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Thread: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    He is perfectly within his rights to call himself an engineer because he is one. He did not claim to be licensed in Oregon. The First Amendment makes no mention of a certification requirement to engage in public discussion, or a requirement to disavow undisputed educational credentials.
    Not when he misrepresents himself to an official board. To the board he is not a recognized engineer. He has educational requirements. He is not certified. He claims himself to be an "excellent" engineer. Fine, maybe he is. There will also be not so excellent engineers out there. The board has no way to know who is who unless the individual passes the licensing tests. He misrepresents himself and does so repeatedly after being told he does not qualify.

    Experts are important to our society. We rely on them. They must be properly vetted. If the guy will not play by the rules, then he should give it up.

    He is free by the 1st Amendment to say whatever he wants in public, but not to an official board who's job it is to ensure competence. He must be a licensed engineer to have a voice in that setting. He does not. Period.
    "Science is a way of thinking much more than it is a body of knowledge."

    -Carl Sagan

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell797 View Post
    Not when he misrepresents himself to an official board. To the board he is not a recognized engineer. He has educational requirements. He is not certified. He claims himself to be an "excellent" engineer. Fine, maybe he is. There will also be not so excellent engineers out there. The board has no way to know who is who unless the individual passes the licensing tests. He misrepresents himself and does so repeatedly after being told he does not qualify.

    Experts are important to our society. We rely on them. They must be properly vetted. If the guy will not play by the rules, then he should give it up.

    He is free by the 1st Amendment to say whatever he wants in public, but not to an official board who's job it is to ensure competence. He must be a licensed engineer to have a voice in that setting. He does not. Period.
    Even the board is a public body to which any citizen may address remarks. They are just rent-seeking protectionists, and the courts will slap them down.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Whatever happened to the first amendment. I hope this law gets struck down in federal court.

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by humbolt View Post
    Not unless the state says so, apparently. These days you can't make a cup of coffee and officially call it coffee unless you have the proper coffee certification. This whole certification frenzy is an attempt to make exclusive domains out of ordinary professions.
    Ikr, many states license different areas. While licensing jobs which may have some risks involved for customers (such as food handling) makes some sense, other occupations such as hairdressers, florists, and those who work with dead people have no risks to other people if the person fails at his job.

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    This is malicious prosecution plain and simple.
    This can be brought to light by simply compelling the plaintiff, namely the city itself, to admit that it would take his advice under advisement if he WERE licensed in the State of Oregon, therefore is ANOTHER licensed engineer stated the same criticisms, would they be obliged?
    If they say that they are not, then there can be no other reason for them to benefit from fining the defendant except to quash his opinions for a profit.

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by Masterhawk View Post
    Ikr, many states license different areas. While licensing jobs which may have some risks involved for customers (such as food handling) makes some sense, other occupations such as hairdressers, florists, and those who work with dead people have no risks to other people if the person fails at his job.
    The result is an attempt to claim that a work product is satisfactory because the producer is certified. That is silly on it's face. It's also a means by which government entities can attempt to hold themselves harmless in the event a work product is unsatisfactory.

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    This would be funny if it were not so sadly reminiscent of 1984 and Brave New World. One can only hope the author is right and these over-zealous regulators will be publicly slapped down.

    Oregon is suing engineers for . . . speaking up about engineering?


    A man is fined $500 for sharing his opinion, or what the state calls practicing engineering without a license.







    Beginning this week, Washington hopes that infrastructure, which is a product of civil engineering, will be much discussed. But if you find yourself in Oregon, keep your opinions to yourself, lest you get fined $500 for practicing engineering without a license. This happened to Mats Jarlstrom as a result of events that would be comic if they were not symptoms of something sinister.
    Jarlstrom’s troubles began when his wife got a $150 red-light-camera ticket. He became interested in the timing of traffic lights and decided there was something wrong with the formula used in Oregon and elsewhere to time how long traffic lights stay yellow as they transition from green to red. He began thinking, Googling, corresponding and — here he made his big mistake — talking about this subject. He has ignored repeated demands by the Oregon State Board of Examiners for Engineering and Land Surveying that he pipe down. So the board considers him to be, like Jesse James, Al Capone and John Dillinger, a dangerous recidivist.
    Not that it should matter, but Jarlstrom actually is an engineer. He has a degree in electrical engineering, served in a technical capacity in the Swedish air force and worked for Sweden’s Luxor Electronics before immigrating to the United States in 1992. He is, however, not licensed by Oregon to “practice engineering” — design skyscrapers, bridges, etc. — so, according to the board, he should not be allowed to talk about engineering or even call himself an engineer. Only those the board licenses are admitted to the clerisy uniquely entitled to publicly discuss engineering. . . .
    He lives in Beaverton; most likely the fine was trivial to him. ANd well its Beaverton, it is a rich and snobby area.

