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Head hits concrete?

buck said:
If T sees Z out of his vehicle after T thought he had evaded Z, it's very possible T thought flight didn't work and wanted to get this guy to stop following him.

It is plausible for a white or black individual (since you want to turn it into a racist attack) to see that after trying flight and the guy is still following/nearby to try fight instead.

Apparently T approached Z while Z was still in his vehicle with his hands in his pants, I suspect to act as if he had a gun. That is an aggreesive/intimidating gesture, which lends support to T not being above aggressive action.
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Trayvon was holding his cellphone.. Again we have George's imagination.
 
sharon said:
The assault by George (under Florida Law) happened when George made Trayvon afraid.
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there is no proof that trayvon was afraid. a person who is afraid does not wait in the dark for the person who is following him. they continue to move the 100 feet to the safety of their home or they call the police. they don't stand around chatting on the phone with their female friend
 
buck said:
If T sees Z out of his vehicle after T thought he had evaded Z, it's very possible T thought flight didn't work and wanted to get this guy to stop following him.
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Do you understand that Martin would have to come back from a much safer position to attack Zimmerman? Flight worked.

It is plausible for a white or black individual (since you want to turn it into a racist attack) to see that after trying flight and the guy is still following/nearby to try fight instead.
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Again, flight worked. Now I made no mention of racism or racist people, that's your oversensitivity to any race related discussion exposing itself. I said bias. I believe people feel Zimmerman's story is viable partly because it's not unreasonable to believe a young black man would suddenly become homocidal with no provocation.
Apparently T approached Z while Z was still in his vehicle with his hands in his pants, I suspect to act as if he had a gun. That is an aggreesive/intimidating gesture, which lends support to T not being above aggressive action.
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How does this make sense to you? He later ran, no? That's not very intimidating is it?
 
OscarB63 said:
and George had the presence of mind to ASK...what are you doing here? Trayvon is the one who chose to punch the other guy in the face
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Z didnt JUST ask "What are you doing around here?".

He ALSO commenced to fumble about in his pockets.

Which would justify Ms use of APPROPRIATE force.

Killing no.

But punching would probably be considered "reasonable" considering Zs actions up to that point.
 
OscarB63 said:
I have yet to see any proof that zimmerman grabbed Martin. what I see is that zimmerman verbally confronted martin and it pissed him off so he punched him
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I suggest you reread and understand the point I was making. I asked questions.
 
OscarB63 said:
there is no proof that trayvon was afraid. a person who is afraid does not wait in the dark for the person who is following him. they continue to move the 100 feet to the safety of their home or they call the police. they don't stand around chatting on the phone with their female friend
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Why are you ignoring DeeDee's testimony?
 
buck said:
If T sees Z out of his vehicle after T thought he had evaded Z, it's very possible T thought flight didn't work and wanted to get this guy to stop following him.

It is plausible for a white or black individual (since you want to turn it into a racist attack) to see that after trying flight and the guy is still following/nearby to try fight instead.

Apparently T approached Z while Z was still in his vehicle with his hands in his pants, I suspect to act as if he had a gun. That is an aggreesive/intimidating gesture, which lends support to T not being above aggressive action.
Click to expand...

The "droopy drawers" style prevalent in hip hop culture requires them to co stantly pull up/hold up their pants.

This is a much more likely explanation.
 
What if...? said:
Z didnt JUST ask "What are you doing around here?".

He ALSO commenced to fumble about in his pockets.

Which would justify Ms use of APPROPRIATE force.

Killing no.

But punching would probably be considered "reasonable" considering Zs actions up to that point.
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and I have never disagreed with that. where Trayvon crossed the line and where GZ had the right to defend himself with deadly force is when Trayvon chose to continue to beat GZ after he was flat on his back on the ground with a broken nose. had trayvon simply walked away at that point and GZ had gotten up and chased him down or shot him in the back...I'd be on the TM side squealing for GZ's conviction
 
OscarB63 said:
because it is inherently biased and unreliable
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So is George's...

It would have been impossible for GZ to get his gun out of his holster while flat on his back and Trayvon on top of him..

And GZ didn't shimmy for 45 feet with Trayvon sitting on him.
 
OscarB63 said:
because it is inherently biased and unreliable
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So you believe George's testimony is not given that he's established that he's willing to deceive the court to better his position?
 
joko104 said:
A few days ago I was climbing out of a small space, caught my foot and fell out. Long, long ago as a youth I learned much about falling and that often it is better to just take and roll with the fall rather than to try to catch yourself with your hand(s) or to land on your arm as that can sprain, pull or break something. BUT I grew up in a no concrete world, so alway was landing on dirt, sand or grass.

With that past as I fell I instead instinctly let myself hit on my shoulder and roll, but then the back of him head rolled down hitting concrete. DAMN THAT HURT! Stunned me for a moment too - and I'm not easily stunned in a physical injury. Then I wondered if I had been seriously hurt - felt the back of my head, no bleeding, pondered if I should go to the doctor. Waited a few seconds before trying to get up.

The impact was not near enough to cause any skin damage. But still it was VERY painful, very disorienting and concerning. The experience seemed relevant to the CORE legal issue in the Zimmerman case.

Those who keep posting that GZ didn't have serious injuries or any reason to fear serious injury are so absurd and wrong I don't think anything they write should be taken as ligitimate. Concrete IS a deadly weapon that TM was using against GZ.

The back of your head hitting concrete is ALWAYS life threatening and potentially fatal or of causing serious permanent injury. Anyone claiming otherwise has NO integrity in their reasoning in my opinion.

I still believe that the defense should ask EVERY prosecution witness how much money it would take for them to allow a same-size as TM man to slam the witness in the face hard enough to break the witness's nose and then slam their head on a concrete pad twice hard enough to cut the skin. THAT is THE essential "FACT" of the case. And every time the prosecutor objected and the judge agreed with the prosecutor, the jury would understand the point. NO SANE PERSON would agree to their head being slammed down on concrete even for thousands of dollars.
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Not trying to take the steam out of your OP as you make a great point, but I was cutting tree branches the other day and my pole saw got stuck. Well, I started to walk under the branch holding the pole to try to free the saw and I noticed it had freed up so I squeezed the trigger to continue to cut the branch and instantly it gave way. Now this "branch" was about as big around as a dinner plate at the base. It came down and I threw my head to the side just in time where it hit me in the SHOULDER hard enough that I blacked out when I hit the ground. My head hit, my back hit, everything hit. I woke up with this huge branch on me and my entire side hurting. A few minutes later I felt better, but was sore for days after. I took my shirt off and saw practically no visible injury whatsoever. A tiny bit of redness where the branch hit me. I could have easily walked by someone on the street shirtless and they would not have known I just got flattened by a tree branch.

Point of the story: Visible injuries, or lack thereof, do not mean in impact or three, didn't take place. Certainly with the injuries on the back of Zims head, he was beaten badly. I'm just glad he was able to maintain enough consciousness to put a bullet in his attacker.
 
sharon said:
Trayvon was holding his cellphone.. Again we have George's imagination.
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I don't know how T holding his cell phone negates any possibility that T sturck him first. In fact, as I recall, deedee (originally) indicated that she heard a push then someone pushed T, which would imply that T began the physical encounter.
 
buck said:
I don't know how T holding his cell phone negates any possibility that T sturck him first. In fact, as I recall, deedee (originally) indicated that she heard a push then someone pushed T, which would imply that T began the physical encounter.
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He didn't, buck..

Trayvon's cell phone was 45 feet south of the T next to his body.

If you believe George.. you have to believe that Trayvon was sitting on, punching, headbanging and smothering without ever letting go of his cellphone.
 
Sounds like the perfect a$$ over teakettle.. I have had a few of those. Glad you are OK.

dontworrybehappy said:
Not trying to take the steam out of your OP as you make a great point, but I was cutting tree branches the other day and my pole saw got stuck. Well, I started to walk under the branch holding the pole to try to free the saw and I noticed it had freed up so I squeezed the trigger to continue to cut the branch and instantly it gave way. Now this "branch" was about as big around as a dinner plate at the base. It came down and I threw my head to the side just in time where it hit me in the SHOULDER hard enough that I blacked out when I hit the ground. My head hit, my back hit, everything hit. I woke up with this huge branch on me and my entire side hurting. A few minutes later I felt better, but was sore for days after. I took my shirt off and saw practically no visible injury whatsoever. A tiny bit of redness where the branch hit me. I could have easily walked by someone on the street shirtless and they would not have known I just got flattened by a tree branch.

