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Let's talk about California Fire Management + CA COMPETENCE

Hawkeye10 said:
But you know.....they never even had a plan for how to warn people now that the landlines are so often gone, and they were very quiet at the front end, and just as with 9/11 in NYC one of the biggest problems trying to get this fire down has been that there is not one communication system for all which was of course completely forseeable yet nothing was ever done.

"This is the best we can do folks" is not going to work here.
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What is your suggestion?

What do you do when the fires take out the cell towers?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
A free lance journalist who lives in the disaster area has a good piece up on CNN about what a disaster communications have been, which is almost all due to California never bothering to have a plan in my opinion, California not doing the work...again.... so its citizens suffer:


This is what Californians really needed during the fires (Opinion) - CNN
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and the "citizens" did nothing to help themselves throughout the year. No defensible space created to protect the home.
imo, the govt. and the citizens both played a role in the disaster.

I see blame someone else mentality.

I agree that alerts could have been better. Let's all raise taxes to pay for the upgrades.
 
In response, PG&E said that “hurricane strength winds in excess of 75 mph in some cases” had damaged their equipment, but they said it was too early to speculate about what started the fires.
However, wind speeds were only about half that level, as the lines started to come down, the weather station records show. At a weather station in north Santa Rosa where the Tubbs fire started, the peak wind gusts at 9:29 p.m. hit 30 mph. An hour later, they were 41 mph. Similarly, at another weather station east of the city of Napa, on Atlas Peak, where the Atlas fire started, wind gusts at 9:29 p.m. peaked at 32 mph. An hour later they were 30 mph.

Both speeds were substantially under the speed that power lines must be able to withstand winds under state law: at least 56 mph. “This is classic PG&E — trying to spin things without first taking a look at the hard facts,” said Burlingame attorney Frank Pitre. “The winds were well within the threshold of design standards. If they failed, this was a failure in their system.”
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Fire cause mystery: Winds not 'hurricane strength' as PG&E said

Why am I not surprised......
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Fire cause mystery: Winds not 'hurricane strength' as PG&E said

Why am I not surprised......
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By what?

You were wrong about the "no notice" thing.

In the Napa-Sonoma area, one weather station used by the National Weather Service, on Hawkeye Peak near Geyserville, recorded gusts of 79 mph at 11:56 pm on Sunday night. But gusts are defined as lasting only 3 to 5 seconds, and the sustained wind speed there at that time was 48 mph. Also, Hawkeye Peak is 22 miles north of Santa Rosa and 50 miles north of Napa, far from where the major fires broke out.

“It was a strong wind event, but not unprecedented,” Jan Null, a meteorologist with Golden Gate Weather Services in Saratoga, said of the winds Sunday night.

Strong windstorms commonly send trees into power poles, cutting off electricity to thousands of customers. But what was different on Sunday night was the time of year: In the winter, downed power lines don’t cause giant conflagrations.

“Trees and power lines go down in winter winds all the time,” he said. “But that’s on wet ground, not ground that is tinder dry.”

“We’ve had stronger wind events, but it was during a different time of year,” Null said. “This was a matter of everything lining up” to bring down poles and wires.
 
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Fledermaus said:
By what?

You were wrong about the "no notice" thing.
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A great many people had no notice, because there was no plan, and what they did worked poorly.

This is how power loses the people, especially if they refuse to get better after this failure.

One of the many things they need to do is to devise a warning system that works.

And that has to be targeted, needing to do whole counties is too big.

We used to be able to do it block by block.

We need something like that.

WE USED TO BE BETTER
 
Hawkeye10 said:
A great many people had no notice, because there was no plan, and what they did worked poorly.

This is how power loses the people, especially if they refuse to get better after this failure.

One of the many things they need to do is to devise a warning system that works.

And that has to be targeted, needing to do whole counties is too big.

We used to be able to do it block by block.

We need something like that.

WE USED TO BE BETTER
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You blathered that there was NO notice.

"You and me know that, surely fire experts in California know that too, so why did they for so long act like this was no big deal, why were they not out warning people at the front end " Hey Ya'll, this could be a problem, if you live in these counties have your bags packed, pay close attention to the news, and be ready to flee, these fires can be deadly"?

They said almost nothing, they did not want to scare people, they say now they thought that their fire fighters would be able to handle it. Have you listened to some of these first responders....they were getting their asses kicked on these fires from the get go, they knew it, they feel bad about it, surely their bosses knew.

And said nothing. "

They WERE warning people.

170,000 landlines are not "nothing" or "almost nothing".

You stated "there was no plan".

There IS a plan. One that will be improved after lessons learned.

And "targeted"? WTH?

Please share your solution.

Your hyperbole and misrepresentation is neither required nor desired.
 
Fledermaus said:
You blathered that there was NO notice.

"You and me know that, surely fire experts in California know that too, so why did they for so long act like this was no big deal, why were they not out warning people at the front end " Hey Ya'll, this could be a problem, if you live in these counties have your bags packed, pay close attention to the news, and be ready to flee, these fires can be deadly"?

