• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

The victim complex of prohibitionists

D

DesertSands

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 1, 2017
Messages
25
Reaction score
6
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Undisclosed
Seems alot of the time when i read arguments or participate in debates with the other side a common theme seems to always emerge. Some sense of victimization by your use. Iv'e even had one person on another site tell me to: get an island and suck up all the drugs you want" Heres a quote from that that thread.


just don't make me pay for your arrest, court and lawyer costs, your unemployment when you lose your job, your family's Welfare and healthcare costs, and so on. And don't make me a victim of your crimes when you need money to buy drugs, don't reduce property values by having dope houses on every block, and don't go near my kid with your drugs. In other words, go to an island where you can't do any harm to anyone and suck up all the drugs you want.
Click to expand...

Where does this sort of victim thing come from? propaganda? a ****ty person from their past who happened to smoke pot? Either way i dont know, but it's fun countering that sort of argument when they make it. Personally i think Some of these people might have seen a substance destroy the lives of someone close to them but fundamentally I think many of them are authoritarian, They look at it as substances that destroy communities but often ignore the correlation with prohibition, the black market and supply and demand. I think there is irony to be found when someone does not want to be negatively affected by someone else's decisions, but promotes the most punitive consequences for the decisions of others, which don't necessarily even affect anyone.

The prohibitionist mindset is rife with hypocrisy. The property values argument has been used in so many other arguments, and it's always just an excuse to justify their own stance on what is truly right.
 
I agree totally with the quoted portion. Addicts seem to be some of the most self absorbed, self centered assholes out there.
 
X Factor said:
I agree totally with the quoted portion. Addicts seem to be some of the most self absorbed, self centered assholes out there.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'mma leanin' more that way too.

And I'm no drug prohibitionist.
 
X Factor said:
I agree totally with the quoted portion. Addicts seem to be some of the most self absorbed, self centered assholes out there.
Click to expand...
Id agree if we were talking hard drugs like heroin and meth but this was about pot. hard to wrap my head around how smoking a bowl in your own house victimizes anyone else though.
 
DesertSands said:
Seems alot of the time when i read arguments or participate in debates with the other side a common theme seems to always emerge. Some sense of victimization by your use. Iv'e even had one person on another site tell me to: get an island and suck up all the drugs you want" Heres a quote from that that thread.




Where does this sort of victim thing come from? propaganda? a ****ty person from their past who happened to smoke pot? Either way i dont know, but it's fun countering that sort of argument when they make it. Personally i think Some of these people might have seen a substance destroy the lives of someone close to them but fundamentally I think many of them are authoritarian, They look at it as substances that destroy communities but often ignore the correlation with prohibition, the black market and supply and demand. I think there is irony to be found when someone does not want to be negatively affected by someone else's decisions, but promotes the most punitive consequences for the decisions of others, which don't necessarily even affect anyone.

The prohibitionist mindset is rife with hypocrisy. The property values argument has been used in so many other arguments, and it's always just an excuse to justify their own stance on what is truly right.
Click to expand...

There are so many complete and utter assholes in this world. They have no empathy, they are dumb, they are holier than though, they are hypocrites. The most ****ty of them all are the people that say "good" or "its all their fault for getting addicted" when people OD. these people are dumb, plain and simple. They know nothing. They only care about themselves, and if they ever found themselve addicted to a drug (like many people, by prescription from an injury) they would soon want sympathy instead of their assholeish position.

And no wonder drug use and ODs are running rampant, we don't spend money on rehabilitation. Dumb idiots shame those that are addicted, they don't have a way to get better. We throw drug users in prison ensuring when they get out they can't get a job and end up right back into their addiction.

Basically, no empathy. people without empathy are assholes, plain and simple. They know nothing about what its like to be addicted (I don't either, but I am intelligent and I have empathy). When someone become violently ill and could die because they stopped taking a drug, that is not about strong will power, that's physiological. Yeah, ultimately people could never do drugs in the first place (again, many are addicted on prescriptions given to them, not by choice)

And seriously, when it comes to pot, there are very little negatives to it. It's just ignorant, judgemental idiots
 
DesertSands said:
Id agree if we were talking hard drugs like heroin and meth but this was about pot. hard to wrap my head around how smoking a bowl in your own house victimizes anyone else though.
Click to expand...

Could make that very argument about meth and heroin. Does shooting up, snorting or whatever else in your own home victimize someone else?
 
X Factor said:
Could make that very argument about meth and heroin. Does shooting up, snorting or whatever else in your own home victimize someone else?
Click to expand...

That is a very good question, i suppose one could say it victimizes if someone else living there is put directly in harm. But thats a tough thing to quantify
 
DesertSands said:
Id agree if we were talking hard drugs like heroin and meth but this was about pot. hard to wrap my head around how smoking a bowl in your own house victimizes anyone else though.
Click to expand...

We are moving away from that mentality very very quickly.

It's almost not even worth mentioning anymore, that path into the future is clear.

Pot's going to be legal everywhere in the US in the next few yrs.
 
DesertSands said:
That is a very good question, i suppose one could say it victimizes if someone else living there is put directly in harm. But thats a tough thing to quantify
Click to expand...

Really? What about the people they live near? It's not a commercial zone, people dont want constant traffic by their homes, much less of losers like meth heads. It makes puts property even more at risk of theft, accidents, violence, etc.
 
DesertSands said:
Id agree if we were talking hard drugs like heroin and meth but this was about pot. hard to wrap my head around how smoking a bowl in your own house victimizes anyone else though.
Click to expand...

I think that many people with no interest in marijuana simply lump it in with hard drugs. Goodness knows that view was encouraged by the government in the 80's and 90's.

It's all the same to them, either because they don't care to learn the differences. It's a "DRUG", so it's bad. It never occurs to some that alcohol and pharmaceuticals are also "DRUGS" with many of the same issues.

Certainly, addicts of hard drugs are often hard to empathize with, with the associated crime and despair as their drug use becomes central to their lives, and I could certainly see an argument for isolating them until and unless they get help. The addicts have rights as well, though, so it's not simple.
 
Lursa said:
Really? What about the people they live near? It's not a commercial zone, people dont want constant traffic by their homes, much less of losers like meth heads. It makes puts property even more at risk of theft, accidents, violence, etc.
Click to expand...

Like i said hard to quantify, is the user in question a full blown addict who uses daily? are they abusive to their loved ones and neighbors? do they go out on the street to buy it or do they have dealers come to their home. are they discreet about it or are they open? no two drug users are the same and it's unfair to lump all of them together into the deadbeat loser category.
 
WillyPete said:
I think that many people with no interest in marijuana simply lump it in with hard drugs. Goodness knows that view was encouraged by the government in the 80's and 90's.

It's all the same to them, either because they don't care to learn the differences. It's a "DRUG", so it's bad. It never occurs to some that alcohol and pharmaceuticals are also "DRUGS" with many of the same issues.

Certainly, addicts of hard drugs are often hard to empathize with, with the associated crime and despair as their drug use becomes central to their lives, and I could certainly see an argument for isolating them until and unless they get help. The addicts have rights as well, though, so it's not simple.
Click to expand...

Meh, I dont know about that. I think the greater public is well aware that pot is NOT like those hard drugs and many have been exposed to the benefits of medical MJ.

I'm one of them...I was very aware of pot being different and a waste of taxpayer $ and LE lives in enforcement and prison costs. Wasnt interested in using it.

But it's pretty cool that my friend and I were in a GNC store looking at some herbal supplements and we could discuss comparisons with pot and those things at the same time (No, they didnt sell pot too). But just the pros and cons of the effects of different things. Because now people are able to try pot and see if it works for them, and then their experiences are shared.

And ya know what? It just amounts to pot being one of the more effective herbal supplements for pain..or relaxation...or euphoria. It's just another herbal alternative.
 
DesertSands said:
Like i said hard to quantify, is the user in question a full blown addict who uses daily? are they abusive to their loved ones and neighbors? do they go out on the street to buy it or do they have dealers come to their home. are they discreet about it or are they open? no two drug users are the same and it's unfair to lump all of them together into the deadbeat loser category.
Click to expand...

Everything in life is like that.
 
X Factor said:
I agree totally with the quoted portion. Addicts seem to be some of the most self absorbed, self centered assholes out there.
Click to expand...

Perhaps a little more compassion, brother... Addiction is a disease, one that some people are genetically predisposed towards.
 
Lursa said:
Meh, I dont know about that. I think the greater public is well aware that pot is NOT like those hard drugs and many have been exposed to the benefits of medical MJ.

I'm one of them...I was very aware of pot being different and a waste of taxpayer $ and LE lives in enforcement and prison costs. Wasnt interested in using it.

But it's pretty cool that my friend and I were in a GNC store looking at some herbal supplements and we could discuss comparisons with pot and those things at the same time (No, they didnt sell pot too). But just the pros and cons of the effects of different things. Because now people are able to try pot and see if it works for them, and then their experiences are shared.

And ya know what? It just amounts to pot being one of the more effective herbal supplements for pain..or relaxation...or euphoria. It's just another herbal alternative.
Click to expand...

I don't disagree.

I'm just trying to account for the reaction they're talking about in the OP. I'd guess many folks who lived through the era of Just Say No, the advent of the AIDS crisis, and the rise of crack cocaine were impacted in a way that isn't easily overturned, especially if they aren't curious (generally or on the topic.)

It'll take a another generation or two before most of that dissipates, and it's also that generation that is coming into power politically right now.
 
OlNate said:
Perhaps a little more compassion, brother... Addiction is a disease, one that some people are genetically predisposed towards.
Click to expand...

Addiction is not a disease. It is the result of a moral decision. Show me any child above age 8 who isn't aware of the perils of substance abuse. It is personal moral decision with that knowledge in hand, to indulge in that first drink, first snort of smack or crystal, whatever, and endure what follows. Reality, kicking a heroin habit is like kicking a case of the flue, only it happens 4-12 times daily. Same with meth, oxi, whatever. No one forces anyone to have their first alcohol. No one forces anyone to sniff some meth or smack. Yeah, once you've been seduced its harder to do without. But don't call it a disease, diseases never give their victims a choice the first time around. Calling addiction is a disease precludes and excuse a condition from being resolved by the individual, it provides an excuse and pity me the poor victim. BS.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Addiction is not a disease. It is the result of a moral decision. Show me any child above age 8 who isn't aware of the perils of substance abuse. It is personal moral decision with that knowledge in hand, to indulge in that first drink, first snort of smack or crystal, whatever, and endure what follows. Reality, kicking a heroin habit is like kicking a case of the flue, only it happens 4-12 times daily. Same with meth, oxi, whatever. No one forces anyone to have their first alcohol. No one forces anyone to sniff some meth or smack. Yeah, once you've been seduced its harder to do without. But don't call it a disease, diseases never give their victims a choice the first time around. Calling addiction is a disease precludes and excuse a condition from being resolved by the individual, it provides an excuse and pity me the poor victim. BS.
Click to expand...

Sorry, science disagrees, and I believe them over an old fat guy... ;)
 
OlNate said:
Sorry, science disagrees, and I believe them over an old fat guy... ;)
Click to expand...

Having walked away from hard drugs, I agree with him. I did not do rehab, I made a simple choice and decided I was no longer willing to live that way. At one point, I was as out there and strung out as it gets.
 
OldFatGuy said:
Addiction is not a disease. It is the result of a moral decision. Show me any child above age 8 who isn't aware of the perils of substance abuse. It is personal moral decision with that knowledge in hand, to indulge in that first drink, first snort of smack or crystal, whatever, and endure what follows. Reality, kicking a heroin habit is like kicking a case of the flue, only it happens 4-12 times daily. Same with meth, oxi, whatever. No one forces anyone to have their first alcohol. No one forces anyone to sniff some meth or smack. Yeah, once you've been seduced its harder to do without. But don't call it a disease, diseases never give their victims a choice the first time around. Calling addiction is a disease precludes and excuse a condition from being resolved by the individual, it provides an excuse and pity me the poor victim. BS.
Click to expand...

