• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!
  • Welcome to our archives. No new posts are allowed here.

FBI to George Zimmerman: "We don't have to give you our files"

ChezC3 said:
Than the State judge has no requirement to hear the case. She should dismiss it immediately.
Click to expand...
Write down the grounds on which the case should be dismissed and then send them to O'Mara.
 
JackFrost said:
1. What process is at odds with itself? Example? With specifics, we can better determine if a legal process can be at odds with itself.
Click to expand...



I was clearly referring to using morality for the purpose of bypassing a legal process.
Click to expand...

Tell me, you said it. ^




Following a legal process is tyranny? How?
Click to expand...

This has already been explained.





Yes, I support tyranny, as evidenced by a few posts taken out of context on the internet:lamo
Click to expand...

:yawn:
Click to expand...
 
Simon W. Moon said:
So the FBI should just ignore federal regulations whenever it suits you?

How much responsibility does O'Mara bear for not crossing his eyes and dotting his teas when making his request to the FBI?

Isn't that exactly the kind of thing that O'Mara and his team are charging money for? To be a professional and expert at getting these sorts of things done?
Or is it all on the FBI that O'Mara didn't file the paperwork correctly?
Click to expand...

Should a person that is admitted to the emegency room but is not in immediate danger of dying be refused service for not crossing his t's and dotting his i's? OR should they be given service and be allowed to finish crossing the t's and dotting the i's later?

People make mistakes no matter how experianced or professional they are.

And no, its not whenever I think it should be done, it should be done whenever it is the right thing to do. And i've found over the years that doing the right thing is really really very simple. Use common sense and the Golden Rule.
 
Kal'Stang said:
People make mistakes no matter how experianced or professional they are.
Click to expand...
Should O'Mara be held accountable for his own mistakes?
Or should the FBI be held accountable for O'Mara's mistakes?
 
Kal'Stang said:
And no, its not whenever I think it should be done, it should be done whenever it is the right thing to do. And i've found over the years that doing the right thing is really really very simple. Use common sense and the Golden Rule.
Click to expand...
The FBI is assisting O'Mara with getting the proper paperwork filed. Is that assistance from the FBI something other than the "right thing"?
 
A complicated "due process" and "jurisdiction" question - warranting delay until Federal courts rule on a number of key questions:

1. Can federal law enforcement claim it is immune from state court subpoenas in a criminal case?

2. Can a person by virtue of being a federal employee refuse to comply with a state court subpoena and subpoena duce tecum (to produce documents)? There is a difference from subpoenaing an agency and supoenaing a person.

If so, then someone who works for the EPA could refuse to testify in a murder case for the prosecution. Is being a federal EMPLOYEE grant a person immunity from state and local courts?

3. Since the FBI worked with local police and the prosecutor, did they become agents with and for state police?

4. Federal courts definitely determine if state courts and law enforcement - and federal courts and law enforcement - are denying "due process" in criminal cases. If federal law enforcement refuses to provide evidence that my prove a person innocent in a murder trial, is that the most core denial of due process of all?

5. There is no such thing as "law enforcement" privilege. Thus local and state police, plus reporters and everyone else - that received anything from the FBI verbally or in writing - plus an activities of the FBI they observed - would be admissible - another reason of delay for more depositions and discovery. I would think this would make the Defense's witness list grow minimally to hundreds.
 
Last edited:
Looking forward to seeing Zimmerman get fried
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Should O'Mara be held accountable for his own mistakes?
Or should the FBI be held accountable for O'Mara's mistakes?
Click to expand...

That's not the question. The question is should Zimmerman be denied a full defense because of the errors of others?
 
joko104 said:
That's not the question. The question is should Zimmerman be denied a full defense because of the errors of others?
Click to expand...
Is he being denied any such thing?
It doesn't seem he is. So I am not sure why you would think that was the question.

O'Mara screwed up. The FBI has offered to help. And people on DP are trying to make it out that the FBI are the bad guys.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Is he being denied any such thing?
It doesn't seem he is. So I am not sure why you would think that was the question.

O'Mara screwed up. The FBI has offered to help. And people on DP are trying to make it out that the FBI are the bad guys.
Click to expand...


The FBI did not make a legit "offer to help." Nothing law prevents the FBI from simply giving all records to the defense and prosecution. So claiming they are offering to help the defense figure how to get law enforcement records the FBI is refusing to give is nonsense.
 
Simon W. Moon said:
Should O'Mara be held accountable for his own mistakes?
Click to expand...

Sure.

Simon W. Moon said:
Or should the FBI be held accountable for O'Mara's mistakes?
Click to expand...

No, they should be held accountable to doing the right thing. So what if a few t's weren't crossed or a few i's weren't dotted. Thats just paperwork that can be redone. They have a moral obligation, and a constitutional obligation to make sure that, in general people, and in this case Zimmerman be given everything that they have on a case so that they/he may be given a full and fair trial.

Two wrongs do not make a right.
 
joko104 said:
The FBI did not make a legit "offer to help." Nothing law prevents the FBI from simply giving all records to the defense and prosecution. So claiming they are offering to help the defense figure how to get law enforcement records the FBI is refusing to give is nonsense.
Click to expand...
The federal regulations that the FBI cited don't actually exist? Or that the regulations the FBI cited don't say what the FBI says they say?

Or what exactly?

Kal'Stang said:
No, they should be held accountable to doing the right thing. So what if a few t's weren't crossed or a few i's weren't dotted. Thats just paperwork that can be redone.
Click to expand...
And it is being re-done. Re-done w/ the FBI's assistance, afaict.

Kal'Stang said:
They have a moral obligation, and a constitutional obligation to make sure that, in general people, and in this case Zimmerman be given everything that they have on a case so that they/he may be given a full and fair trial.
Click to expand...
And does helping O'Mara correct his mistakes so that GZ can get these documents help fulfill the FBI's obligations on these counts?
Or is the FBI obligated to ignore federal regulations?

If the FBI stays w/in federal regulations while assisting, does that make the assistance un-ethical? Or is violating federal regulations an ethical obligation in and of itself?
Why do you feel that the FBI must violate federal regulations to act ethically?
What about helping O'Mara file the correct paperwork in the correct way is un-ethical?
 
ChezC3 said:
Tell me, you said it. ^






This has already been explained.







:yawn:
Click to expand...

I like how you continue to dodge and claim "TYRANNY!":lamo

Please explain how following "rules" is tyranny? So we follow rules, therefore we enable tyranny....:lamo

Because by your logic, if a parent sets a curfew for their child one hour before all of the child's friends curfews, that parent would be a tyrant:lamo

Oh no, George Zimmerman has to follow rules like everyone else in the USA. Tyrants!:lamo
Click to expand...
 
joko104 said:
That's not the question. The question is should Zimmerman be denied a full defense because of the errors of others?
Click to expand...

The defense is well aware of the procedure for requesting documents from the FBI, as are we aware of the regulatory limitations, and as such, we are also aware that such a request would be unlikely to produce any more information that has already been provided to the State.

Home

What "error(s)" exactly are you referring to in this case? Per the defense, I don't see them acknowledging any errors. It actually reads they knew about the procedures, and know they will get the same information they received from the state.

It is all a play...they are playing for the sympathies of potential jurors.

"Boo Hoo, the big bad state and the FEDS are meanies, please acquit"-Mark O'Mara.
 
JackFrost said:
ChezC3 said:
I like how you continue to dodge and claim "TYRANNY!":lamo

Please explain how following "rules" is tyranny? So we follow rules, therefore we enable tyranny....:lamo

Because by your logic, if a parent sets a curfew for their child one hour before all of the child's friends curfews, that parent would be a tyrant:lamo

Oh no, George Zimmerman has to follow rules like everyone else in the USA. Tyrants!:lamo
Click to expand...

No dodging, just not in the habit of repeating myself nor am I in the habit of explaining your own words back to you.

You're either purposefully engaged in changing the context of what you and I said, finding some simple pleasure of fulfillment in doing so, or your eyes are not ready to read my words.

In any event, I say good day.
Click to expand...
 
ChezC3 said:
No dodging, just not in the habit of repeating myself nor am I in the habit of explaining your own words back to you.

You're either purposefully engaged in changing the context of what you and I said, finding some simple pleasure of fulfillment in doing so, or your eyes are not ready to read my words.

In any event, I say good day.
Click to expand...

More dodge:lamo

Getting back on topic =/= changing the context or not ready to read your words. If you like, we can go to the Philosophical Discussions forums and discuss morality and how it pertains to our legal system. Your arguments are off topic and too generalized/broad to be of any use in this specific thread.

I always have a good day. Run along now little one:lol:
 
JackFrost said:
More dodge:lamo

Getting back on topic =/= changing the context or not ready to read your words. If you like, we can go to the Philosophical Discussions forums and discuss morality and how it pertains to our legal system. Your arguments are off topic and too generalized/broad to be of any use in this specific thread.

I always have a good day. Run along now little one:lol:
Click to expand...

I said good day!
 
Kal'Stang said:
Sure.



No, they should be held accountable to doing the right thing. So what if a few t's weren't crossed or a few i's weren't dotted. Thats just paperwork that can be redone. They have a moral obligation, and a constitutional obligation to make sure that, in general people, and in this case Zimmerman be given everything that they have on a case so that they/he may be given a full and fair trial.

Two wrongs do not make a right.
Click to expand...

Following the rules =/= immoral.

Back on topic, this is just a fishing attempt by the defense. They do not need the FBI files, nor are they relevant to his defense.

Home

The defense is well aware of the procedure for requesting documents from the FBI, as are we aware of the regulatory limitations, and as such, we are also aware that such a request would be unlikely to produce any more information that has already been provided to the State.
Click to expand...

We understand the FBI is following proper procedure in this matter, and we will continue to work with them to gain appropriate access to information that may be relevant to our case.
Click to expand...

Because claims of racism, of profiling, and of civil rights violations are central to the national attention this case has received, and indeed were central to the calls for Mr. Zimmerman’s arrest, the findings of the FBI’s investigation are very relevant.
Click to expand...



Co-Worker Describes Zimmerman's Account of Shooting - WSJ.com

As you can plainly see, the state has already obtained FBI files relevant to this case, and shared those files with the defense back in November.

What we have here is the defense wants MORE than what the state has obtained and submitted into discovery, a fishing expedition if you will. This is not a case of the big bad immoral state withholding crucial information from the defense. It is the defense's failure to meet the FBI's procedure to obtain the files, not a moral obligation.

So in the end, the defense even ADMITS to the fact they will get the same information the state obtained:lol:
 
JackFrost said:
Indeed:lol:

Still no explanation from you of what was immoral about following procedure in this case:lamo
Click to expand...


and still you add another layer...The answers you seek have already been answered. You're too busy trying to ridicule your way out of your initial error to have noticed.

and with this, I'll allow you the last word you've so desperately shown you need...

:yawn:

Again, I say good day.
 
ChezC3 said:
and still you add another layer...The answers you seek have already been answered. You're too busy trying to ridicule your way out of your initial error to have noticed.

and with this, I'll allow you the last word you've so desperately shown you need...

:yawn:

Again, I say good day.
Click to expand...

No error on my part. There is nothing immoral as you have claimed about following procedures.

Move along now:lol:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom