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Is The HOA Liable?

Pinkie

Pinkie

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Sharon and I stared to discuss this, and I think it's interesting enough to support its own thread, so here goes.

Sharon and I share a compassion for Martin's mother. I don't think we share a view that the HOA can "well afford to pay" or that merely because its insurance company has sought to pre-empt any attempt to saddle them with whatever award Martin' mother may get, someday, that insurance company has signaled they also think the HOA owes Martin's mother money.

And we agree there are some facts that could exist that would change our view on how this lawsuit (Martin's mother against the HOA) should be decided, if one is filed.

So.....with all that said, here's what I think. I live in a big neighborhood, bigger than some small towns, with a neighborhood watch. Anyone can join and anyone can run around with a flashlight on their schedule. They aren't under anyone's supervision or control, though they get support from the cops, property owners, etc.

Then in my housing association (one of the few in my neighborhood) we have the same older man vigilanti types "patroling" the grounds. These guys probably do have some status with the neighborhood watch. I have no control over them, I don't know what they do, etc.

Should I lose my home if one of my neighbors kills a visitor, as Zimmerman did Martin?

What if I did not live in a housing association? Would that change your answer?

What'dya think?
 
Pinkie said:
Sharon and I stared to discuss this, and I think it's interesting enough to support its own thread, so here goes.

Sharon and I share a compassion for Martin's mother. I don't think we share a view that the HOA can "well afford to pay" or that merely because its insurance company has sought to pre-empt any attempt to saddle them with whatever award Martin' mother may get, someday, that insurance company has signaled they also think the HOA owes Martin's mother money.

And we agree there are some facts that could exist that would change our view on how this lawsuit (Martin's mother against the HOA) should be decided, if one is filed.

So.....with all that said, here's what I think. I live in a big neighborhood, bigger than some small towns, with a neighborhood watch. Anyone can join and anyone can run around with a flashlight on their schedule. They aren't under anyone's supervision or control, though they get support from the cops, property owners, etc.

Then in my housing association (one of the few in my neighborhood) we have the same older man vigilanti types "patroling" the grounds. These guys probably do have some status with the neighborhood watch. I have no control over them, I don't know what they do, etc.

Should I lose my home if one of my neighbors kills a visitor, as Zimmerman did Martin?

What if I did not live in a housing association? Would that change your answer?

What'dya think?
Click to expand...

An HOA losing a lawsuit should in no way affect homeowners who had no decision-making ability in the actions that led to the suit.

Then again, I adamantly oppose HOAs and would never live in one.
 
I'm not quite getting the whole premise here.

But my first thought is, what does the HOA have to do with anything?
 
radcen said:
I'm not quite getting the whole premise here.

But my first thought is, what does the HOA have to do with anything?
Click to expand...


Absolute nothing at all.
 
radcen said:
I'm not quite getting the whole premise here.

But my first thought is, what does the HOA have to do with anything?
Click to expand...

IMO, the lawyer for TM family(?), is trying to link GZ with the NW and the HOA supported the NW program. The lawyer is trying to say that GZ being the NW captain is on duty 24/7. The lawyer must not think that GZ can every be a private citizen and act on his own. It all boils down to who has the deepest pocket to tap for money. One reason I hate stupid lawsuites. IMO, this is one.

It is interesting so far the TM lawyer has not gone after the store that sold GZ the gun, or the gun manufactor, or the ammo manufactor. Wonder if that will be next for them?
 
tessaesque said:
An HOA losing a lawsuit should in no way affect homeowners who had no decision-making ability in the actions that led to the suit.

Then again, I adamantly oppose HOAs and would never live in one.
Click to expand...

Of course if the HOA loses a lawsuit to Martin's mother, it will affect the homeowners. In order for an HOA to even exist, there has to a document setting out the homeowners' mutual agreement to live under certain rules, pay money for certain mutual benefits, etc. Like a partnership, the economic costs will flow through the HOA to each homeowner, and if they can't pay, they'll lose their home.