Sorry, its a disease, you are so wrong. If it was just someone's decision, why do addicts have withdrawals and do whatever they can to get a fix, even stealing from loved ones? People who were A students or really good people until they got addicted? There is a physiological reaction in the brain, release of brain neurotransmitters that bind to receptors in the brain that leads to addiction. People are genetically susceptible to addiction. There are drugs being developed that work by blocking the receptors in the brain that are linked with addiction, and it can prevent addiction. How is any of the moral? It's physiological, its biology.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugs-brains-behavior-science-addiction/preface

The only moral choice here is ever taking the drug in the first place or seeking help to overcome addiction, but once they are addicted, its physiological. And many people are addicted to other things besides drugs.

You can say BS all you want, but you are dead wrong. And its so incredibly stupid, why would someone who's life is being ruined continue to do drugs and kill themselves willingly?
 
Last edited:
Slingshot Bob said:
Having walked away from hard drugs, I agree with him. I did not do rehab, I made a simple choice and decided I was no longer willing to live that way. At one point, I was as out there and strung out as it gets.
Click to expand...

your personal experience means absolutely nothing to other people. You don't represent all of humanity, so sorry, just because you did something (if we even believe your story) does not represent everybody, everyboyd has different physiology and experiences.

If it was so easy, why the hell doesn't everybody do it? Even the most hardcore drug users wish they weren't, living in squalor, on the streets, risk of OD or being a victim of a crime. That's as dumb as saying homosexuality is a choice, why would people choose something that will make their lives harder and possibly be ostracized?
 
Slingshot Bob said:
Having walked away from hard drugs, I agree with him. I did not do rehab, I made a simple choice and decided I was no longer willing to live that way. At one point, I was as out there and strung out as it gets.
Click to expand...

That's cool, man...really, zero disrespect....nothing but respect, in fact. But I believe science over you too.
 
Is the topic confined to "the victimization syndrome" with regard to drugs alone? 'Cause I can think of a lot of ways victimization affects other aspects of society.

Regardless, I'm not sure that the "just say no" crowd are precisely picturing themselves as victims of the drug war. Just objecting to X on moral grounds isn't always victimization.

I have seen liberals approach the drug problem with the victimization syndrome. I saw one ultraliberal writer bitch about the old blaxploitation movie COFFY because of a scene in which the protagonist heroically throws off the effects of heroin addiction. Why didn't he like it? Because to him it was trivializing the realities of drug addiction, and making it seem like the victims of addiction ought to be able to do the same (if I followed his dubious logic).
 
Sampson Simpson said:
your personal experience means absolutely nothing to other people. You don't represent all of humanity, so sorry, just because you did something (if we even believe your story) does not represent everybody, everyboyd has different physiology and experiences.

If it was so easy, why the hell doesn't everybody do it? Even the most hardcore drug users wish they weren't, living in squalor, on the streets, risk of OD or being a victim of a crime. That's as dumb as saying homosexuality is a choice, why would people choose something that will make their lives harder and possibly be ostracized?
Click to expand...

I really don't give a damn if you believe me or not, that is my personal experience. If someone needs rehab, good for them. But they have to WANT to quit or no rehab on earth will work.

For someone who just got done giving a sermon on how addicts deserve compassion, I sure don't feel any from you.

I have walked the walk and talked the talk, take it or leave it, matters not to me.
 
OlNate said:
That's cool, man...really, zero disrespect....nothing but respect, in fact. But I believe science over you too.
Click to expand...

OK, I should disbelieve my own experience? The disease model gives an addict an out, "it's not my fault, it is beyond my control".

I am sure if I had believed that I would still be spun out, or dead by now.
 
WillyPete said:
I don't disagree.

I'm just trying to account for the reaction they're talking about in the OP. I'd guess many folks who lived through the era of Just Say No, the advent of the AIDS crisis, and the rise of crack cocaine were impacted in a way that isn't easily overturned, especially if they aren't curious (generally or on the topic.)

It'll take a another generation or two before most of that dissipates, and it's also that generation that is coming into power politically right now.
Click to expand...

I lived thru all that. I'm 58. And most of my friends are the same age and have no problems with the new pot legalization here.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom