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The victim complex of prohibitionists

OFG, seriously, it's ok...we disagree. You did your best, you told me all about your uneducated opinion, and I remain unconvinced, thanks to the world of science. Now let me out of your head, there's no need to get yourself into trouble again so soon after your return. Or at the very minimum, if you must brawl with me, open a thread in the place we don't speak about, where we don't have to worry about demerit points. Sending me little love letters like this in main chat is bound to get us both in trouble... ;)

Who are you to insult me by calling me uneducated? Who the hell do you think you are with your closed mind? You know nothing and then hurl ad hominem responses.

Getting banned doesn't frighten me. My life and social intercourse do not depend on being here. It's just a quick convenience as I take breaks from my own personal work. Look to yourself.

Don't give me any advice. You've taken away from me all respect for you.
 
Who are you to insult me by calling me uneducated? Who the hell do you think you are with your closed mind? You know nothing and then hurl ad hominem responses.

Getting banned doesn't frighten me. My life and social intercourse do not depend on being here. It's just a quick convenience as I take breaks from my own personal work. Look to yourself.

Don't give me any advice. You've taken away from me all respect for you.

:applaud
 
Who are you to insult me by calling me uneducated? Who the hell do you think you are with your closed mind? You know nothing and then hurl ad hominem responses.

Getting banned doesn't frighten me. My life and social intercourse do not depend on being here. It's just a quick convenience as I take breaks from my own personal work. Look to yourself.

Don't give me any advice. You've taken away from me all respect for you.

Good grief, get over yourself... :roll: I'm doing my best to be nice to you, but seriously, you need to calm down. I promise you, you're getting way more excited about this than I am. I'm not going to apologize because I'm more interested in what science has to say on the subject than I am some random dude on the internet. I'm not the crazy person in this scenario.

Take it easy, OldFatGuy. You're a little too intense for me...hehe...
 
Your science, liberal political science, buried with a complete lack of research, disagrees.

You, or any individual is still faced with that first moral decision. The buck stops there. Certainly, there are those seduced by opiates taken to ameliorate pain after trauma. Been there, done that. Been shot, hit by shrapnel, stabbed, heart surgery, cancer surgery, used morphine, demerol, assorted oxi compounds, and other goodies. Each time, I assessed myself, and I decided to stop taking them, and did so. Those drugs are all seductive. It wasn't easy, but doable. It is a decision. And I am no superman.

During the 1960's Britain experimented with legal heroin for addicts. The addicts had to register, take a weekly class for stopping use, get a job, received the heroin for free. Within months, the addicts were employed, functional, out of the subculture, not committing other illegal acts to support their habits. Research showed, absent the junkie detox as many times per day a fix was needed, and the lack of adulterants found in the street supply, the addicted became healthier, and even showed a retardation of the aging process. Certainly, no one wanted them operating heavy equipment or driving school buses and taxis for a living, but menial and office jobs, went well. The number of new addicts decreased drastically, because there was no profit to be had enlisting new addicts. The American DEA found this abhorrent. American politicians started lobbying the British government to revert the laws, with threats of noncooperation and withdrawal of other benefits, as well as trade sanctions. The program ended. Addiction rose, crime rose, people suffered and research stopped.

It was the American intolerance movement, the same movement that led to prohibition, along with lies from politicians and bureaucrats like Harry Jacob Anslinger that made former over the counter drugs like opium, marijuana, cocaine and so forth illegal. Always on the basis of morality.

Feel free to go with science, I prefer honesty. Government doesn't give grants for honesty. People make money selling goods to police forces and prisons that wouldn't be needed. Yup, marijuana, the gate way drug that leads to REEFER MADNESS.

Some people are weaker than others, but people like you need to stop giving them excuses for their own immorality.

It would far less expensive for our nation to buy the entire world opium harvests, than pay for interdiction, imprisonment, associated crimes, law enforcement, security guards at prisons, and so forth, give heroin away for free to registered addicts, burn the balance that has no medical use, but somebody or somebodies are making a hell of a lot of money keeping heroin illegal. You want to stop the abuse of synthetic opiates, put a cap on how much can be produced by the big pharma companies that make those synthetics. Figure out how much is really needed for medical application, and stop the manufacture of the rest. Don't tell me synthetic opiate production by companies who do know their excess production will end up on the streets is a disease. Cut the BS, stop enhancing the lies about who is making so much money off human depravity. We'll never stop the manufacture of bathtub meth, or overseas fenatyl, but we can kill the entire drug subculture by making it all legal, controlling the supplies as best as possible and eliminating the profits. It is a set of moral problems. No excuses for anyone. Eliminate the "forbidden" in fruit and see how the problem disappears.

We ended prohibition in 1933.

Today, 30% of Americans still abuse alcohol.

88,000 people last year died from alcohol related deaths.

So, please explain how making addictive drugs legal will make the problem disappear...….. and please try to avoid any more of your "Big Pharma" conspiracies.
 
We ended prohibition in 1933.

Today, 30% of Americans still abuse alcohol.

88,000 people last year died from alcohol related deaths.

So, please explain how making addictive drugs legal will make the problem disappear...….. and please try to avoid any more of your "Big Pharma" conspiracies.

We ended part of prohibition in 1933, only for alcohol.

You're correct, approximately 88k Americans die from alcohol abuse, and countless other lives are shortened for the same reason today, making alcohol abuse the 3rd preventable leading cause of death today in the US . However, during 1928 the leading cause of preventable death for Americans was alcohol abuse. Without context both determinations have little or no value. Or what other factors led to those deaths? i.e. adulterants, driving and machinery usage while under the influence, existing prior illnesses, effects upon the immune system, use of other toxic substance simultaneously, poor diets and malnutrition (malnutrition is not starvation) and so on. 30% of Americans do consume alcohol, that does not mean they all abuse alcohol. And remember, at any given time, more than half of the American population is underage, incapacitated or otherwise medically prevented from using alcohol. Doctors regularly suggest consumption of a beer daily for geriatrics with digestive problems, a glass or two of red wine for those with cardiac problems. That is not abuse.

My grandfather was an abusive alcohol consumer, he drank a quart of rye with breakfast, a quart of vodka with dinners, numerous beers in the course of a day, his entire adult life until he was 96. I never saw him drunk and out of control. He died at 97, bumping his head against a wall while rising from a shower chair, he developed an aneurism and died that night in his sleep. More than 230k nonfatal bathroom accidents occur annually in the US. Approximately 30k of those victims die. Do you want to ban bathrooms? Sitting on the throne is single largest contributor to those accidents. Perhaps we should ban toilets.

The pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock instead of their destination, New York Harbor, on the way to promised lands in Virginia, because they ran out of beer. Crucial. Water killed, beer did not. Water carried microbes that were toxic, beer, boiled as part of the brewing process and boosted by the antimicrobial qualities of alcohol, did not. And they knew nothing of germ theory. The observed and came to conclusions that proved out. Not science, art.

You want me to drop "any more of your "Big Pharma" conspiracies." then explain why the three leading manufacturers of Vicodin, OxyContin, Percocet and similar substances (Hillbilly heroin), produced more than 18 million doses each annually, than will ever be prescribed in this world in a year for needed medical use. That doesn't include other generic manufacturers and counterfeiters.

Approximately 65k Americans die annually from illicit drug use. Again, that number doesn't reflect lives wounded and effected negatively. Associated crimes, effects on families, and so on. That number does not reflect lives ruined or lost because of pharmaceutical opioids.

No one claimed decriminalizing, a defacto legalization, illicit drugs will end abuse. But we can minimize continued use and control it.

After 30 years of policies which allow heroin or other substance abusers to register with a government agency, and have that agency provide the substances, the methods of delivery, housing and board, segregation from the remainder of society, Norway has the least amount of heroin addicts per capita of any country in the world. They still have their junkies, but far less, and dealing heroin outside the legal system, is a capital offense, mandatory life incarceration with no parole. The junkies they have are mostly over age 30. Junkies under age 30 are extremely rare in Norway, usually having obtained their addiction while living outside the country.

Read what is posted without your prejudiced assumptions of what is being said. Your self respect will be noted by those you want to convince of other views.
 
Good grief, get over yourself... :roll: I'm doing my best to be nice to you, but seriously, you need to calm down. I promise you, you're getting way more excited about this than I am. I'm not going to apologize because I'm more interested in what science has to say on the subject than I am some random dude on the internet. I'm not the crazy person in this scenario.

Take it easy, OldFatGuy. You're a little too intense for me...hehe...

I'm over you, a question of worth.
 
We ended part of prohibition in 1933, only for alcohol.

You're correct, approximately 88k Americans die from alcohol abuse, and countless other lives are shortened for the same reason today, making alcohol abuse the 3rd preventable leading cause of death today in the US . However, during 1928 the leading cause of preventable death for Americans was alcohol abuse. Without context both determinations have little or no value. Or what other factors led to those deaths? i.e. adulterants, driving and machinery usage while under the influence, existing prior illnesses, effects upon the immune system, use of other toxic substance simultaneously, poor diets and malnutrition (malnutrition is not starvation) and so on. 30% of Americans do consume alcohol, that does not mean they all abuse alcohol. And remember, at any given time, more than half of the American population is underage, incapacitated or otherwise medically prevented from using alcohol. Doctors regularly suggest consumption of a beer daily for geriatrics with digestive problems, a glass or two of red wine for those with cardiac problems. That is not abuse.

My grandfather was an abusive alcohol consumer, he drank a quart of rye with breakfast, a quart of vodka with dinners, numerous beers in the course of a day, his entire adult life until he was 96. I never saw him drunk and out of control. He died at 97, bumping his head against a wall while rising from a shower chair, he developed an aneurism and died that night in his sleep. More than 230k nonfatal bathroom accidents occur annually in the US. Approximately 30k of those victims die. Do you want to ban bathrooms? Sitting on the throne is single largest contributor to those accidents. Perhaps we should ban toilets.

The pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock instead of their destination, New York Harbor, on the way to promised lands in Virginia, because they ran out of beer. Crucial. Water killed, beer did not. Water carried microbes that were toxic, beer, boiled as part of the brewing process and boosted by the antimicrobial qualities of alcohol, did not. And they knew nothing of germ theory. The observed and came to conclusions that proved out. Not science, art.

You want me to drop "any more of your "Big Pharma" conspiracies." then explain why the three leading manufacturers of Vicodin, OxyContin, Percocet and similar substances (Hillbilly heroin), produced more than 18 million doses each annually, than will ever be prescribed in this world in a year for needed medical use. That doesn't include other generic manufacturers and counterfeiters.

Approximately 65k Americans die annually from illicit drug use. Again, that number doesn't reflect lives wounded and effected negatively. Associated crimes, effects on families, and so on. That number does not reflect lives ruined or lost because of pharmaceutical opioids.

No one claimed decriminalizing, a defacto legalization, illicit drugs will end abuse. But we can minimize continued use and control it.

After 30 years of policies which allow heroin or other substance abusers to register with a government agency, and have that agency provide the substances, the methods of delivery, housing and board, segregation from the remainder of society, Norway has the least amount of heroin addicts per capita of any country in the world. They still have their junkies, but far less, and dealing heroin outside the legal system, is a capital offense, mandatory life incarceration with no parole. The junkies they have are mostly over age 30. Junkies under age 30 are extremely rare in Norway, usually having obtained their addiction while living outside the country.

Read what is posted without your prejudiced assumptions of what is being said. Your self respect will be noted by those you want to convince of other views.

Sorry, but we control alcohol too, and we still have a mess on our hands with that substance alone.

You say that "Big Pharma" over produces their product. Well, the DEA controls what they can legally produce. The DEA has also cut back by 25% of what the pharma's could produce in 2017 and certain areas still had a increase in deaths from the substances.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/roxborough/pennsylvania-opioid-overdose-deaths-increased-2017-cdc

Hello Fentanyl!
 
Sorry, but we control alcohol too, and we still have a mess on our hands with that substance alone.

You say that "Big Pharma" over produces their product. Well, the DEA controls what they can legally produce. The DEA has also cut back by 25% of what the pharma's could produce in 2017 and certain areas still had a increase in deaths from the substances.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/roxborough/pennsylvania-opioid-overdose-deaths-increased-2017-cdc

Hello Fentanyl!

The DEA controls nothing outside this country. All those countries are outside their jurisdiction. The DEA is responsible for the existence of more drug addicts in this nation than any other group.

You are not introducing new news, all old hat. Now talk to me about the destruction caused by bathtub meth. Please don't, I was being sarcastic.
 
The DEA controls nothing outside this country. All those countries are outside their jurisdiction. The DEA is responsible for the existence of more drug addicts in this nation than any other group.

You are not introducing new news, all old hat. Now talk to me about the destruction caused by bathtub meth. Please don't, I was being sarcastic.

OK....

Now that I have you off of the big pharma rhetoric...……….fix the DEA.
 
Sorry, but we control alcohol too, and we still have a mess on our hands with that substance alone.

You say that "Big Pharma" over produces their product. Well, the DEA controls what they can legally produce. The DEA has also cut back by 25% of what the pharma's could produce in 2017 and certain areas still had a increase in deaths from the substances.

https://patch.com/pennsylvania/roxborough/pennsylvania-opioid-overdose-deaths-increased-2017-cdc

Hello Fentanyl!

Let me show you my 17 year old grandson's fake id that got him into bars at 14.

Again, the DEA has no jurisdiction where these drugs are manufactured.

I have an unopened bottle of 200 morphine tabs from 3 years ago. Post surgery. Made in Switzerland. When I saw the same doctor on another matter six months ago, first words out of his mouth, "Do you want more Morphine."

The DEA is a bad joke, concerned more with job security than anything else.

You come from an environment where discipline and self discipline are respected and a necessity, as should be. You're speaking about an agency that cannot relate to those concepts.
 
OK....

Now that I have you off of the big pharma rhetoric...……….fix the DEA.

There is no Fix. Do away with the DEA and give the job to others who are honest.
 
Here’s the thing. You have people responsibly using opioids. You have people responsibly using amphetamines. You have people responsibly using every drug ever made probably every day. Its not the narrative one wants with ‘drug abuse’. We want to focus only those in deep ‘addiction’ and say its a disease, its the drug.

Its not. As noted, addicts are some of the most narcissistic people you will meet. Its them.
 
There are so many complete and utter assholes in this world. They have no empathy, they are dumb, they are holier than though, they are hypocrites. The most ****ty of them all are the people that say "good" or "its all their fault for getting addicted" when people OD. these people are dumb, plain and simple. They know nothing. They only care about themselves, and if they ever found themselve addicted to a drug (like many people, by prescription from an injury) they would soon want sympathy instead of their assholeish position.

And no wonder drug use and ODs are running rampant, we don't spend money on rehabilitation. Dumb idiots shame those that are addicted, they don't have a way to get better. We throw drug users in prison ensuring when they get out they can't get a job and end up right back into their addiction.

Basically, no empathy. people without empathy are assholes, plain and simple. They know nothing about what its like to be addicted (I don't either, but I am intelligent and I have empathy). When someone become violently ill and could die because they stopped taking a drug, that is not about strong will power, that's physiological. Yeah, ultimately people could never do drugs in the first place (again, many are addicted on prescriptions given to them, not by choice)

And seriously, when it comes to pot, there are very little negatives to it. It's just ignorant, judgemental idiots

There’s a 3% cure rate...why waste any more money? These junkies do it on their own accord, leaving family members and friends as the ones who suffer. I have all the compassion in the world for the family members victimized by them.
 
Good...whatever it takes to get your blood pressure down. :roll: :lol: Next time maybe get a nap in before coming on here.

What is wrong with you? Why can't you walk away without another series of ad hominem responses? Take your own advice.
 
There is no Fix. Do away with the DEA and give the job to others who are honest.

If the harmful drug prohibition were repealed, there would be little need for a DEA.

If the fraudulent War On Terror were ended, there would be little need for DHS.

Bureaucracies loves the laws that created them and keep them growing. Great job security.
 
If the harmful drug prohibition were repealed, there would be little need for a DEA.

If the fraudulent War On Terror were ended, there would be little need for DHS.

Bureaucracies loves the laws that created them and keep them growing. Great job security.

Having first hand witnessed the results of muslim terror repeatedly, here and abroad, there is nothing fraudulent about the need to protect our nation. Islam is at war with the world. Submit or die. However, job security is an issue that prevents more efficient protective and accurate actions.
 
What is wrong with you? Why can't you walk away without another series of ad hominem responses? Take your own advice.

lol..aww...got a little gottahavethelastworditis? Don't be so glum, chum, we're all friends here... :)

I just respond to your quotes, bud. Maybe that's what's wrong with me, come to think of it.

Do you have anything further to add to the actual topic, or are you just interested in a personal analysis of me, or getting back at me for imagined slights? Maybe you actually decided to read a book over the weekend, and acquire an informed opinion on this subject?
 
There are so many complete and utter assholes in this world. They have no empathy, they are dumb, they are holier than though, they are hypocrites. The most ****ty of them all are the people that say "good" or "its all their fault for getting addicted" when people OD. these people are dumb, plain and simple. They know nothing. They only care about themselves, and if they ever found themselve addicted to a drug (like many people, by prescription from an injury) they would soon want sympathy instead of their assholeish position.

And no wonder drug use and ODs are running rampant, we don't spend money on rehabilitation. Dumb idiots shame those that are addicted, they don't have a way to get better. We throw drug users in prison ensuring when they get out they can't get a job and end up right back into their addiction.

Basically, no empathy. people without empathy are assholes, plain and simple. They know nothing about what its like to be addicted (I don't either, but I am intelligent and I have empathy). When someone become violently ill and could die because they stopped taking a drug, that is not about strong will power, that's physiological. Yeah, ultimately people could never do drugs in the first place (again, many are addicted on prescriptions given to them, not by choice)

And seriously, when it comes to pot, there are very little negatives to it. It's just ignorant, judgemental idiots

I don't understand why we can't discuss the topic rationally, without insulting others. We do lack empathy, most of us do, depending on topic.
We are responsible for each other, we live in a society, we have to carry each other. That includes drug users, drug addicts, alcoholics, diabetics, COPDers, the obese...

Take this as you wish.
 
Having first hand witnessed the results of muslim terror repeatedly, here and abroad, there is nothing fraudulent about the need to protect our nation. Islam is at war with the world. Submit or die. However, job security is an issue that prevents more efficient protective and accurate actions.

I understand your point. I've never been to the Mideast, in or out of uniform.

I did get to visit Southeast Asia, in uniform, and it didn't take long to realize that we had invaded their country, not the other way around.

One poster here wonders "how did our oil get under the sand of arab countries?"

Is it possible that like the "terrorism" practiced by the Vietnamese in defending their country from foreign invaders, the muslims are also responding in kind, killing the round-eye invaders from foreign lands?

Who is the 'victim' and who is the 'aggressor'?
 
Having had to deal with addicts and all that involves them for nearly 20 years, I found the new insights in this piece to be not only bracing, but badly needed in ending the old paradigms of how people consider addiction.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/...EV-0824&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVGate

That is a fair article, but I wonder how differently wired brains (and a certain genetic influence) applies to some of the more mundane addictive substances like caffeine and nicotine?

Certainly society is much more accepting of those addictions.
 
I understand your point. I've never been to the Mideast, in or out of uniform.

I did get to visit Southeast Asia, in uniform, and it didn't take long to realize that we had invaded their country, not the other way around.

One poster here wonders "how did our oil get under the sand of arab countries?"

Is it possible that like the "terrorism" practiced by the Vietnamese in defending their country from foreign invaders, the muslims are also responding in kind, killing the round-eye invaders from foreign lands?

Who is the 'victim' and who is the 'aggressor'?

The US never invaded the mideast, but did contribute to kicking German butts out of the mideast, and then left. The British and French were the problem, attempting to regain or at least control former colonies. BP was the greatest exporter of Arab oil into the US. The same people who brought opium to China from India. Now it is Aramco. Purveyors need their markets. It is not a one way ticket.
 
That is a fair article, but I wonder how differently wired brains (and a certain genetic influence) applies to some of the more mundane addictive substances like caffeine and nicotine?

Certainly society is much more accepting of those addictions.

Yes but those also have less impact on society and the individuals. The impacts of nicotine that society has focused on...which is reasonable for society...are the ones that do cost society: health care and 2nd hand smoke...treating the individual's addiction seemed/seems secondary to me.
 
Having had to deal with addicts and all that involves them for nearly 20 years, I found the new insights in this piece to be not only bracing, but badly needed in ending the old paradigms of how people consider addiction.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/...EV-0824&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVGate

Very interesting. Had to consider it for awhile but this para really stood out for me because it can relate to many things in life and it rang true, made sense:

"Learning that drives urges like love and reproduction is quite different from learning dry facts. Unlike memorizing your sevens and nines, deep, emotional learning completely alters the way you determine what matters most, which is why you remember your high school crush better than high school math."

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/26/...EV-0824&WT.mc_ev=click&ad-keywords=AUDDEVGate

Think about the impacts of early learning and experiences for children. Did the camping my family did, starting when I was 2 yrs old and always loved and was immersed in, set the path for my entire life? Including a love of the outdoors, a degree in Natural Resource Management, the absolute need to escape NJ and move out West, a profession as a park ranger, etc?

Does the influence of religion work this way?

If the parents take their kids frequently to soup kitchens to feed the homeless and the experiences are warm and positive and "feed" some inner need, will these kids have a strong tendency to have a lifelong compassion for helping others? Conversely, if the experiences are negative, the risk may be for the opposite.

Sorry, flew off topic. Ah the old conundrum, 'nature vs nurture.'
 
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