Point of the story: Visible injuries, or lack thereof, do not mean in impact or three, didn't take place. Certainly with the injuries on the back of Zims head, he was beaten badly. I'm just glad he was able to maintain enough consciousness to put a bullet in his attacker.
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Tettsuo said:
Do you understand that Martin would have to come back from a much safer position to attack Zimmerman? Flight worked.
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I do not understand, why you suspect that flight worked when T still sees Z in near proximity. It seems to me that T would realize that running didn't work (since this guy is still right here) and another tact might be necessary.


Again, flight worked. Now I made no mention of racism or racist people,
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Originally stated by Tettsuo: It's this flippant believe that makes this entire story racially bias to me... Now I'm not called anyone here a racist, but there is a level of bias at work that makes this belief palatable.
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Are you not claiming that people are more likely to beleive T is the agressor because they are racist - even though you couch it behind some wishy washy language?
 
What if...? said:
The "droopy drawers" style prevalent in hip hop culture requires them to co stantly pull up/hold up their pants.

This is a much more likely explanation.
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I don't believe T had the baggy pants on - so, no it's really not more likely. Although, it's obviously racist that you just assumed that is what it was. ;)
 
sharon said:
He didn't, buck..

Trayvon's cell phone was 45 feet south of the T next to his body.

If you believe George.. you have to believe that Trayvon was sitting on, punching, headbanging and smothering without ever letting go of his cellphone.
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I do seem to recall Z stating that it felt like T had somethign in his hands while he was hitting him. Could it have been a phone? Was just the initial hit with the phone in his hand and he dropped it shortly after? Was the phone in a pocket and it fell out while the activity was occuring? I have no idea, but since you were obviously there, do tell us.
 
Tettsuo said:
So you believe George's testimony is not given that he's established that he's willing to deceive the court to better his position?
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irrelevant to the validity of DeeDee's testimony
 
buck said:
I do seem to recall Z stating that it felt like T had somethign in his hands while he was hitting him. Could it have been a phone? Was just the initial hit with the phone in his hand and he dropped it shortly after? Was the phone in a pocket and it fell out while the activity was occuring? I have no idea, but since you were obviously there, do tell us.
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The phone was undamaged.

Trayvon did NOT beat George.. He punched him once in the third stage of the encounter and knocked him on his butt 45 feet from the T.
 
buck said:
I don't believe T had the baggy pants on - so, no it's really not more likely. Although, it's obviously racist that you just assumed that is what it was. ;)
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Why dont you believe he was wearing the hip hop uniform?

Serious question.

Scads of goofballs here in San Diego of all colors holding their stupid pants up.

Is it out of fashion where Ms from or something?
 
MaggieD said:
Hopefully, Zimmerman's defense will hammer this home.

My cousin, when she was 23 years old, rolled her car in an accident. She was treated and released at the hospital. Nothing visible on her head. Three months later, she died in her sleep from a subdural hematoma. (We know this because she had an autopsy.)

Head injuries are nothing to fool with. Glad you're okay.
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Hmmmm.... with your message --- I guess if I'm still on the forum in 4 months I'll know that I am ok. ;)
 
sharon said:
The phone was undamaged.

Trayvon did NOT beat George.. He punched him once in the third stage of the encounter and knocked him on his butt 45 feet from the T.
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then who was the person who broke zimmerman's nose?
 
What if...? said:
Why dont you believe he was wearing the hip hop uniform?

Serious question.

Scads of goofballs here in San Diego of all colors holding their stupid pants up.

Is it out of fashion where Ms from or something?
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Because, the questioning of Z by Serino gave me that impression and by looking at the 711 pictures, it does not appear overly baggy.
 
buck said:
I do not understand, why you suspect that flight worked when T still sees Z in near proximity. It seems to me that T would realize that running didn't work (since this guy is still right here) and another tact might be necessary.
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According to Zimmerman, he didn't see Martin after he hit the corner. That would mean Martin had already decided to come back and get Zimmerman and hid in the bushes by doing a ninja move pass Zimmerman.

Are you not claiming that people are more likely to beleive T is the agressor because they are racist - even though you couch it behind some wishy washy language?
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Racial bias does not equal racism. Alot of racial bias is isn't conscious and in my experience not malicious.

Example... if I see a bunch of young black boys standing on a corner, it puts me on edge. If I see a bunch of young white boys standing on a corner, I'm not on edge.

That's racial bias. Both groups are usually harmless, but we often have react differently based on race.
 
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