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Habit Evidence-Manipulation, Harassment, Violence

The OMG "shock" at how AWFUL GZ is by your list, upon undocumented one-person accusations, to me is just someone who never really had a life other than totally white middle class sheltering.
 
He never has to say that. Being a terrible, awful rotten person does not make a person a criminal or murderer. I understand that the prosecution's case is based upon generating hatred against GZ as a person - but that is a game the defense should not agree to, just like Casey Anthony's attorney refused to.

I don't see how it can be avoided, joko. The scope of inquiry on cross is the scope it had on direct. How can Zimmerman hope to establish justification if he never testifies to say he did not have a murderous intent?

Casey Anthony did not have a justification defense. Her story was, it was an accident and she panicked. I don't believe she ever took the stand -- but Zimmerman absolutely will have to, if he hopes to be acquitted. The only two possible results here are intentional homicide and justifiable homicide -- he can't claim he wasn't the shooter, or that the shooting was an accident, etc.
 
You are so far off on law it is sad because then fellow lay people then follow suit. It is NOT allowed to impeach a Defendant's character overall UNLESS the Defendant takes the stand - why most don't. Exactly EVERY attorney who practices law knows that, as do basically all cops.

It'd be like if I just posted over and over, starting thread after thread, that "once the jury hears about Zimmerman passing the lie testing they will find GZ not guilty" - then making up all sorts of crock misapplications of rules of evidence raging that that will get into evidence, when it won't.

Yet that is what you have done in claiming the prosecution can put up any negative from GZ's life over and over and over and over - and not thinking that enough starting so on-its-face crockly exactly opposite application of a federal rule of evidence.

A DEFENDANT'S OVERALL CHARACTER CAN NOT BE ATTACKED BY THE PROSECUTION UNLESS THE DEFENDANT TAKES THE STAND. That's because the Defendant isn't charged with the crime of being of bad character. ONLY if a defendant takes the stand can the prosecution then attack his character because then the issue of the believability of the Defendant's testimony comes into play. EVEN THEN, that character attack has to have direct relevancy, not that the Defendant was caught shoplifting as a child and got into a fight in junior high school (UNLESS the defendant testified he never stole anything and never was in a fight.)

We all understand YOU want GZ's entire life put on trial - but only those by those who made accusations against him - and that is not how it works nor can a prosecution do so.

Joko, a question about "habit evidence" is not such a flamer that you needed to react like this. Many lawyers couldn't answer hawke's question without doing research.

Take a pause, brotherman. You'll give yourself a stroke if you keep boiling over like this.
 
He never has to say that. Being a terrible, awful rotten person does not make a person a criminal or murderer. I understand that the prosecution's case is based upon generating hatred against GZ as a person - but that is a game the defense should not agree to, just like Casey Anthony's attorney refused to.

I think when you say "murder"...I think you are moving the goal post..... The issue is did George's reckless disregard cause the death of Trayvon?

If George is deceitful and has poor impulse control, that goes against him.
 
I think when you say "murder"...I think you are moving the goal post..... The issue is did George's reckless disregard cause the death of Trayvon?

If George is deceitful and has poor impulse control, that goes against him.

What is the charge against GZ again? Murder 2.
So are you saying M2 is the same as " reckless disregard "
I know the judge and jury can tone it down to manslaughter.
 
Is this a federal trial now? I thought it was a FL state matter.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Under Florida's Evidence Code Title VII Chapter 90:

90.201 Matters which must be judicially noticed.—A court shall take judicial notice of:
(1) Decisional, constitutional, and public statutory law and resolutions of the Florida Legislature and the Congress of the United States.
(2) Florida rules of court that have statewide application, its own rules, and the rules of United States courts adopted by the United States Supreme Court.
(3) Rules of court of the United States Supreme Court and of the United States Courts of Appeal.
History.—s. 1, ch. 76-237; s. 1, ch. 77-77; ss. 21, 22, ch. 78-361; ss. 1, 2, ch. 78-379.

For example, if the prosecution were to submit this as Habit Evidence, they would refer the judge to the Federal Rules of Evidence. The judge can then decide to admit it as evidence or not. It is similar to a lawyer referring another court ruling even from another state to the judge when trying to admit evidence or a motion or something.
 
What is the charge against GZ again? Murder 2.
So are you saying M2 is the same as " reckless disregard "
I know the judge and jury can tone it down to manslaughter.

You mean involuntary or voluntary manslaughter...??????
 
Is this a federal trial now? I thought it was a FL state matter.

No, you're right but I assume hawke used the Federal Rules because all of us can discuss them.

Anyway, the Florida Rules on this point are not significantly different.
 
I think when you say "murder"...I think you are moving the goal post..... The issue is did George's reckless disregard cause the death of Trayvon?

If George is deceitful and has poor impulse control, that goes against him.

George's propensity to lie, if it exists, could not possibly be relevant, sharon. He did not lie Martin to death.

 
What is the charge against GZ again? Murder 2.
So are you saying M2 is the same as " reckless disregard "
I know the judge and jury can tone it down to manslaughter.

Nope, reckless disregard is a lesser charge, such as negligent homicide or manslaughter. Murder Two is intentional killing without premeditation.
 
George's propensity to lie, if it exists, could not possibly be relevant, sharon. He did not lie Martin to death.


A reputation for telling the truth is important in any self defense claim.
 
You mean involuntary or voluntary manslaughter...??????

I've heard this before, that some people think Zimmerman could be guilty of manslaughter. I just don't see that myself -- I think it's either Murder Two or Not Guilty.

It'll be interesting to see if the prosecution seeks a lesser charge as an alternative, and if the judge allows it.
 
A reputation for telling the truth is important in any self defense claim.

You are making the same (understandable) mistake as hawke -- "reputation" evidence is very strictly limited, and I doubt it'll come in on it's own. For example, if George kicks his dog, that would probably make the jury dislike him and be more inclined to convict -- but this prejudical effect is an excellent reason for the judge to keep such evidence out.

Anyway, the evidence has to be relevant, and "George has a reputation as a violent man" is not relevant to proving "George shot Trayvon", but it almost certainly will be used to cross George when he testifies, as impeachment of any statement George may make about his peacefulness.

Of course, nobody knows what will happen until the trial, but that's (generally speaking) how the rules of evidence work on "habit" and "reputation" type evidence.
 
You mean involuntary or voluntary manslaughter...??????

doesn't matter.
I for one think GZ was justified.
I was responding to Sharon on her saying someone "moved the goal post" by saying murder.

The State charged GZ with M2. I don't see that level of charges based on the facts released.
 
Joko, a question about "habit evidence" is not such a flamer that you needed to react like this. Many lawyers couldn't answer hawke's question without doing research.

Take a pause, brotherman. You'll give yourself a stroke if you keep boiling over like this.

:) I'll really, really try!
 
:) I'll really, really try!

That's all any of us can do, joko. I have been known to lose my cool here as well.

But it ain't good for us, and I like you, so I'd like you to take care of yourself.
 
Could be, and if true, such things will doubtless be introduced as evidence -- but not as "habit evidence". Instead, these will evidentiary issues the prosecution uses to rebut whatever Zimmerman presents as his "state of mind" and justification for the homicide.

I just don't see how Zimmerman's defense can avoid putting his past violent behavior in play. At some point, he HAS to say "I am a peaceful person; I never intended to hurt anyone" and then it all comes in.

This case is unlike most criminal cases. In most cases, there is no question a crime was committed, rather it is only whether the Defendant did it. Or, as in a rape case, the Defense may deny that the sex was rape, that no crime occurred.

In this case, the Defense is claiming a crime did occur, but that TM committed it. The prosecution claims no, GZ committed the crime. This isn't a "who dunnit," but a "which one dunnit." Or did either of them commit a crime at all and this a traged of errors.

That's why I say if the door is opened to GZ's past, it must also open up on TM's past.

A real question is whether or not the full tapes get into evidence. If they do, GZ has told his story without taking the stand.

EVEN IF GZ took the stand, I really doubt the court would allow hardly anything from his distant past UNLESS GZ opened the door by saying "I've never hurt anyone," "I always tell the truth" etc. I really don't think the court is going to allow tagging in a sexual assault case against a minor a decade or more old, certainly not a civil divorce suit restraining order issue, and it would likely be appealable error if the court allowed evidence of an arrest that did not lead to conviction.

Usually, not always, courts MUST draw a tight border around relevancy, or trials would last forever. The question is did GZ murder TM or not? Not whether GZ is a lying, creepy asshole or a really great cool guy.

If the prosecution can open that door, it might backfire like it did in the Casey Anthony case. It can make the prosecutor seem desperate and trying to get around a lack of evidence. I seem to recall some of the Casey Anthony jurors saw it that way when the prosecutor put on bizarre and questionable evidence and theories. Doing so also opens up the barn door to the defense and gives almost countless basis pursue an appeal.
 
That's all any of us can do, joko. I have been known to lose my cool here as well.

But it ain't good for us, and I like you, so I'd like you to take care of yourself.

I do sometimes have to force myself to take the chill-pill on the forum. I've all but abandoned the abortion board, for example, to avoid being banned or blowing a vein.
 
Most courts won't let you use habit the way originally postured in this thread. You would at best get it in only to refute direct testimony to the opposite with specific incidents of conduct. "My son would never hurt anyone ever." then the door is open to "Well in 2004....."
 
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It could be seen as Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew and in his mind he had to use a weapon. Just look at some of those who he went up against before. Younger cousin, ex-fiance. He never needed a gun for them.

I think you got it backward, it was Martin that bit off more than he could chew. Never start a fight you can't win. How stupid was Martin.
 
This case is unlike most criminal cases. In most cases, there is no question a crime was committed, rather it is only whether the Defendant did it. Or, as in a rape case, the Defense may deny that the sex was rape, that no crime occurred.

In this case, the Defense is claiming a crime did occur, but that TM committed it. The prosecution claims no, GZ committed the crime. This isn't a "who dunnit," but a "which one dunnit." Or did either of them commit a crime at all and this a traged of errors.

That's why I say if the door is opened to GZ's past, it must also open up on TM's past.

A real question is whether or not the full tapes get into evidence. If they do, GZ has told his story without taking the stand.

EVEN IF GZ took the stand, I really doubt the court would allow hardly anything from his distant past UNLESS GZ opened the door by saying "I've never hurt anyone," "I always tell the truth" etc. I really don't think the court is going to allow tagging in a sexual assault case against a minor a decade or more old, certainly not a civil divorce suit restraining order issue, and it would likely be appealable error if the court allowed evidence of an arrest that did not lead to conviction.

Usually, not always, courts MUST draw a tight border around relevancy, or trials would last forever. The question is did GZ murder TM or not? Not whether GZ is a lying, creepy asshole or a really great cool guy.

If the prosecution can open that door, it might backfire like it did in the Casey Anthony case. It can make the prosecutor seem desperate and trying to get around a lack of evidence. I seem to recall some of the Casey Anthony jurors saw it that way when the prosecutor put on bizarre and questionable evidence and theories. Doing so also opens up the barn door to the defense and gives almost countless basis pursue an appeal.

No doubt -- I was gobsmacked when Anthony was acquitted.

I'm not so sure the defense can get Martin's bad behavior, whatever it may be, into evidence. Remember, guilt or innocence turns almost entirely on Zimmerman's state of mind. Since Martin was a stranger to Zimmerman, none of that could be relevant. However, I have no doubt they'll try.

A lot depends on the ability of the judge to control the trial.
 
I think you got it backward, it was Martin that bit off more than he could chew. Never start a fight you can't win. How stupid was Martin.

We don't know what happened, as Martin is not here to tell his side of the story. He may have felt he couldn't get away and turning to fight was his only chance.

He was just 17, yanno. Not very long in life experience and, as best we can tell, not an experienced fighter -- certainly not with grown men on the street.
 
I do sometimes have to force myself to take the chill-pill on the forum. I've all but abandoned the abortion board, for example, to avoid being banned or blowing a vein.

Ya, that one's a corker! I'm rarely there myself.
 
Nope, reckless disregard is a lesser charge, such as negligent homicide or manslaughter. Murder Two is intentional killing without premeditation.

It can be argued that pulling the trigger shows "intent".. The gun didn't go off by accident and George failed to identify himself and diffuse the situation inspite of at least 3 opportunities to do so.
 
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