It's possible that this HOA will be able to shift the burden to its insurance company, but even if they do, they'll probably never get another policy. Depending on a variety of factors, this could render the homes inside that HOA unsellable -- and an unsellable home is worth less (or worthless).

As for living in an HOA, well, there are good and bad things about it -- but I am shocked that I could lose my home because my neighbor shoots someone, justified or not. Even if it's a remote possibility, it's certainly not a risk I ever agreed to accept.

 
mike2810 said:
IMO, the lawyer for TM family(?), is trying to link GZ with the NW and the HOA supported the NW program. The lawyer is trying to say that GZ being the NW captain is on duty 24/7. The lawyer must not think that GZ can every be a private citizen and act on his own. It all boils down to who has the deepest pocket to tap for money. One reason I hate stupid lawsuites. IMO, this is one.

It is interesting so far the TM lawyer has not gone after the store that sold GZ the gun, or the gun manufactor, or the ammo manufactor. Wonder if that will be next for them?
Click to expand...

IMO, a neighborhood watch member is a "private citizen" whether he's captain or not, on duty or not.

I am horrified at the idea I could be liable for the criminal acts of my neighbors. ANY of my neighbors.
 
mike2810 said:
IMO, the lawyer for TM family(?), is trying to link GZ with the NW and the HOA supported the NW program. The lawyer is trying to say that GZ being the NW captain is on duty 24/7. The lawyer must not think that GZ can every be a private citizen and act on his own. It all boils down to who has the deepest pocket to tap for money. One reason I hate stupid lawsuites. IMO, this is one.

It is interesting so far the TM lawyer has not gone after the store that sold GZ the gun, or the gun manufactor, or the ammo manufactor. Wonder if that will be next for them?
Click to expand...
The "deep pocket" aspect did occur to me as well, and so far that's about the only thing that makes sense to me. 'Sense' in the sense that it might work. It would still be repugnant to me.


Pinkie said:
Of course if the HOA loses a lawsuit to Martin's mother, it will affect the homeowners. In order for an HOA to even exist, there has to a document setting out the homeowners' mutual agreement to live under certain rules, pay money for certain mutual benefits, etc. Like a partnership, the economic costs will flow through the HOA to each homeowner, and if they can't pay, they'll lose their home.

It's possible that this HOA will be able to shift the burden to its insurance company, but even if they do, they'll probably never get another policy. Depending on a variety of factors, this could render the homes inside that HOA unsellable -- and an unsellable home is worth less (or worthless).

As for living in an HOA, well, there are good and bad things about it -- but I am shocked that I could lose my home because my neighbor shoots someone, justified or not. Even if it's a remote possibility, it's certainly not a risk I ever agreed to accept.
Click to expand...
How would you lose your home? I'm not getting that part.

I can see where your dues might go up to cover any court award and/or higher insurance premiums.
 
Pinkie said:
IMO, a neighborhood watch member is a "private citizen" whether he's captain or not, on duty or not.

I am horrified at the idea I could be liable for the criminal acts of my neighbors. ANY of my neighbors.
Click to expand...

Yes it is scary.
Like a said, some lawyers will go after the bigger bucks. Sometimes the action is done to see if the person/HOA/Insurance will settle out of court.

As far as NW, for me in order to hold the NW or HOA partially responsible it has be proved that the person at the time was acting as a representative of the HOA. In this case, GZ was not.

Guess worse case the HOA it looses the lawsuit, it could file for bankruptcy and all the homeowners. It would tie things up in the courts for years.:mrgreen:
 
Pinkie said:
Of course if the HOA loses a lawsuit to Martin's mother, it will affect the homeowners. In order for an HOA to even exist, there has to a document setting out the homeowners' mutual agreement to live under certain rules, pay money for certain mutual benefits, etc. Like a partnership, the economic costs will flow through the HOA to each homeowner, and if they can't pay, they'll lose their home.