    That being said here is the civil-rights lawsuit that the guy filed.

    http://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/201...omplaint-1.pdf

    The stink seems to be over the fact that Järlström claims to be an engineer. He could have cleared this up at the beginning by asserting that he is an amateur engineer and not a licensed engineer. Or he could have just not claimed to be an engineer and presented his findings while expressing his background in the field of electronics.

    He was fined for claiming to be a an engineer and presenting information under that guise. In the State of Oregon to be considered an official engineer you need to be certified. If he wasnt being a snob and just said that he was an amateur engineer then there wouldnt be a big stink. There are board certified engineers for the same reason that there are building regulations; safety.

    He has a background in engineering, might even be good at it. But he should have presented himself that way. But instead he presented himself as an engineer without indicating it as an engineer background and not certified.

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    He lives in Beaverton; most likely the fine was trivial to him. ANd well its Beaverton, it is a rich and snobby area.

    That being said here is the civil-rights lawsuit that the guy filed.

    http://ij.org/wp-content/uploads/201...omplaint-1.pdf

    The stink seems to be over the fact that Järlström claims to be an engineer. He could have cleared this up at the beginning by asserting that he is an amateur engineer and not a licensed engineer. Or he could have just not claimed to be an engineer and presented his findings while expressing his background in the field of electronics.

    He was fined for claiming to be a an engineer and presenting information under that guise. In the State of Oregon to be considered an official engineer you need to be certified. If he wasnt being a snob and just said that he was an amateur engineer then there wouldnt be a big stink. There are board certified engineers for the same reason that there are building regulations; safety.

    He has a background in engineering, might even be good at it. But he should have presented himself that way. But instead he presented himself as an engineer without indicating it as an engineer background and not certified.
    It's public comment on a public issue. He's not acting as an engineer on anyone's behalf. He merely cited his qualifications to explain why he took up the issue. The only issue here is the First Amendment, and the rent-seeking enemies of free speech will be slapped down, to the benefit of all of us.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    It's public comment on a public issue. He's not acting as an engineer on anyone's behalf. He merely cited his qualifications to explain why he took up the issue. The only issue here is the First Amendment, and the rent-seeking enemies of free speech will be slapped down, to the benefit of all of us.
    As I said the guy went around presenting himself as an engineer not stating that he isnt a licensed engineer. Had he stated that he was an licensed engineer he wouldnt have been fined. The guy specifically contacted the board that licenses engineers and claimed that he was an engineer. It is one thing to go on the local news and title yourself as an engineer, but contacting the board and claiming to be an engineer is going to get them to check and see. Clearly the problem id him making a claim that isnt true; he isnt a licensed engineer. A simple fix would have been for him to do the obvious: make it clear that he isnt licensed. Then he would be able to speak freely. Which he could have done at anytime. But instead he is conflating this to make his lawsuit viable. He wants to be able to call himself an engineer without bothering to prove his educational background.

    If he and titled himself an amateur engineer nothing would have come of it. Its the same a doctor that isnt licensed, he has rules and regulations that he must obey or he will get in trouble. Either this guy is stupid or has no understanding of how come engineers need to be board certified. You dont want someone just making **** up when it comes to safety.

    Again there was an option that this guy could have used to still get his message out. He simply could have expressed that he was not a board certified engineer. But he refuses to do that, why?

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    Re: Stupid Over-Regulation in Oregon

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFromAll View Post
    As I said the guy went around presenting himself as an engineer not stating that he isnt a licensed engineer. Had he stated that he was an licensed engineer he wouldnt have been fined. The guy specifically contacted the board that licenses engineers and claimed that he was an engineer. It is one thing to go on the local news and title yourself as an engineer, but contacting the board and claiming to be an engineer is going to get them to check and see. Clearly the problem id him making a claim that isnt true; he isnt a licensed engineer. A simple fix would have been for him to do the obvious: make it clear that he isnt licensed. Then he would be able to speak freely. Which he could have done at anytime. But instead he is conflating this to make his lawsuit viable. He wants to be able to call himself an engineer without bothering to prove his educational background.

    If he and titled himself an amateur engineer nothing would have come of it. Its the same a doctor that isnt licensed, he has rules and regulations that he must obey or he will get in trouble. Either this guy is stupid or has no understanding of how come engineers need to be board certified. You dont want someone just making **** up when it comes to safety.

    Again there was an option that this guy could have used to still get his message out. He simply could have expressed that he was not a board certified engineer. But he refuses to do that, why?
    There's no "went around." He was in a public forum. He could have called himself a witch doctor and it still would not have had any impact on his First Amendment right to speak.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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