by grabbing VERY loosely?
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

Stardog said:
You think they'll have to draw a map for the jurors when they go out to RTL? After all, George couldn't even keep track of 3 streets.


George Zimmerman Reenactment Of Trayvon Martin Shooting - YouTube
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Do you bring this up as you think it proves Z was lying, or just speaks ot the fact hat he really doens't pay that much attention to the street signs and their names?
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

buck said:
What if.. What if... Waht if... However, did they find any brusing on TM's arm as evidence that GZ grabbed him? or... are you suggesting Z tried to detain him by grabbing VERY loosely?
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------------------
No...I'm suggesting that TM didn't know GZ was any sort of authority figure.
I'm suggesting that GZ is as likely to have initiated contact as TM.
I reiterate my problem with this case---armed man follows unarmed teenager, teenager dies.
Pretty tough to justify.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
FL statute 776.041 2a permits the use of deadly force, even if you are the aggressor, if you feel you are in danger of great injury and cannot escape ( ie you are pinned to the ground and the guy is beating the hell out of you)
-----------------
I am guessing this is FL's stand your ground law.
So.....a person---theoretically--- could initiate a fight, begin to lose said fight and shoot his opponent?
Bad law.
Click to expand...


actually it is the self defense law.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
[/B]
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No...I'm suggesting that TM didn't know GZ was any sort of authority figure.
I'm suggesting that GZ is as likely to have initiated contact as TM.
I reiterate my problem with this case---armed man follows unarmed teenager, teenager dies.
Pretty tough to justify.
Click to expand...

You are free to have problems with the whole thing.. But your what if about Z grabbing T's arm (and the rest of your what if's really) idn't backed by any evidence. If Z grabbed an arm hard enough to be considered as "detaining" he would have had bruising. Lets deal with the actual evidence, not whatever what ifs are floating around in your head...

I can understand the issue with had GZ not gotten out of the car it woudl likely not have happened... But it was not illegal for him to exit his vehicle it is not illegal to continue talking to the police while out of his vehicle, it also is not illegal to see if he can spot the kid again (assuming he even did that). The illegality doesn't occur until T bops Z in the face breaking his nose.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

buck said:
What if.. What if... Waht if... However, did they find any brusing on TM's arm as evidence that GZ grabbed him? or... are you suggesting Z tried to detain him by grabbing VERY loosely?
Click to expand...

there wasn't even any grass stains on trayvon's back to indicate that there had ever been any struggle whatsoever. all the physical evidence supports the story that TM punched GZ in the face and then got on top of him and proceeded to beat the **** out of him.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

buck said:
I can understand the issue with had GZ not gotten out of the car it woudl likely not have happened... But it was not illegal for him to exit his vehicle it is not illegal to continue talking to the police while out of his vehicle, it also is not illegal to see if he can spot the kid again (assuming he even did that). The illegality doesn't occur until T bops Z in the face breaking his nose.
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exactamundo
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

mike2810 said:
You realize the "if" game can be played all day long.

What if TM allowed GZ to detain him. (cops had been notified).
What if GM grabbed TM and TM did nothing but accept the detainment.
What if , what if.

bottom line, and I have said it before, two people made bad decisions that night.
the jury will have to sort out the information and determine if GZ is guilty or not of murder.

Back to the topic.
I support the idea of the jurors to see the site on scene. That may help in them getting a better feel for what went on. See a photo or a diagram is one thing. Seeing the site first hand is another. It can lead to better prespective.
Click to expand...
-------------------------
Why should TM accept anything random stranger GZ does?
TM has no idea GZ is any sort of police surrogate.
I agree with you on the jurors visiting the scene.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

OscarB63 said:
there wasn't even any grass stains on trayvon's back to indicate that there had ever been any struggle whatsoever. all the physical evidence supports the story that TM punched GZ in the face and then got on top of him and proceeded to beat the **** out of him.
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Including those grass stains that Z had on his back.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
-----------------
You and me both, bro. LOL
While I admit that I haven't followed the details of this case.
The bottom line is----an armed man followed an unarmed kid and the kid ended up dead.
If Z doesn't follow TM, no one dies.
Pretty unlikely that a jury will have much sympathy for George.
We'll see.
Click to expand...


You do not understand the law nor do you understand what, the terms provocation and aggressor are.

This is not about whether Z might have said something or done something to avoid M sucker punching Z.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
FL statute 776.041 2a permits the use of deadly force, even if you are the aggressor, if you feel you are in danger of great injury and cannot escape ( ie you are pinned to the ground and the guy is beating the hell out of you)
-----------------
I am guessing this is FL's stand your ground law.
So.....a person---theoretically--- could initiate a fight, begin to lose said fight and shoot his opponent?
Bad law.
Click to expand...

Wrong!
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

radioman said:
FL statute 776.041 2a permits the use of deadly force, even if you are the aggressor, if you feel you are in danger of great injury and cannot escape ( ie you are pinned to the ground and the guy is beating the hell out of you)
-----------------
I am guessing this is FL's stand your ground law.
So.....a person---theoretically--- could initiate a fight, begin to lose said fight and shoot his opponent?
Bad law.
Click to expand...


No. The opposite.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

ric27 said:
You do not understand the law nor do you understand what, the terms provocation and aggressor are.

This is not about whether Z might have said something or done something to avoid M sucker punching Z.
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------------------
As a GZ supporter, you automatically assume TM initiated the altercation.
You don't know that...nor does anyone else....except GZ.
It will be settled in court.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

ric27 said:
Wrong!
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What an excellent, articulate, organized contrapuntal that displays the quoted post's fallacious nature. I commend you, fighter of reason and morals.
 
Re: Defense attorneys ask judge to let jurors travel to scene of shooting during tria

Stardog said:
No. The opposite.

776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself
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funny how you left out the rest of the statute that reads UNLESS

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;
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