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What decided this case for you?

My problem with the law is that ethics doesn't seem to be important.

I feel that GZ was ethically in the wrong. Stepping out of his truck was where he went wrong. I don't think I would fault him for driving around looking for TM. That vehicle is a safe environment against someone on foot that isn't actively armed.

The law is a different story. I am waiting on the court, but honestly I don't see where they will get a conviction. Given evidence...idk. Then what about the appeal?
 
No, as I don't feel I have any facts yet, other than that Zimmerman shot Martin to death.

My point is, if the prosecution can show Zimmerman was eager to kill and sought out violent confrontations he thought would fit the SYG criteria before the night he shot Martin, that would be substantial evidence of Zimmerman's guilt.

Justifiable homicide, even under SYG, still turns on the defendant's reasonable perception of threat and his state of mind.

How's that possible?

The state has failed in, the *who initiated the physical struggle* part
 
My problem with the law is that ethics doesn't seem to be important.

I feel that GZ was ethically in the wrong. Stepping out of his truck was where he went wrong. I don't think I would fault him for driving around looking for TM. That vehicle is a safe environment against someone on foot that isn't actively armed.

The law is a different story. I am waiting on the court, but honestly I don't see where they will get a conviction. Given evidence...idk. Then what about the appeal?

The bolded kind of hit a nerve for me. GZ thought TM was suspicious, possibly in the process of committing a crime. Would it be more logical to assume TM was armed, or to assume he wasn't?

This is pure speculation, I'm not sure GZ ever had considerations of TM carrying a weapon.
 
After viewing about a million posts on this topic I decided that the case should be decided in the courtroom and not on the internet.
 
I think you have misunderstood the grand jury and the constitution here, joko.

In any event, I don't believe Murder 2 is a "capital crime", as no one can be sentenced to death for it.

I completely understand grand juries and while you erased "infamous crimes" it actually is there.

What no one, including you, has ever given is a reason the grand jury was bypassed. That did not preclude arresting GZ at all.
 
I completely understand grand juries and while you erased "infamous crimes" it actually is there.

What no one, including you, has ever given is a reason the grand jury was bypassed. That did not preclude arresting GZ at all.

You cannot make an arrest without a charging document, unless a police officer witnesses a felony.

BTW, I was very curious about this and started a thread in Law and Order:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/law-and-order/137831-does-5th-amendment-guarantee-re-grand-juries.html#post1060963464
 
Nearly off of us long ago concluded GZ is likely guilty or likely not guilty. Now we just present and repeat everything over and over and over - then someone knew starts at square one and we all go thru it again.

1. Want "fact" (or circumstantially based speculation) MOST caused your decision,
2. Outside of statutory law, do you have some personal opinion that forms your moral decision on the incident and,
3. Is your moral/ethical view of the case different than what you think the legal outcome should be in law?


I had stated for weeks that one piece of evidence unknown would make my decision - the forensics report on TM's body. Specifically was there "fight" injury against TM and more importantly what was the range of the gunshot?

Personally, I think TM and GZ were both losers. TM was a look-at-me! defiant punk. GZ was a lower than average (half of people are) nobody and failure in life trying to find anything to make him valuable. In my opinion, both stupidly proactively walked into potential violence neither were prepared to deal with. "A man has got to know his limitations."

I don't care if GZ's story has contradictions. Everyone lies to protect themselves and no one can give a full recount of a fight - even those in it. The last real fight I was in that person told the investigator that I just kept hitting and beating on him - though actually it was likely less than 3 seconds I was hitting him. Though he believed what he said 100%. He wasn't lying to his mind, and his story did change in details otherwise as he retold it. So I don't care about inconsistencies in what GZ or anyone else said.

Since the facts do show 1.) GZ was on the ground and 2.) he has fight damage and TM did not, the decisive question then was the range of the gun shot. If within inches or a couple feet, there is at least reasonable doubt that he fired in self defense against an assailant (I don't care if later examination determined it life-threatening or not). If it was at a range of many feet, it was not self defense, it was minimally retailatory - thus manslaughter or murder.

My decision then made when it learned the shot was fired at nearly point-blank range. And only 1 shot fired.


I think my opinion is consistent with Florida criminal law.


My ethics are a bit different from law. I think if two men both proactively enter into an aggressive and violent situation, however it turns out is just between them. It is not our concern of the outcome and certainly not to spend millions of we-the-people's money on it. There are millions, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions of victims of violence that they did not proactively get her/himself into and instead hopelessly did everything possible to avoid it. So since GZ and TM both proactively entered the events leading to violent, I don't care that TM died and wouldn't if instead it had been GZ. I have no interest is splitting hairs in the context of non-existence utopian nature of how men should behave when it becomes violent between them.

What "fact" or aspect of the case made the decision for you (unless you just let the initial media reports do it for you from the start)? Since most of us are 100% familiar with each other's overall opinion and on all specific "issues" too, what DETAIL most matters to YOU?