They said almost nothing, they did not want to scare people, they say now they thought that their fire fighters would be able to handle it. Have you listened to some of these first responders....they were getting their asses kicked on these fires from the get go, they knew it, they feel bad about it, surely their bosses knew.

And said nothing. "

They WERE warning people.

170,000 landlines are not "nothing" or "almost nothing".

You stated "there was no plan".

There IS a plan. One that will be improved after lessons learned.

And "targeted"? WTH?

Please share your solution.

Your hyperbole and misrepresentation is neither required nor desired.
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The land lines is kinda nothing now because there are so few.

Ya they had a plan, the plan was to use the new cell phone alert system but then see when the fires hit the ones who were supposed to activate it started thinking that since they have to do it county by county maybe they cause too much harm by scaring people who dont need to be scared because they live in a safe place, and if they get scared they will clog the roads so the fire trucks cant do their thing..... all these people who should stay at home and would if they had better info will clog the roads...so they did not use it. But see this should have been thought of years ago by the geniuses who thought up this idea and told the locals that this was the plan.

There is also another fatal flaw in "The Plan"....by the time they actually used the cell alert many of the cell towers were fried so nothing happened.

So I say they had no plan because the "plan" was BS and was not used because it was judged at the time of crisis to be a bad idea.

We need a real plan, and we need to figure out that BS IS BS in the planning stages not during the crisis like here.

Like in the olden days.
 
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In other news the one and only 747 fire fighter is hard on the job.

Maybe we buy a few more, because it is perfect on this job.

It's ability to regulate drops comes in real handy.
 
Every person in California that has access to local news channels was well aware by the end of last week that a Red Flag Fire Danger had been declared. The north winds were coming, a California map showing the counties that had Red Flag Warnings were clearly delineated, allowing the applicable county agencies to put their emergency systems in place. These are county-wide agencies, not state-wide agencies. If the event was so fast-moving and widespread, as it was in several of those Red Flagged counties that it wiped out communications in affected areas, that is not the state's fault, it's not the county's fault. Blame god if you want.

The fire went from nonexistent to engulfing entire subdivisions with hundreds of homes in minutes. Not hours, minutes. At one point, fires in Sonoma County were burning an area the size of a football field every 60 seconds. Those football-field acres were filled with homes, dozens of homes.

They are still finding human bones and teeth in the ashes; 400 people are still missing amid the 6,000 structures destroyed so far. Another "wind event" will start tomorrow, and the fires are still burning. More homes are likely to be engulfed, more people are likely to die.

So to those of you who delight in the people of California's misery wouldn't mind waiting until we've found and buried our dead before chortling and finger-pointing, I'd seriously appreciate it.
 
DiAnna said:
Every person in California that has access to local news channels was well aware by the end of last week that a Red Flag Fire Danger had been declared. The north winds were coming, a California map showing the counties that had Red Flag Warnings were clearly delineated, allowing the applicable county agencies to put their emergency systems in place. These are county-wide agencies, not state-wide agencies. If the event was so fast-moving and widespread, as it was in several of those Red Flagged counties that it wiped out communications in affected areas, that is not the state's fault, it's not the county's fault. Blame god if you want.

The fire went from nonexistent to engulfing entire subdivisions with hundreds of homes in minutes. Not hours, minutes. At one point, fires in Sonoma County were burning an area the size of a football field every 60 seconds. Those football-field acres were filled with homes, dozens of homes.

They are still finding human bones and teeth in the ashes; 400 people are still missing amid the 6,000 structures destroyed so far. Another "wind event" will start tomorrow, and the fires are still burning. More homes are likely to be engulfed, more people are likely to die.

So to those of you who delight in the people of California's misery wouldn't mind waiting until we've found and buried our dead before chortling and finger-pointing, I'd seriously appreciate it.
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Greetings, DiAnna. :2wave:

I thought about you several different times today, and even sent prayers for your safety. I'm so glad to see you're okay! So sad to read things like this.... :boohoo:
 
Hawkeye10 said:
The land lines is kinda nothing now because there are so few.

Ya they had a plan, the plan was to use the new cell phone alert system but then see when the fires hit the ones who were supposed to activate it started thinking that since they have to do it county by county maybe they cause too much harm by scaring people who dont need to be scared because they live in a safe place, and if they get scared they will clog the roads so the fire trucks cant do their thing..... all these people who should stay at home and would if they had better info will clog the roads...so they did not use it. But see this should have been thought of years ago by the geniuses who thought up this idea and told the locals that this was the plan.

There is also another fatal flaw in "The Plan"....by the time they actually used the cell alert many of the cell towers were fried so nothing happened.

So I say they had no plan because the "plan" was BS and was not used because it was judged at the time of crisis to be a bad idea.

We need a real plan, and we need to figure out that BS IS BS in the planning stages not during the crisis like here.

Like in the olden days.
Click to expand...

Like in the "olden days"?

When there was no reverse 9/11, no social media, no SoCoAlert service, no Nixle?

The "olden days" when I found out the Disney fire was blocks away because the radio station commented on it?

"No plan" is a lie.

They "said nothing" is a lie.

Landlines "kinda nothing" is BS as 170,000 were used.

Please share your solution.

Your hyperbole and misrepresentation is neither required nor desired.
 
polgara said:
Greetings, DiAnna. :2wave:

I thought about you several different times today, and even sent prayers for your safety. I'm so glad to see you're okay! So sad to read things like this.... :boohoo:
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How kind of you polgara. Thank you. *hugs*
 
These fires are huge... CA gets huge fires almost every year... we used to live in the mountains above Calistoga. Crazy to see what it is like now.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
In other news the one and only 747 fire fighter is hard on the job.

Maybe we buy a few more, because it is perfect on this job.

It's ability to regulate drops comes in real handy.
Click to expand...

Aerial attacks on wind-driven fires are virtually useless. The erratic winds will cause most water or fire-retardant drops to miss their target, and disperse them so much that they don't do any good even where they land. Even if the drop hits its target, it hardly matters; the fire has already spread beyond that point. It is also very unsafe to fly in such conditions, and foolish to even try when the chances of success are almost zero.

The 2007 Fallbrook Fire: A Fire In A Suburban Rural Landscape





Tell us more.
 
DiAnna said:
How kind of you polgara. Thank you. *hugs*
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What general area are you in?

I lived 20 years in SoCal and about 10 outside Calistoga and Sebastopol. We saw more fires in SoCal amazingly.
 
Bodhisattva said:
What general area are you in?

I lived 20 years in SoCal and about 10 outside Calistoga and Sebastopol. We saw more fires in SoCal amazingly.
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Sierra foothills, north of Sac.
 
Bodhisattva said:
What general area are you in?

I lived 20 years in SoCal and about 10 outside Calistoga and Sebastopol. We saw more fires in SoCal amazingly.
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Where in SoCal? (I may have asked you before)

For me, North SD county, Orange County (Could see Disney fireworks off back steps)... North Cal was Alameda and Vallejo.
 
Fledermaus said:
Aerial attacks on wind-driven fires are virtually useless. The erratic winds will cause most water or fire-retardant drops to miss their target, and disperse them so much that they don't do any good even where they land. Even if the drop hits its target, it hardly matters; the fire has already spread beyond that point. It is also very unsafe to fly in such conditions, and foolish to even try when the chances of success are almost zero.

The 2007 Fallbrook Fire: A Fire In A Suburban Rural Landscape





Tell us more.
Click to expand...

I think they go far, this is a computer controlled system that they are very proud of, they claim that they can dump on target very very well, and I have not heard them put in a wind exception. I was researching this thing sometime back for some reason which is why I now something about it, and is why I brought it up as well.
 
Fledermaus said:
Like in the "olden days"?

When there was no reverse 9/11, no social media, no SoCoAlert service, no Nixle?

The "olden days" when I found out the Disney fire was blocks away because the radio station commented on it?

"No plan" is a lie.

They "said nothing" is a lie.

Landlines "kinda nothing" is BS as 170,000 were used.

Please share your solution.

Your hyperbole and misrepresentation is neither required nor desired.
Click to expand...

I dont know the solution but Silicon Valley is right THERE, and we know what they can do, about how some of them can still rise to the occasion.

We we get a couple of them on the job?

MAYBE?
 
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Bodhisattva said:
Out towards Grass Valey? We have some friends there.
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We are in Nevada County, yes. There are still two uncontained fires about 30 miles north of us. The wind will change this weekend, and those fires will either turn south into the already burned area, where almost 300 structures have been lost, or will turn south into a new fuel source and head right for us.

You should check on your friends. Things are bad up there.
 
Fledermaus said:
Where in SoCal? (I may have asked you before)

For me, North SD county, Orange County (Could see Disney fireworks off back steps)... North Cal was Alameda and Vallejo.
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Grew up in Huntington Beach by the Bolsa Chica Wetlands then lived in Newport for about ten years on the peninsula... 15th Street. Been to Disneyland at least 50 times.

My first teaching job was in Vallejo. Was living in Sebastopol so you know what kind of drive that is. Beautiful but looong. Both my kids were born in Santa Rosa hospital which was evacuated last week... i heard.

Used to surf Trestles and most the other breaks and down to Blacks and San O.
 
DiAnna said:
We are in Nevada County, yes. There are still two uncontained fires about 30 miles north of us. The wind will change this weekend, and those fires will either turn south into the already burned area, where almost 300 structures have been lost, or will turn south into a new fuel source and head right for us.

You should check on your friends. Things are bad up there.
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They are at there other house down in Corona Del Mar... so safe.

Jeez... my mom keeps updating me on the situation. Stay safe. These fires are crazy and kiwis are concerned too. A couple guys in my fire brigade volunteered and are over there helping now. Not sure where.
 
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