It's possible that this HOA will be able to shift the burden to its insurance company, but even if they do, they'll probably never get another policy. Depending on a variety of factors, this could render the homes inside that HOA unsellable -- and an unsellable home is worth less (or worthless).

As for living in an HOA, well, there are good and bad things about it -- but I am shocked that I could lose my home because my neighbor shoots someone, justified or not. Even if it's a remote possibility, it's certainly not a risk I ever agreed to accept.
Click to expand...

An HOA shouldn't have any right to ownership over your property. Any and all lawsuit rewards should come from their own coffers and their insurance company. If the HOA is then no longer insurable then the HOA is disbanded. Either a new one takes it place or you live without an HOA. Not having an HOA doesn't destroy the value of the home. For many people it would make them much more appealing.

This is why I'm so opposed to them. I'm paying the taxes, the mortgage, and carrying the insurance on my property, and the HOA then expects me to pay them while simultaneously allowing them to dictate how and what I can do to my home, under what circumstances and within what limitations, and even worse..those ****ers can take a lien out on my home and essentially remove my home from my possession. I know somebody who lives in an HOA where she is required to get her neighbor's permission (all surrounding neighbors) before she can change the landscaping in her backyard, an area that isn't even visible to her neighbors. And a lot of them do absolutely ridiculous crap like that all time...for what, exactly? Freedom from mowing and a cookie-cutter curb-appeal?
 
tessaesque said:
This is why I'm so opposed to them. I'm paying the taxes, the mortgage, and carrying the insurance on my property, and the HOA then expects me to pay them while simultaneously allowing them to dictate how and what I can do to my home, under what circumstances and within what limitations, and even worse..those ****ers can take a lien out on my home and essentially remove my home from my possession. I know somebody who lives in an HOA where she is required to get her neighbor's permission (all surrounding neighbors) before she can change the landscaping in her backyard, an area that isn't even visible to her neighbors. And a lot of them do absolutely ridiculous crap like that all time...for what, exactly? Freedom from mowing and a cookie-cutter curb-appeal?
Click to expand...
You have just articulated why I am vehemently opposed to HOAs as well.
 
Well, I can understand all you guys who say "I would never live in an HOA". But the fact is, Zimmerman did and now, Martin's mother wants to sue them.

Being as I do too, I thought this was interesting.
 
Pinkie said:
Well, I can understand all you guys who say "I would never live in an HOA". But the fact is, Zimmerman did and now, Martin's mother wants to sue them.

Being as I do too, I thought this was interesting.
Click to expand...


Well, as Sharon explains, then you are liable for any action of anyone who lives in your community including their criminal activities. :doh
 
joko104 said:
Well, as Sharon explains, then you are liable for any action of anyone who lives in your community including their criminal activities. :doh
Click to expand...

I really don't see how.

Unless the residents are given the ability to veto or vote out those appointed by the HOA, the home owners should have no legal or financial responsibility for negative outcomes resultant from those appointments.
 
This is what I think, too. How can my neighbor's choice in volunteer activities that I have no way of even knowing about make me liable for his acts?
 
Hey kiddo.

Do you pay a monthly or yearly fee to your HOA?

Pinkie said:
Sharon and I stared to discuss this, and I think it's interesting enough to support its own thread, so here goes.

Sharon and I share a compassion for Martin's mother. I don't think we share a view that the HOA can "well afford to pay" or that merely because its insurance company has sought to pre-empt any attempt to saddle them with whatever award Martin' mother may get, someday, that insurance company has signaled they also think the HOA owes Martin's mother money.

And we agree there are some facts that could exist that would change our view on how this lawsuit (Martin's mother against the HOA) should be decided, if one is filed.

So.....with all that said, here's what I think. I live in a big neighborhood, bigger than some small towns, with a neighborhood watch. Anyone can join and anyone can run around with a flashlight on their schedule. They aren't under anyone's supervision or control, though they get support from the cops, property owners, etc.

