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CDC: Drug overdoses hit new record

You haven't said anything new. Your restating that people are victims does not mean that I need to refute those claims a second time.
Argumentum ad naseum.
Uh, hello? You didn't refute anything. All you said was "that's not true." That's literally all you said. That does not qualify as any sort of refutation.

You didn't prove anything about the efficacy of treatment regimens. You certainly didn't refute any claims about neurological changes made by opiates and other drugs, which make it extremely difficult to stop. You did not prove that individuals have a radical degree of agency over their lives.
 
I have no objection to treatment for addicts, but without a corresponding change in national drug policy, the elimination of prohibition, nothing much will change.
 
Most is coming from over the border...BUILD the WALL!

Fentanyl dosage is measured in micrograms like LSD.

If you can see it clearly, its too much.

The biggest issue in bringing it to market, legal and illegal, was finding a delivery method that wouldn't just kill your customers.

Your wall won't stop something that is that concentrated.

One condom up the butt is thousands of doses.
 
Uh, hello? You didn't refute anything. All you said was "that's not true." That's literally all you said. That does not qualify as any sort of refutation.

I've said much more than that. Also, I don't think you know what "literally" means. I've noticed since millennials came into the world, that word is frequently bandied about in ways it should not be.

You didn't prove anything about the efficacy of treatment regimens. You certainly didn't refute any claims about neurological changes made by opiates and other drugs, which make it extremely difficult to stop.

You're right, I didn't do either of those, as neither were relevant to my points. I don't typically pursue others' red herrings.

You did not prove that individuals have a radical degree of agency over their lives.

That's because it is self-evident. But, that is another trend I've noticed; a lack of people being responsible for themselves. Everyone else is responsible for your problems. Only others can fix them. Others also owe you. Entitlement.

I attribute that to the increasing size of government. The term "Nanny State" is apt. The bigger government has become, the less self-reliant the people. That's very sad, and can only end badly...as the dying population of addicts is discovering.
 
I've said much more than that.
Not in this thread. All you've done is repeat "you have a choice," while ignoring that neurological changes dramatically alter that calculus.


Also, I don't think you know what "literally" means.
I do. I used it deliberately, to reinforce that you did not refute a single point I made.


That's because it is self-evident.
I don't think you know what "self-evident" means, because it certainly is not axiomatic that individuals have radical (i.e. total) control over every single facet of their lives. Heck, I disposed of that in just a few sentences.

By the way... Some medication for Parkinson's can cause compulsive behaviors, that were never present prior to taking the medication. Similar to opiates, the medications throw off the brain's reward mechanism, so you can have Parkinson's patients who become, for example, compulsive gamblers. Prior to taking the medication, they didn't have any such tendencies; while taking it, they can bankrupt their families because they can't stop. Is this behavior exclusively and totally under their control? It should be obvious that's not the case, especially for the early patients, when no one realized that the drugs were causing the behavior. But hey, it's wrong to attribute responsibility to anyone other than the individual, right? You have total control over yourself, even when you don't. Riiiiight.


But, that is another trend I've noticed; a lack of people being responsible for themselves. Everyone else is responsible for your problems. Only others can fix them. Others also owe you. Entitlement.
sigh

No, this is not about "entitlement." It's about effective treatment. The false idea that willpower alone is sufficient to fix someone who basically has brain damage is potentially harmful, as it can keep us from utilizing the most effective means possible to deal with drug addiction.

And guess what? Throwing everything on a drug addict, whose brain is compromised, does not result in effective solutions. (It doesn't for most other problems too, but that's another story.) For example, the evidence is quite clear that the most effective treatment for drug addiction is methadone, which satisfies the cravings without inducing the high. Proclaiming that "you are responsible for your problems" does nothing to make methadone treatment more widely available, nor is it a replacement for research into better treatment methods.


I attribute that to the increasing size of government. The term "Nanny State" is apt. The bigger government has become, the less self-reliant the people. That's very sad, and can only end badly...as the dying population of addicts is discovering.
Actually, I'd say it is the failure of government that has contributed to the current use of opiates.

They failed to properly regulate the use of opiates. In particular, the FDA was swayed by flawed research funded by Purdue. It neglected to track excessive prescriptions of opiates, it failed to take sufficient enforcement against pill mills, and so on.

They also haven't done much on the treatment side. Treatment is expensive, and there aren't enough facilities. Since keeping people clean is a common good, it makes sense for this to be covered. Treatment centers are also notoriously unregulated, which leaves a vulnerable population open to abuse.

They are slowly making some progress, e.g. EMTs are now regularly carrying Narcan, which improves survival rates for overdoses. However, EMTs will tell you that without subsequent treatment, it's barely a bandage on a gaping wound. Yes, the desire for opiates is so strong that it overrides events where the drug almost kills the user.

Plus, the "nanny state" has largely disappeared from the communities most heavily impacted by the opiate epidemic. Many of the states where the opiate crisis are hitting hardest are conservative -- e.g. Oklahoma, Tennessee, West Virginia, Alabama, and so on. The 80s welfare reforms resulted in weakening the safety net in many of those areas.

People aren't getting hooked on opiates because the Mayor of New York wants to tax sugary drinks. You're just using this as a way to push your own ideology. Nice. Real nice.
 
Not in this thread. All you've done is repeat "you have a choice," while ignoring that neurological changes dramatically alter that calculus.



I do. I used it deliberately, to reinforce that you did not refute a single point I made.



I don't think you know what "self-evident" means, because it certainly is not axiomatic that individuals have radical (i.e. total) control over every single facet of their lives. Heck, I disposed of that in just a few sentences.

By the way... Some medication for Parkinson's can cause compulsive behaviors, that were never present prior to taking the medication. Similar to opiates, the medications throw off the brain's reward mechanism, so you can have Parkinson's patients who become, for example, compulsive gamblers. Prior to taking the medication, they didn't have any such tendencies; while taking it, they can bankrupt their families because they can't stop. Is this behavior exclusively and totally under their control? It should be obvious that's not the case, especially for the early patients, when no one realized that the drugs were causing the behavior. But hey, it's wrong to attribute responsibility to anyone other than the individual, right? You have total control over yourself, even when you don't. Riiiiight.



sigh

No, this is not about "entitlement." It's about effective treatment. The false idea that willpower alone is sufficient to fix someone who basically has brain damage is potentially harmful, as it can keep us from utilizing the most effective means possible to deal with drug addiction.

And guess what? Throwing everything on a drug addict, whose brain is compromised, does not result in effective solutions. (It doesn't for most other problems too, but that's another story.) For example, the evidence is quite clear that the most effective treatment for drug addiction is methadone, which satisfies the cravings without inducing the high. Proclaiming that "you are responsible for your problems" does nothing to make methadone treatment more widely available, nor is it a replacement for research into better treatment methods.



Actually, I'd say it is the failure of government that has contributed to the current use of opiates.

They failed to properly regulate the use of opiates. In particular, the FDA was swayed by flawed research funded by Purdue. It neglected to track excessive prescriptions of opiates, it failed to take sufficient enforcement against pill mills, and so on.

They also haven't done much on the treatment side. Treatment is expensive, and there aren't enough facilities. Since keeping people clean is a common good, it makes sense for this to be covered. Treatment centers are also notoriously unregulated, which leaves a vulnerable population open to abuse.

They are slowly making some progress, e.g. EMTs are now regularly carrying Narcan, which improves survival rates for overdoses. However, EMTs will tell you that without subsequent treatment, it's barely a bandage on a gaping wound. Yes, the desire for opiates is so strong that it overrides events where the drug almost kills the user.

Plus, the "nanny state" has largely disappeared from the communities most heavily impacted by the opiate epidemic. Many of the states where the opiate crisis are hitting hardest are conservative -- e.g. Oklahoma, Tennessee, West Virginia, Alabama, and so on. The 80s welfare reforms resulted in weakening the safety net in many of those areas.

People aren't getting hooked on opiates because the Mayor of New York wants to tax sugary drinks. You're just using this as a way to push your own ideology. Nice. Real nice.

It's obvious that you're willing to be untruthful in order to maintain your narrative. For example...

All you said was "that's not true." That's literally all you said.

All you've done is repeat "you have a choice,"

You claim that I discount that physical addiction is real, which never happened. Feel free to quote it. The effects of physical addiction are certainly real. They just aren't relevant, because they do not change accountability.

I alone am responsible for all of my choices in life. That includes taking a pill, whether it was prescribed by a doctor and furnished by the most pristine pharmacy, or taken off some dead hooker in a back alley. I am also responsible for my behavior after taking that pill, whether it be completely benign, or completely destructive. I alone am responsible whether I become physically addicted to that pill or not. No one else can be. And, no one else can fix it for me if I do become addicted.

You believe that more regulation will fix the problem. Make government bigger. That's what created this mess in the first place.
 
It's obvious that you're willing to be untruthful in order to maintain your narrative.
:roll:

Dude. If I have misunderstood you, then just say "I did not mean X, I meant Y." Accusing me of lying, when a) I am making true statements, and b) your own writings are right there, does not help your position.


You claim that I discount that physical addiction is real, which never happened. Feel free to quote it.
No, actually, I am pointing out -- and you are failing to address -- that physical addiction means you lose most of your agency, and effective treatments will recognize this condition.

Read your own words. You've suggested that addicts can stop whenever they want (post #16), you rejected treating drug addiction like a disease (#19), you referred to my pointing out the neurological aspects as irrelevant and a "red herring," (#29), you blamed the government for people not taking responsibility (#29), and now you are proclaiming radical agency as "I alone am responsible for all my choices in life".

So... Yeah, that really does sound like you're discounting the physical nature of addiction. All you are doing is blaming the addict for the choices they made... even if those choices were rational. Oh, except that it's also the government's fault. Wait, what?


I alone am responsible for all of my choices in life. That includes taking a pill, whether it was prescribed by a doctor and furnished by the most pristine pharmacy, or taken off some dead hooker in a back alley. I am also responsible for my behavior after taking that pill, whether it be completely benign, or completely destructive. I alone am responsible whether I become physically addicted to that pill or not. No one else can be. And, no one else can fix it for me if I do become addicted.
Again, this is not recognizing the nature of addiction, nor does it get us any closer to figuring out the most effective methods to deal with addiction.

It's also pretty much flat-out wrong. For example, it is certainly not the case that taking a single Percocet dooms you to a life of drug addiction. Millions of people use pain medication properly -- even recreationally -- without becoming instantly addicted. While we don't have definite numbers, some research indicates that addiction rates may be as low as 8% for long-term users.

You're also presuming that everyone has perfect knowledge -- or even trust in those sources of knowledge. Who tells us that opiates are addictive? The Nanny State, perhaps? Doctors, who prescribe them? For-profit treatment centers? What happens if you've got a kid in a rural town who distrusts the government?

More importantly, assignment of responsibility is irrelevant. What matters is treating the condition. You can blame the addict from now until the cows come home, but that's not going to solve anything. Figuring out what treatment works, regardless of one's ideologies or preferences, is the best way to deal with the issue.


You believe that more regulation will fix the problem. Make government bigger. That's what created this mess in the first place.
It is?!? I thought I am responsible for all my choices in life, and that it is self-evident that I have absolute total control over my life. But it's the government's fault?

Either we are exclusively responsible for our fates, or external factors are at least partially responsible. Those are two mutually exclusive positions. Please make up your mind, kthx.
 
I guess you don't see how obviously you're contradicting yourself in those statements. The cog dis is strong in you.

There is no issue here. IF you treat addicts like they are sick, you are dealing with the demand side. You are helping people who need help. You also have the ability to help those who need help who are addicted to alcohol or who fail to use and are mentally addicted to marijuana (use it to excess as a coping mechanism and lose the ability to cope without it) or other substances.

The fact that dealers who use children as mules and put guns in their hands should be treated like the amoral pieces of excrement, aka turned into worm food, is irrelevant.

Can you excuse using a child as a drug mule? What good reason is there to do that? Or selling to a child? Don’t make excuses for dealers. They are pieces of ****.
 
There is no issue here. IF you treat addicts like they are sick, you are dealing with the demand side. You are helping people who need help. You also have the ability to help those who need help who are addicted to alcohol or who fail to use and are mentally addicted to marijuana (use it to excess as a coping mechanism and lose the ability to cope without it) or other substances.

The fact that dealers who use children as mules and put guns in their hands should be treated like the amoral pieces of excrement, aka turned into worm food, is irrelevant.

Can you excuse using a child as a drug mule? What good reason is there to do that? Or selling to a child? Don’t make excuses for dealers. They are pieces of ****.

Would dealers use children as mules if drugs were legal?
 
Would dealers use children as mules if drugs were legal?

No they would not.

If sales were legalized and taxed and regulated for purity and dosage, the only drug dealers would be tax-paying and nonviolent health professionals.
 
Would dealers use children as mules if drugs were legal?

Wow.

Just wow.

The fact that you are willing to make excuses is sickening. Decriminalizing use and treating addicts is one thing. And it should be done. But the fact that you think those animals deserve anything other than a bullet is a disgrace. You wonder why this debate has gone on so long in this country? That is why. Because good people don’t want to make excuses for scum.
 
No they would not.

If sales were legalized and taxed and regulated for purity and dosage, the only drug dealers would be tax-paying and nonviolent health professionals.

Yea. Because making meth and cocaine and getting people addicted to it would be given up in a heartbeat.

Treat addicts. Kill dealers.
 
Wow.

Just wow.

The fact that you are willing to make excuses is sickening. Decriminalizing use and treating addicts is one thing. And it should be done. But the fact that you think those animals deserve anything other than a bullet is a disgrace. You wonder why this debate has gone on so long in this country? That is why. Because good people don’t want to make excuses for scum.

I don't see that selling something someone else doesn't approve of as being sick. I do see your sanctioning murder of these people as sick.
 
No, actually, I am pointing out -- and you are failing to address -- that physical addiction means you lose most of your agency...

Even if being addicted somehow magically removes your responsibility for your actions from that point on (which I do not believe), who is responsible for becoming addicted in the first place? You wish to remove accountability completely. I don't think you really want that in society.
 
Yea. Because making meth and cocaine and getting people addicted to it would be given up in a heartbeat.

Treat addicts. Kill dealers.

Simple minds make simple statements, often based upon fantasy and old wives' tales.
 
Even if being addicted somehow magically removes your responsibility for your actions from that point on (which I do not believe), who is responsible for becoming addicted in the first place? You wish to remove accountability completely. I don't think you really want that in society.
I don't, which is why I did not make such a categorical statement. The idea that everyone who gets hooked does so by choice, with full and complete knowledge of the consequences, is absurd.

And again, that type of attribution is largely moot, since the focus should be on remedies, and shouting that "it's all the addict's fault" does not provide any insight whatsoever into treatment.

In the meantime, you still haven't explained how being addicted is exclusively the fault of the drug addict, and it's the government's fault.
 
I don't, which is why I did not make such a categorical statement. The idea that everyone who gets hooked does so by choice, with full and complete knowledge of the consequences, is absurd.

And again, that type of attribution is largely moot, since the focus should be on remedies, and shouting that "it's all the addict's fault" does not provide any insight whatsoever into treatment.

In the meantime, you still haven't explained how being addicted is exclusively the fault of the drug addict, and it's the government's fault.

It's not the government's fault that anyone became addicted. It's the government's fault that people don't have free access to alternatives, for the black market, for the high prices, for getting caught up in the system, etc.
 
It's not the government's fault that anyone became addicted. It's the government's fault that people don't have free access to alternatives, for the black market, for the high prices, for getting caught up in the system, etc.
So what? If people have total control over their own lives, they shouldn't need alternatives; dealing with a black market isn't going to compel them to get hooked on heroin; and getting caught up in "the system" (whatever that means) should not impact their decisions. Nor is it clear what "high prices" you're worried about.

We should note that there are no magical non-opiate painkillers out there which we have ignored. Doctors are well aware of existing medications like NSAIDs, acetaminophen, aspirin, steroids, and so on. Cannabinoids may reduce the need for opiates, but the research on this point isn't very strong, there is little indication they could fully replace opiates, and they have their own risks (including dependency). And of course, recreational users don't care about medical functions of opiates.

So, which is it? Do people have total control over their lives, or not?
 
So what? If people have total control over their own lives, they shouldn't need alternatives; dealing with a black market isn't going to compel them to get hooked on heroin; and getting caught up in "the system" (whatever that means) should not impact their decisions. Nor is it clear what "high prices" you're worried about.

We should note that there are no magical non-opiate painkillers out there which we have ignored. Doctors are well aware of existing medications like NSAIDs, acetaminophen, aspirin, steroids, and so on. Cannabinoids may reduce the need for opiates, but the research on this point isn't very strong, there is little indication they could fully replace opiates, and they have their own risks (including dependency). And of course, recreational users don't care about medical functions of opiates.

So, which is it? Do people have total control over their lives, or not?

Its interesting as to cbd that studies have shown that is not analgesic so therefore "doesn't work".

But I know several people that have gotten off opiates using it.

It doesn't kill the pain.

It pushes it back, so it isn't screaming in your sensorium. Puts it "over there".

It is "dissociative", I guess would he a good term

But it does work for chronic pain.
 
So what? If people have total control over their own lives, they shouldn't need alternatives; dealing with a black market isn't going to compel them to get hooked on heroin; and getting caught up in "the system" (whatever that means) should not impact their decisions. Nor is it clear what "high prices" you're worried about.

We should note that there are no magical non-opiate painkillers out there which we have ignored. Doctors are well aware of existing medications like NSAIDs, acetaminophen, aspirin, steroids, and so on. Cannabinoids may reduce the need for opiates, but the research on this point isn't very strong, there is little indication they could fully replace opiates, and they have their own risks (including dependency). And of course, recreational users don't care about medical functions of opiates.

So, which is it? Do people have total control over their lives, or not?

I did not say that people have total control over their lives. I've said people have control over their actions and choices, and are therefore responsible for them. I cannot control if, when I first step out of my door tomorrow, a bird craps on my head. I can control how I react to it, and I am responsible for that choice.

The choice to take any drug comes with a risk. If someone is ignorant of that risk, that is no one else's fault. If something bad happens to that person because he took that drug, he is responsible. For example, I developed a life-long disease immediately in response to having taken the anthrax vaccine in the military. I joined voluntarily, and could have resigned at any moment. Therefore I am still responsible for it...no one else.

As for the government involvement with the opiates, you are the one that brought it up...

Actually, I'd say it is the failure of government that has contributed to the current use of opiates.

They failed to properly regulate the use of opiates.

Prohibition doesn't work, and you want more of it. You want, in addition to your drug-addicts' addiction problems, legal problems piled on top of them. You want birds crapping on their heads.
 
Its interesting as to cbd that studies have shown that is not analgesic so therefore "doesn't work".

But I know several people that have gotten off opiates using it.

It doesn't kill the pain.

It pushes it back, so it isn't screaming in your sensorium. Puts it "over there".

It is "dissociative", I guess would he a good term

But it does work for chronic pain.

That's a very good description of how it works. And, I'm a fan. One problem is "the entourage effect" with taking it by itself, in that it may not be as effective without the synergistic effects of the other 60+ cannabiniods in marijuana.

There is also a lot of hype right now about Kratom. I don't know much about it other than the FDA's trying to get involved with it.

It makes one wonder, just how many alternatives are out there, when the government tries to limit everyone's access to them and their research, turning those that do into criminals. It's almost as if big pharma was paying them to do so. :roll:
 
Yea. Because making meth and cocaine and getting people addicted to it would be given up in a heartbeat.

Treat addicts. Kill dealers.

Wrong method kill the addicts and just follow the dealers.

No users no dealers
 
Many of these people get addicted from opioids they were prescribed. While I don't absolve people of responsibility for giving IN to their addictions, I highly doubt most of these people CHOOSE to get addicted.

I’ve personally known at least 30 drug addicts in my life...not a single one started with prescription pain meds. That’s not to say that it doesn’t happen, but your typical junkie is just that...a junkie who started young and had an addictive personality.
 
Its interesting as to cbd that studies have shown that is not analgesic so therefore "doesn't work"....
Again, there isn't much evidence that it functions as an analgesic. AFAIK no one has actually tested marijuana for those properties. Rather, what they do is ask medical marijuana users about their habits. That's nowhere near the same thing as a double-blind study to test if it's more efficacious than a placebo.
 
Is this coming from someone who has never been on opioids for any kind of pain management?

Had a guy I worked with who was really smart. Really nice guy. Really tough. Shoulder got put out of socket and he was given opioids for pain management after he went to the hospital (it was bad). He ended up getting hooked. I’m an upper middle class college grad. I had to have major surgery due to a weightlifting accident. I got hooked on them. I was borderline suicidal. Opioids will **** with your brain. Fortunately I had doctors and nurses as family members who helped me manage and I also sought help.

End of the day opioids are not excellent medication. Yep doctor still prescribe it like candy. I wonder if people felt the same about cocaine back in the day? Your statement seems very naïve.

And cold as ice.
 
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