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Witness: Martin Attacked Zimmerman (2)

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joko104

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OscarB63 said:
Martin was suspended from school for drug possession .... That's a proven fact. Getting kicked out of school for drugs is.....wait for it...... A drug problem
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That's it and all that trial matters if there is one. So they also have to interview and interrogate every teacher and student at his school and put many of those on the stand if there is a trial.
 
joko104 said:
That's it and all that trial matters if there is one. So they also have to interview and interrogate every teacher and student at his school and put many of those on the stand if there is a trial.
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In the beginning, I was completely sympathetic to Martin. Then I became neutral. Now, I think it is probably gun laws. I think many fraidy cat type "Caspy Milktoasts" feel powerful with a gun and this clouds their judgement as to when their survival is at stake and are apt to use a firearm prematurely. I think Martin attacked Zimmerman, but would like to know the conversation in the moments just prior to the assault. What Zimmerman actually said at that moment is the key and the only one that will ever know is Zimmerman.
 
joko104 said:
Prosecutors don't prosecute their witnesses who lie. They do prosecute defense witnesses who do. The girlfriend can lie all she wants to.
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I don't know how comforting that would be to Mark Fuhrman.

joko104 said:
It would be almost bizarre if the defense allowed Zimmerman on the stand. He already told his side on 911 and police interviews and that would get into evidence. He would need tell it again to risk contradiction. Besides, as noted by some, "he looking like a White Supremacist."

OH, and if the defense did not INSIST that he be called George with the Spanish pronunciation (Whore-Hey') that defense attorney should be disbarred. I think the defense should insist on a Spanish interpreter, stating Zimmerman knows English, but being raised by a Peruvian mother he may not interpret words heard at a trial accurately or as fast as witnesses speak. If the court denied it, the defense should ask 100,000 question of prosecution witnesses to explain exactly, precisely what this and that word meant to make sure everyone including Zimmerman really understands.

And, since it would be a political case, the attorney should be a furious Latino attorney who every day after the court ended for the day give a fierce statement to the press declaring this is all because of Obama and Democrats acting like racists against Latinos. Ideally, organizing Latino protests in Miami about the president and Democrats crucifying a Latino because he didn't let Obama's-look-alike son murder Zimmerman. Run that through the election. For justice sake, do everything possible to make Obama and Democrats pay for using his/her client as their political prisoner stepping stone political tool with the African-American community.
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I don't really care about the politics of the case.

I just object to a man who defended himself being railroaded into something by people looking to use racial stereotypes for their own purposes.
 
DaveFagan said:
I think Martin attacked Zimmerman, but would like to know the conversation in the moments just prior to the assault. What Zimmerman actually said at that moment is the key and the only one that will ever know is Zimmerman.
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I don't think it makes all that much of a difference.

A person is allowed to defend themselves with necessary force but it's hard for me to fathom a conversation that could led Martin to believe he needed to bash Zimmerman's skull in to defend himself. Having the right to defend yourself does not mean you have the right to kill someone if it is unnecessary.
 
These "fraidycat" "trigger happy" terms used to describe people who legally own guns are childish and silly.

If gun owners are so trigger happy why isn't homicides by gun in the 10s of millions and not 12000 or so considering the number of Americans that have guns (1 in 4).
 
Such MASSIVE amounts of false, selected piece-meal and just made up information was presented in a week long orgy to embedded total hatred - and political correctness of that hatred - of Zimmerman I don't think hardly anyone can fully shake it.

I came to see it quite simply, though. I'm not white, black or brown - so all that just flies past me. In a neighborhood and now our culture in which no one gives a damn or will lift a finger to help someone else, Zimmerman gave a damn about others.

He made about 1 call per week to 911, exorbitantly LOW for a crime watch captain. Coming home, he saw someone looking in windows, just wandering around in the rain in the dark, and called 911. As he did so, that 6' 3" person came towards him angrily, while hiding something in his waistband and then reaching into his pocket. But then seeing Zimmerman on the phone and possibly to police, that suspicious person turned and ran. All those events on the 911 call, plus Martin acting like he was on drugs.

I'd call that suspicious. Would you?

He did try to see where Martin went in this high crime apartment complex of burglaries, violence, drugs and even murder - to tell the police where he went to. But seeing Zimmerman off the phone - and Zimmerman TOO hesitant to actually get his hand on his gun to be ready - he was slammed in the face knocking him down and then Martin beating his head into the concrete - aggravated assault now began attempted murder. As Zimmerman screamed for help, all the gutless don't-give-a-damn people instead run into or remain hiding in their apartments. Except for his gun, Zimmerman would have been an unsolved dead or massively brain-damaged-for-life Latino for which the only information was Zimmerman's 911 call of a black teenager in a hoodie - nothing more - meaning never solved.

MANY African-Americans who know Zimmerman personally have been brave enough to come forward to say he's not a racist, is a nice calm guy, politic and fun - and he even has African-American relatives so all the racist s...t is just that, a bunch of political BS.

Calling 911 and then watching where at that point a certainly suspicious person ran to isn't just NOT illegal, is not stalking and doesn't instigate anything but the police arriving. I think it is good citizenry and I'm very glad that good citizen did have a gun. Or should I better say "fellow human?" Both apply. A good man maybe is best. Most here instead wish he had been murdered.

Nor did he have ANYTHING to do with whether the police did or didn't do their job. Nothing. He cooperated.

I have NO dog in this fight. I DON'T have a white-guilt chip on my shoulder nor am I. Not black so I can't hope from poor-me advantage. Not brown so I have no reason to stand with a fellow Latino because I'm not that either.

I have nothing to gain, nothing to lose. To me, the facts say Zimmerman is one of the increasingly rare GOOD GUYS and one of the increasingly few people that might back you up if you were under attack. The minor dismissed case of him shoving a cop off his friend being roughed up by that cop during a arrest confirms that personality. He's not only some could be a friend, but a friend that at his risks will back you up. He gives a damn about others even at his own risks. A good man.

My sympathies now are towards Zimmerman. I think the s...t he and his family are being put through is as shameful about our overall legal/political system as about can be at this stage.

No matter where this goes, the massive harms done to Zimmerman and his family assure that the unwillingness of anyone to watch out for or care about others will still further vanish away. Sense of community or fellow human's oneness? Only when it to your benefit. Otherwise it is essentially illegal.
 
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joko104 said:
...He made about 1 call per week to 911, exorbitantly LOW for a crime watch captain...
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he's not a watch captian of anything. he's a self-described, self-nominated "captian" of an unofficial 1-man neighborhood watch team. :lamo

....As he did so, that 6' 3" person came towards him angrily, while apparently hiding something in his waistband and then reaching into his pocket....
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baseless allegations by a cop-beating, woman-beating, polic-rejected fat ****, who decided that Martin was an asshole and on drugs before even meeting him.

....But seeing Zimmerman off the phone - and Zimmerman TOO hesitant to actually get his hand on his gun to be ready - he was slammed in the face knocking him down and then Zimmerman beating his head into the concrete. As Zimmerman screamed for help, all the gutless don't-give-a-damn people instead run into or remain hiding in their apartments....
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more baseless allegations, and clear projection.

...I have NO dog in the fight. I DON'T have a white-guilt chip on my shoulder nor am I. I have nothing to gain, nothing to lose. To me, the facts say Zimmerman is one of the increasingly rare GOOD GUYS and one of the increasingly few people that might back you up if you were under attack....
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bull****. You have been against Martin and on Zimmy's side since DAY ONE.

your dishonest claims of prior balance & impartiality will fall on deaf ears, as your own posts prove it to all be lies & crap.
 
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It was recently mentioned in the closed thread about the Skittles and Iced Tea being irrelevant and the Skittles and Iced Tea may be irrelevant legally speaking, but they make for very powerful visual aids when describing why Trayvon Martin was walking through this neighborhood. No matter what occurred between Zimmerman and Martin it shows a certain level of innocence to many people across the country. He did not have drugs, alcohol, or weapons on him; he just was coming back from buying candy and a drink from the store. Additionally he was talking with his girlfriend on the phone on the way back to see his Dad and continue watching a basketball game.

It kind of makes Zimmerman out to be naive and clueless as a neighborhood watch guy that wrongly pre-judged Martin.
 
I've been following this story, as I hope people who are responding here have. I think I have come to the conclusion though of police malpractice. I mean, did it occur to anyone to do a drug test or a breathalyzer on someone who had just shot and killed a boy? That just makes no sense to me, especially in that Florida precinct where their police force has been accused in the past of racial profililng. Things aren't coincidental people. I mean a coincidence is, oh I went to the store and didn't have enough money, went to check out and right before I checked out I saw a 20 on the floor, just enough to pay for my groceries. That is a coincidence. Someone driving around the neighborhood at night looking for criminals, not a cop. Then finding a "suspect". I mean if this guy was so paranoid of this kid being a drug crazed crack addict, why didn't he just say, "Hey, what are you doing?" Why stalk him?

I'm not leaning towards either side, although I guess I should seeing what I wrote above, but given the fact that the only person that saw the crime is the shooter, we will never REALLY know. I guess the saying goes, "Its always the assholes who get away." :D
 
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Ric27.

Where were you going with the "willfully and knowingly" thing?

I'm saying it looks like SOMEBODY might not be telling the truth.

What were you saying?

(Don't think I've ever been in a thread all the way through)
 
My sympathies are still with Trayvon. Nothing that has been said about makes him deserving to die. Nothing that he did caused Zimmerman to get out of the car and pursue him. To me, that is the pivotal moment when this went from Neighborhood Watch action to vigilante-ism.

None of the evidence of drugs or anything else that has been presented constitute an offense for which Martin should be killed.

If anything, what this case points to is nothing to do with guns. It has to do with lack of specific regulations regarding Neighborhood Watch programs, and over-zealous self-defense laws. I don't think self-defense should extend to a situation you create by pursuing somebody. I would favor a law that somehow prevented Neighborhood Watch participants from deciding "I'm going to be a hero" unless they actually witness a crime and are trying to stop it.

At no point did Zimmerman witness Martin committing a crime. Maybe he was high. Maybe he has done some not so savory things in the past. Zimmerman didn't know that, and didn't see that happening. He saw this kid who he thought was "suspicious" and decided to play the hero and arrest him for no reason. I'm sorry, I can't feel sympathy for that. I can't support allowing armed people to confront anybody that they think is "suspicious."
 
joko104 said:
That's it and all that trial matters if there is one. So they also have to interview and interrogate every teacher and student at his school and put many of those on the stand if there is a trial.
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As always, you are grasping at straws to demonize the victim with your innuendo, conjecture and baloneys. So now people can be gunned down by stalkers if they have some kind of drug problems in their past? Is that what you are trying to say, joko? Who here had not had some kind of deliquent behaviors, such as stole a bubble gum from a store, committed some kind of graffiti, experimented with drugs and alcohol, etc in their childhood past whether being caught or not?

Until one day one of your loved ones suffers exactly the same fate as Trayvon Martin while minding his own business of walking home from a store and being gunned down just because a psychotic guy had an unfavorable opinion of him and the law enforcement won't do anything about it for his justice, until then your disgusting display of obsessive disparaging of the vicitm only demonstrate to us that you have something in common with his killer whom you are tirelessly defending at all costs.
 
"he saw this poor kid and decided to arrest him for no reason"

Ah I see were making more ludicrous and unsupported claims.

It appears that to continue to pursue this debate we must throw logic and evidence out the window.
 
joko104 said:
Such MASSIVE amounts of false, selected piece-meal and just made up information was presented in a week long orgy to embedded total hatred - and political correctness of that hatred - of Zimmerman I don't think hardly anyone can fully shake it.

I came to see it quite simply, though. I'm not white, black or brown - so all that just flies past me. In a neighborhood and now our culture in which no one gives a damn or will lift a finger to help someone else, Zimmerman gave a damn about others.

He made about 1 call per week to 911, exorbitantly LOW for a crime watch captain. Coming home, he saw someone looking in windows, just wandering around in the rain in the dark, and called 911. As he did so, that 6' 3" person came towards him angrily, while hiding something in his waistband and then reaching into his pocket. But then seeing Zimmerman on the phone and possibly to police, that suspicious person turned and ran. All those events on the 911 call, plus Martin acting like he was on drugs.

I'd call that suspicious. Would you? . . . etc.
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On the first days of this thread, I was rabidly blaming Zimmerman -- I let my emotions get in the way of known facts, in my opinion. I'm pretty much ready to let the whole subject rest, unless I happen to get all ginned up once again for some reason.

We are a nation that believes one is innocent until proven guilty. If there are no other witnesses, and evidence cannot prove to the contrary, then we are bound by our own ethical system to believe Zimmerman's accounting of events.

I've seen neighbors talk about Zimmerman as a "nice guy" who cared about the neighborhood...two of them black and one of them white. I heard Zimmerman's 911 call in its entirety and did not hear a Rambo-in-training. I heard a concerned citizen. I've read the homeowners' association newsletter that they supported and had confidence in Zimmerman as part of their Neighborhood Watch.

This has just worn me out.

If there is anything this should "teach," it is that every homocide should require a hearing of some sort to flesh out the details and help people understand why the state's attorney decides to either prosecute or not. After all, every cop shooting is thoroughly investigated. Why should a private citizen be held to a lesser standard?

I've read posts from people who want to kill Zimmerman's children...kill Martin...most are not that extreme, but some have been. Makes me want to take a shower when I think about them.

I wish I knew what triggered this massive media attack on Zimmerman. I read Martin's Facebook Wall...it seems to be shut down now, or at least no one is commenting on it...but the posts up until March 7th, from the time Martin was killed, were friends mourning his death. There was not one post speculating on it being murder. Simply sadness for a lost friend. When did that all change?

This is a tragic incident. Awful. Maybe Zimmerman is lying. Maybe he's telling the absolute truth. But we do not/should not completely destroy a man's life if it cannot be proven that he did lie. That's just plain wrong.
 
Paratrooper said:
"he saw this poor kid and decided to arrest him for no reason"

Ah I see were making more ludicrous and unsupported claims.

It appears that to continue to pursue this debate we must throw logic and evidence out the window.
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Use an actual quote.

Never said "this poor kid" I said "this kid." He was 17, still a kid in my book.

Or is there evidence that gave Zimmerman any reason to do anything? What was it?
 
My sympathies are with Trayvon and his family.

why? cause he went to 7-11 to buy some ice tea & Skittles, and never made it home alive, cause some fat **** with anger issues decided to stick his nose where it didn't belong.

and now, because he was a nosey son of a bitch, a 17 year-old is dead and Zimmy has death threats against him.
 
Thunder said:
My sympathies are with Trayvon and his family.

why? cause he went to 7-11 to buy some ice tea & Skittles, and never made it home alive, cause some fat **** with anger issues decided to stick his nose where it didn't belong.

and now, because he was a nosey son of a bitch, a 17 year-old is dead and Zimmy has death threats against him.
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Or, which evidence seems to support, he would be alive if he hadnt decided to assault someone. YOu cant go around beating the crap out of people because you don't like them. Trayvon doesn't assault martin, trayvon is likely alive today.

Trayvon is not dead because of zimmermans anger, he is dead because of his own.
 
MaggieD said:
On the first days of this thread, I was rabidly blaming Zimmerman -- I let my emotions get in the way of known facts, in my opinion. I'm pretty much ready to let the whole subject rest, unless I happen to get all ginned up once again for some reason.

We are a nation that believes one is innocent until proven guilty. If there are no other witnesses, and evidence cannot prove to the contrary, then we are bound by our own ethical system to believe Zimmerman's accounting of events.

I've seen neighbors talk about Zimmerman as a "nice guy" who cared about the neighborhood...two of them black and one of them white. I heard Zimmerman's 911 call in its entirety and did not hear a Rambo-in-training. I heard a concerned citizen. I've read the homeowners' association newsletter that they supported and had confidence in Zimmerman as part of their Neighborhood Watch.

This has just worn me out.

If there is anything this should "teach," it is that every homocide should require a hearing of some sort to flesh out the details and help people understand why the state's attorney decides to either prosecute or not. After all, every cop shooting is thoroughly investigated. Why should a private citizen be held to a lesser standard?

I've read posts from people who want to kill Zimmerman's children...kill Martin...most are not that extreme, but some have been. Makes me want to take a shower when I think about them.

I wish I knew what triggered this massive media attack on Zimmerman. I read Martin's Facebook Wall...it seems to be shut down now, or at least no one is commenting on it...but the posts up until March 7th, from the time Martin was killed, were friends mourning his death. There was not one post speculating on it being murder. Simply sadness for a lost friend. When did that all change?

This is a tragic incident. Awful. Maybe Zimmerman is lying. Maybe he's telling the absolute truth. But we do not/should not completely destroy a man's life if it cannot be proven that he did lie. That's just plain wrong.
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I don't know why we don't just say, "Well Zimmerman, you may be lying you may not be, but given the situation we are going to revoke your right to own a gun." How would this be unfair. I think if someone shoots and kills someone (and there is any doubt about what happened), then we should remove their right to own a gun, problem solved... No one goes to jail, no one gets mad, no one gets fired...
 
muciti said:
Or, which evidence seems to support, he would be alive if he hadnt decided to assault someone. YOu cant go around beating the crap out of people because you don't like them. Trayvon doesn't assault martin, trayvon is likely alive today.

Trayvon is not dead because of zimmermans anger, he is dead because of his own.
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Right, so in light of the other evidence stated, IE that Trayvon had gone to the store to buy skittles, Zimmerman had called the police 50 times in a year (a little paranoid if you ask me), the person at the 911 station told him to NOT follow him, the fact that he is black (and yes, people still do fear blacks), all of this still paints Zimmerman as a truthful person? You just buy his story? What about the other phone call where you hear Martin screaming for help? Why would someone who had just chased down a suspicious person be yelling for help and then subsequently shoot him? If this paints a picture of a truthful person, I don't know what planet you're on. Something is fishy IMHO.

Then again, police do withhold information so that way if someone comes up and says, "Yeah I saw the shooting", they can see if he is lying if he doesn't know a withheld fact.
 
muciti said:
Or, which evidence seems to support, he would be alive if he hadnt decided to assault someone. YOu cant go around beating the crap out of people because you don't like them. Trayvon doesn't assault martin, trayvon is likely alive today.

Trayvon is not dead because of zimmermans anger, he is dead because of his own.
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had Zimmerman minded his ****ing business, Trayvon would be alive and Zimmy would still be a lonely fat-ass with anger issues.

Stand Your Ground, says that Trayvon had EVERY right to stand his ground and confront Zimmerman, since Zimmerman was following him in a car and on foot.

The LAW...is on Trayvon's side. That's possibly why Zimmerman blew him away.
 
Weeks before the media reported on this tragic case I read about it from the email I received from the public appeal of one of the deceased's parents (Tracy Martin) through change.com urging the Sanford police dept to do their job in the investigation and calling for the prosecution of the killer of his son, Trayvon Martin.

I immediately signed the petition after reading the story because the way the Sanford police handled the case was very sloppy and their hasty decision to simply accept the killer's account as truth given the circumstances was not only premature but very callous. Normally I would add my comment when I signed the petition. But, at that time I only hear the story from one side and all I could demand is for a thorough investigation and then let the justice take its course in the court of law where the jury will hear all the evidence and decide on the case which certainly merit such course of action given the circumstances that led up to the tragic death of an unarmed young life who was merely walking home from the store.

There is no way a decent human being who has read about this case and who has any sense of justice and fairness will not be outrage at the way this case was handled. It is infuriating to hear the police chief coming out with a nonsensical reason for justifying the dismissal of the case.

The police chief claimed,

“In this case Mr. Zimmerman has made the statement of self-defense,” Lee said. “Until we can establish probable cause to dispute that, we don’t have the grounds to arrest him.”

Sanford Police Recommended Charging Zimmerman | ThinkProgress

Given what we knew of the circumstances preceding the tragic death of Trayvon, that Zimmerman had made up his mind that Trayvon was up to no good, that he voiced frustration about "they always get away", that he was armed and was going to follow Trayvon despite being told by the dispatcher not to and given what Trayvon's girlfriend had heard the very moment of the tragic confrontation just before his death, and many many more, how can a police chief even had the audacity to tell the public they had no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman, not even for negligent homicide? Why couldn't he let the jury decide instead of making himself the judge and jury to summarily dismiss the case without any good reason?

That is what the public outrage is all about. Yet, you have people coming out of the woods twisting or stretching the facts and making up all sort of stuffs to demonise the victim in order to defend the action of the killer. Even with all the recent leaks from many sources with clear intent to disparage Trayvon, they have nothing whatsoever with their desperate grasp at irrevant strawmans at ad hom on the victim. Any person with a rationale mind should be able to see that circus.

But, now we know the police chief and the State Attorney Norman Wolfinger were behind all these excuses to let the killer walk away scotch free. But why? What's their motive? Why were previous cases against Zimmerman for domestic violence, battery against police officer and resisting arrest all mysteriously being dropped and case file closed without any reasons given? Something didn't add up.
　
Now I heard about these which the media haven't reported:

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests | Rolling Out - Black News, Celebrity Videos, Entertainment, Business & Politics

George Zimmerman, Son of a Retired Judge, Has 3 Closed Arrests | Rolling Out - Black News, Celebrity Videos, Entertainment, Business & Politics
　
If the story is true, somebody really need to be investigated and those criminals need to be exposed and brought to justice in order to appease the rage of the masses.
 
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muciti said:
Or, which evidence seems to support, he would be alive if he hadnt decided to assault someone. YOu cant go around beating the crap out of people because you don't like them. Trayvon doesn't assault martin, trayvon is likely alive today.

Trayvon is not dead because of zimmermans anger, he is dead because of his own.
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It's funny that you'd bring up the word 'evidence' and them make unsupported claims about who did what.
 
muciti said:
Or, which evidence seems to support, he would be alive if he hadnt decided to assault someone. YOu cant go around beating the crap out of people because you don't like them. Trayvon doesn't assault martin, trayvon is likely alive today.

Trayvon is not dead because of zimmermans anger, he is dead because of his own.
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None of that is certain. Nobody said they saw the beginning of the altercation. And nobody has said they saw the shot that ended it.
 
Jryan said:
I don't know why we don't just say, "Well Zimmerman, you may be lying you may not be, but given the situation we are going to revoke your right to own a gun." How would this be unfair. I think if someone shoots and kills someone (and there is any doubt about what happened), then we should remove their right to own a gun, problem solved... No one goes to jail, no one gets mad, no one gets fired...[/QUOTE]

So....if you defend yourself once in your life with a gun, you give up the right to defend yourself with a gun in an attack again?
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