I don't think he's guilty of Murder 2. I do think he's guilty of some lesser charge. What did it for me was the fact that he, by his actions (whether intentional or not) caused a man to die. Had he not gotten out of his car and tried to keep an eye on Martin, Martin would be alive.
 
I don't think he's guilty of Murder 2. I do think he's guilty of some lesser charge. What did it for me was the fact that he, by his actions (whether intentional or not) caused a man to die. Had he not gotten out of his car and tried to keep an eye on Martin, Martin would be alive.

I agree it shouldn't be M2.
What we may never know (other than GZ statements) is what really happened when GZ and TM confronted one another. Who really started the struggle/fight? Did TM go off on GZ and not stop?

What you said is true, if GZ had not done what he did, TM would be alive.
It could also be said if TM had called the cops, if TM had not fought with GZ, Martin would be alive.

I am of the opinion both TM and GZ decisions resulted in the outcome. Both made questionalble decisions. Hopefully the jury will see the truth and not the spin from the prosecution and defense. In the end, it was a sad event. One person is dead with a family that has to deal with the loss. One person life is ruined no matter what the outcome of the trial and a family has to deal with the situation.
 
I agree it shouldn't be M2.
What we may never know (other than GZ statements) is what really happened when GZ and TM confronted one another. Who really started the struggle/fight? Did TM go off on GZ and not stop?

What you said is true, if GZ had not done what he did, TM would be alive.
It could also be said if TM had called the cops, if TM had not fought with GZ, Martin would be alive.

I am of the opinion both TM and GZ decisions resulted in the outcome. Both made questionalble decisions. Hopefully the jury will see the truth and not the spin from the prosecution and defense. In the end, it was a sad event. One person is dead with a family that has to deal with the loss. One person life is ruined no matter what the outcome of the trial and a family has to deal with the situation.

There are some parts of this story thatI don't know if we can ever get the truth on.

With that said, I think there was a high level of stupidity in the air that night.
 
Just curious: for those of you who believe Zimmerman is guilty but not of Murder 2, then of what? And why?
 
It's not decided for me period. The jury must hear the evidence and render their judgement based on how they see the facts at hand.
 
This case is not decided by me. All I have said is that based on the evidence that is know publicly, it would appear that GZ was in fact acting in self defense according to Florida law. Since I am not a lawyer or an expert in law, I may be wrong and acknowledge that.
 
This case is not decided for me. I do think GZ will be found not guilty, but until I know what happened between the time the 911 operator told him to back off and the shooting, I cannot say I believe he is a victim.
 
Why does no one see significant or even tend to mention/consider the first encounter? That is TM coming towards GZ while he is talking on the phone to the police telephone receptionist, and then (apparently) seeing GZ on the phone turning and running? But for that, I don't think GZ would have gotten out of his truck - and if TM already seemed suspicious that would add to it.

If you were on the phone to the police reporting someone you thought acting suspicious around your neighbors house - and the person approached you, saw you on the phone and then ran - would you try to see where that person ran off to - with the police on the way?

This is what GZ "should" have done. Nothing. he should have waited for the police to arrive. Then when asked if he saw where that person ran off to, GZ should have answered "Of course not. Who the hell do you think I am, Judge Dread? Its not MY job to watch where he went. It's YOUR job to go find him!"

To me, that's absurd. If the suspicion was worth calling the police to my mind and I had gotten the police coming, I think I have an obligation to at least minimally tell the police where that person ran off to. Watching this from the street or sidewalk isn't chasing the person. Its minimally trying to maintain some idea of where the person is - knowing I had the police on the way.

Again, but for that, I do not believe GZ would have gotten out of his truck. I believe THAT first encounter - started by TM (though not illegal) - is what got the ball rolling. The second encounter - also an approach that appears initiated by TM - is what turned it to violence. Who did the actual whatever that took that face-to-face with both demanding the other answer a question - starting with TM making a demand - from non-violence to violence none of us can ever really know, can we?

It does appear TM made the first face-to-face approach, then TM made the second face-to-face approach and the first aggressive/challenging demand. All GZ did was call in a non-emergency report to the police and then try to see where that person went - best the facts seem to tell me.


I believe the first encounter is what got this all spinning out of control. Yet it seems no one else thinks it has any relevancy at all.

That aspect is a gray area for me.

Never have been able to construct how that happened.

Z drove by M and then stopped to.call police.

So Ms path crossed Zs after he stopped.

Its possible that M was walking past an "empty" truck, then realized someone was in it and "circled around".

I'm not impressed with Zs situational awareness.

There are several places where hos judgement is questionable.

To answer the OP, its the lack of anything (ao far) in Ms past that would lead me to believe he was prone to homicidal violence. Or any violence.

IME, violent people are violent.

I think Z created the situation, and therefore bears some responsibility for the outcome.
 
Even if your read on the facts is correct, I don't buy the corollary you seem to imply: that if I see a stranger acting suspiciously, I have SYG license to hunt him up, confront him, and kill him.