Then in my housing association (one of the few in my neighborhood) we have the same older man vigilanti types "patroling" the grounds. These guys probably do have some status with the neighborhood watch. I have no control over them, I don't know what they do, etc.

Should I lose my home if one of my neighbors kills a visitor, as Zimmerman did Martin?

What if I did not live in a housing association? Would that change your answer?

What'dya think?
Click to expand...
 
Pinkie said:
Sharon and I stared to discuss this, and I think it's interesting enough to support its own thread, so here goes.

Sharon and I share a compassion for Martin's mother. I don't think we share a view that the HOA can "well afford to pay" or that merely because its insurance company has sought to pre-empt any attempt to saddle them with whatever award Martin' mother may get, someday, that insurance company has signaled they also think the HOA owes Martin's mother money.

And we agree there are some facts that could exist that would change our view on how this lawsuit (Martin's mother against the HOA) should be decided, if one is filed.

So.....with all that said, here's what I think. I live in a big neighborhood, bigger than some small towns, with a neighborhood watch. Anyone can join and anyone can run around with a flashlight on their schedule. They aren't under anyone's supervision or control, though they get support from the cops, property owners, etc.

Then in my housing association (one of the few in my neighborhood) we have the same older man vigilanti types "patroling" the grounds. These guys probably do have some status with the neighborhood watch. I have no control over them, I don't know what they do, etc.

Should I lose my home if one of my neighbors kills a visitor, as Zimmerman did Martin?

What if I did not live in a housing association? Would that change your answer?

What'dya think?
Click to expand...

A suit in Martin's family's favor would not affect the homeowners. The worst that would happen is that their rent might go up slightly more when the renew their leases -- if they chose to renew. They won't lose their homes. If you don't live in the HOA, the outcome would not affect you at all.
 
Pinkie said:
Well, I can understand all you guys who say "I would never live in an HOA". But the fact is, Zimmerman did and now, Martin's mother wants to sue them.

Being as I do too, I thought this was interesting.
Click to expand...


Look at it this way.. How many families can afford a pool, an outdoor picnic area, tennis courts and a well equipped gym?

If you share the cost of the amenities..... you also share the liabilities..

And, George was a liability to these homeowners.
 
sharon said:
Look at it this way.. How many families can afford a pool, an outdoor picnic area, tennis courts and a well equipped gym?

If you share the cost of the amenities..... you also share the liabilities..

And, George was a liability to these homeowners.
Click to expand...

not a good comparision
Your logic then is if a person in a hoa is a meth cooker, then all hoa members are liable for the drug dealer action. Don't they share in the liabiltiy? If a person on hoa property (driveway) hits another car, is it the hoa liability or the driver?

Sharon I will ask again, is there anytime a person living in an hoa is just a person or are they an hoa representative all the time.

the answer is they are not representing the hoa all the time. Even the HOA president has times they are just a homeowner. It is a shame you cannot recognize it.
 
tessaesque said:
An HOA shouldn't have any right to ownership over your property. Any and all lawsuit rewards should come from their own coffers and their insurance company. If the HOA is then no longer insurable then the HOA is disbanded. Either a new one takes it place or you live without an HOA. Not having an HOA doesn't destroy the value of the home. For many people it would make them much more appealing.

This is why I'm so opposed to them. I'm paying the taxes, the mortgage, and carrying the insurance on my property, and the HOA then expects me to pay them while simultaneously allowing them to dictate how and what I can do to my home, under what circumstances and within what limitations, and even worse..those ****ers can take a lien out on my home and essentially remove my home from my possession. I know somebody who lives in an HOA where she is required to get her neighbor's permission (all surrounding neighbors) before she can change the landscaping in her backyard, an area that isn't even visible to her neighbors. And a lot of them do absolutely ridiculous crap like that all time...for what, exactly? Freedom from mowing and a cookie-cutter curb-appeal?
Click to expand...

People choose to live in homeowners associations or they don't. IMO, as Pinkie's, HO's have good and bad points. They may not let you paint your home pink with orange polka dots, but on the other hand, they can ask your neighbor to get rid of that 72 Chevy on blocks in your front yard. Many also the community pools, lakes, and other assets. Somebody has to do it.

That said, I am under the impression that the only lien the HO has on your property is the right to collect dues. I don't believe that lawsuits can come after individual properties. I can see, however, that dues may be raised to cover judgements.
 
sharon said:
Hey kiddo.

Do you pay a monthly or yearly fee to your HOA?
Click to expand...

Monthly -- over $400. But in exchange, they do almost as much for the exterior as a condo association would do, and we have some common land and amenities.

If that fee went up to, say, $800, I'd be unable to go on living in my home, and I doubt I could find a buyer.
 
Stardog said:
A suit in Martin's family's favor would not affect the homeowners. The worst that would happen is that their rent might go up slightly more when the renew their leases -- if they chose to renew. They won't lose their homes. If you don't live in the HOA, the outcome would not affect you at all.
Click to expand...

Well, obviously if HOA fees rose, the homeowners in that association would be affected. I think it's arrogant as hell to assume that the impact won't be severe -- some are likely to struggling to keep their homes with expenses as they are.

If the HOA has common land, or even worse, common amenities (a playground, a swimming pool, a party house, etc.) then, without a liability insurance police in place, the homes in the association are as good as unsellable.

 
Pinkie said:
Sharon and I stared to discuss this, and I think it's interesting enough to support its own thread, so here goes.

Sharon and I share a compassion for Martin's mother. I don't think we share a view that the HOA can "well afford to pay" or that merely because its insurance company has sought to pre-empt any attempt to saddle them with whatever award Martin' mother may get, someday, that insurance company has signaled they also think the HOA owes Martin's mother money.

And we agree there are some facts that could exist that would change our view on how this lawsuit (Martin's mother against the HOA) should be decided, if one is filed.

So.....with all that said, here's what I think. I live in a big neighborhood, bigger than some small towns, with a neighborhood watch. Anyone can join and anyone can run around with a flashlight on their schedule. They aren't under anyone's supervision or control, though they get support from the cops, property owners, etc.

Then in my housing association (one of the few in my neighborhood) we have the same older man vigilanti types "patroling" the grounds. These guys probably do have some status with the neighborhood watch. I have no control over them, I don't know what they do, etc.

Should I lose my home if one of my neighbors kills a visitor, as Zimmerman did Martin?

What if I did not live in a housing association? Would that change your answer?

What'dya think?
Click to expand...

Neighborhood Watch doesn't (shouldn't) mean vigilanteism. In the Zimmerman situation, he was on his way to the store when he called the police. I think the idea that the HOA bears any responsibility for this is ridiculous. I see you say "the insurance company thinks they owe some money." It's my understanding they have filed paperwork that asks a court to determine same. They don't think they owe a dime and think any suit including them would be frivilous. ??

My neighborhood has a neighborhood watch program. It is ridiculous to think that homeowners are liable for the illegal actions of a resident.
 
Pinkie said:
Monthly -- over $400. But in exchange, they do almost as much for the exterior as a condo association would do, and we have some common land and amenities.

If that fee went up to, say, $800, I'd be unable to go on living in my home, and I doubt I could find a buyer.
Click to expand...
$400/mo alone would make me :eek:
 
radcen said:
$400/mo alone would make me :eek:
Click to expand...

Ya, I struggle with it -- but they also do a lot of repairs inside my home, they replace my furnace and roof as needed, etc. It's a nice place to live for an older lady like myself.

In fact, they'll be here on Monday to upgrade my electrical service. This is all stuff I wouldn't be able to know about, and without it, I'd never have had the guts to buy a pre-WW II home.
 
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