I don't think I can arm myself, seek out violent confrontations and then claim SYG absolves me of any guilt.

I really don't see it that way.

I think Zs gun gave him false courage, but i don't think he intended to shoot any ody that night.

I think they "came upon" each other in the dark, panicked, and it went downhill from there.
 
Just curious: for those of you who believe Zimmerman is guilty but not of Murder 2, then of what? And why?

I think a lower form of manslaughter. Negligent homicide, like if yoir blasting through a neighborhood and hit a kid.

An accident caused by Zs actions.
 
My gut opinion was based on how the media and the listening public went immediately to race and they all decided the matter with almost no facts based solely on the race of the dead kid. At that point I knew we were being sold a narrative.

Made me wait until more of the facts were in to decide. The facts of the case suggested to me an unfortunate incident, not murder. Both were "right", both reacted on their sense of rightness, the result was on both of them and a wash where it came to guilt and innocence.
 
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There are NO surprises left....The exchange of information between the parties is almost at 95 to 96%

Based on that...Z is not guilty on Murder 2 and not guilty on manslaughter

The state does not have anything approaching hard evidence of murder and no evidence of foul play with no way to directly pin it on Z.

Bottom line is.....Don’t confuse moral outrage with proof
 
Nearly off of us long ago concluded GZ is likely guilty or likely not guilty. Now we just present and repeat everything over and over and over - then someone knew starts at square one and we all go thru it again.

1. Want "fact" (or circumstantially based speculation) MOST caused your decision,
2. Outside of statutory law, do you have some personal opinion that forms your moral decision on the incident and,
3. Is your moral/ethical view of the case different than what you think the legal outcome should be in law?


I had stated for weeks that one piece of evidence unknown would make my decision - the forensics report on TM's body. Specifically was there "fight" injury against TM and more importantly what was the range of the gunshot?

Personally, I think TM and GZ were both losers. TM was a look-at-me! defiant punk. GZ was a lower than average (half of people are) nobody and failure in life trying to find anything to make him valuable. In my opinion, both stupidly proactively walked into potential violence neither were prepared to deal with. "A man has got to know his limitations."

I don't care if GZ's story has contradictions. Everyone lies to protect themselves and no one can give a full recount of a fight - even those in it. The last real fight I was in that person told the investigator that I just kept hitting and beating on him - though actually it was likely less than 3 seconds I was hitting him. Though he believed what he said 100%. He wasn't lying to his mind, and his story did change in details otherwise as he retold it. So I don't care about inconsistencies in what GZ or anyone else said.

Since the facts do show 1.) GZ was on the ground and 2.) he has fight damage and TM did not, the decisive question then was the range of the gun shot. If within inches or a couple feet, there is at least reasonable doubt that he fired in self defense against an assailant (I don't care if later examination determined it life-threatening or not). If it was at a range of many feet, it was not self defense, it was minimally retailatory - thus manslaughter or murder.

My decision then made when it learned the shot was fired at nearly point-blank range. And only 1 shot fired.


I think my opinion is consistent with Florida criminal law.


My ethics are a bit different from law. I think if two men both proactively enter into an aggressive and violent situation, however it turns out is just between them. It is not our concern of the outcome and certainly not to spend millions of we-the-people's money on it. There are millions, tens of millions, even hundreds of millions of victims of violence that they did not proactively get her/himself into and instead hopelessly did everything possible to avoid it. So since GZ and TM both proactively entered the events leading to violent, I don't care that TM died and wouldn't if instead it had been GZ. I have no interest is splitting hairs in the context of non-existence utopian nature of how men should behave when it becomes violent between them.

What "fact" or aspect of the case made the decision for you (unless you just let the initial media reports do it for you from the start)? Since most of us are 100% familiar with each other's overall opinion and on all specific "issues" too, what DETAIL most matters to YOU?

Zimmerman is guilty as hell.

What decided it for me as three things:

Florida

Zimmerman disobeyed 911 dispatcher

Martin was unarmed
 
I'm no criminal law expert, but I can't see Zimmerman's acts filling any crime other than Murder 2. He wasn't negligent -- the gun did not go off by accident. He wasn't reckless; his behavior was intentional.

To me, this is either justifiable homicide or it isn't, and if the prosecution can show Zimmerman had a propensity for violence, actively sought out confrontations, wanted to be the vigilanti hero, etc., I think any justification he has under SYG goes away.

When's the trial due to start? Anyone know?
 
I'm no criminal law expert, but I can't see Zimmerman's acts filling any crime other than Murder 2. He wasn't negligent -- the gun did not go off by accident. He wasn't reckless; his behavior was intentional.

To me, this is either justifiable homicide or it isn't, and if the prosecution can show Zimmerman had a propensity for violence, actively sought out confrontations, wanted to be the vigilanti hero, etc., I think any justification he has under SYG goes away.

When's the trial due to start? Anyone know?

Never, this case will never to to trial.
 
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