Harsher Punishments For Selling/Providing to Under 18?

Would you support this law? Even if marijuana was legalized, would you support additional punishments to anyone providing drugs to minors? Specifically under 18. And when I say drugs, that includes cigarettes and alcohol as well as the other types.


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blackjack50 said:

Would you support this law? Even if marijuana was legalized, would you support additional punishments to anyone providing drugs to minors? Specifically under 18. And when I say drugs, that includes cigarettes and alcohol as well as the other types.


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Are you proposing using a (racially?) discriminatory strict ID law?

blackjack50 said:

Would you support this law? Even if marijuana was legalized, would you support additional punishments to anyone providing drugs to minors? Specifically under 18. And when I say drugs, that includes cigarettes and alcohol as well as the other types.


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Probably not based on the vagueness of the question. I think we have proven time and time again that being "tougher on crime" by increasing punishments leads to questionable results in actual crime rates and likely increased disproportion of the application of those punishments right down economic and racial lines.

OrphanSlug said:

Probably not based on the vagueness of the question. I think we have proven time and time again that being "tougher on crime" by increasing punishments leads to questionable results in actual crime rates and likely increased disproportion of the application of those punishments right down economic and racial lines.

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Some folks see the law as a precise surgical instrument, and of course they have the best of intentions. In reality the law is more like a sledge hammer. The unintended consequences of laws usually do more harm to society than whatever the problem is they are trying to solve.

OrphanSlug said:

Probably not based on the vagueness of the question. I think we have proven time and time again that being "tougher on crime" by increasing punishments leads to questionable results in actual crime rates and likely increased disproportion of the application of those punishments right down economic and racial lines.

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I beilieve that all drugs should be legal and the massive profits generated by illegality would disappear and reduce substantially the quantity of drugs available. I don't trust Big Pharma in this regard because I observe the huge number of persons arrested for selling legal priscription drugs like hydrocodone and oxycontin. Those products come from Big Pharma. There must be some really big holes in their distribution network for such large quantities to enter the illegal domain. Return common sense to the AMA and remove these from the pain therapy regimen. The jails are being filled with small scale drug dealers when they should be filing up with large scale Drug Manufacturers.
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DaveFagan said:

I beilieve that all drugs should be legal and the massive profits generated by illegality would disappear and reduce substantially the quantity of drugs available. I don't trust Big Pharma in this regard because I observe the huge number of persons arrested for selling legal priscription drugs like hydrocodone and oxycontin. Those products come from Big Pharma. There must be some really big holes in their distribution network for such large quantities to enter the illegal domain. Return common sense to the AMA and remove these from the pain therapy regimen. The jails are being filled with small scale drug dealers when they should be filing up with large scale Drug Manufacturers.
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My thoughts exactly. Big pharma used doctors to push opiate drugs for painkillers and ended up creating a new generation of heroin addicts. Plus they have the FDA in their pocket, creating a closed market for themselves since no generic drugs are allowed to compete with them. It's all a government created monopoly.

blackjack50 said:

Would you support this law? Even if marijuana was legalized, would you support additional punishments to anyone providing drugs to minors? Specifically under 18. And when I say drugs, that includes cigarettes and alcohol as well as the other types.

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The punishment should be the exact same as it is for cigarettes and alcohol, even though those are both dramatically more dangerous.

PoS said:

My thoughts exactly. Big pharma used doctors to push opiate drugs for painkillers and ended up creating a new generation of heroin addicts. Plus they have the FDA in their pocket, creating a closed market for themselves since no generic drugs are allowed to compete with them. It's all a government created monopoly.

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Yep... I've lost more than one close friend to prescription ODs. They don't give one flying **** about that but if someone smokes an all natural plant that you can't physically OD on they lock them in a cage.

ttwtt78640 said:

Are you proposing using a (racially?) discriminatory strict ID law?

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Now that is a naughty proposal.

blackjack50 said:

Would you support this law? Even if marijuana was legalized, would you support additional punishments to anyone providing drugs to minors? Specifically under 18. And when I say drugs, that includes cigarettes and alcohol as well as the other types.


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The only way to fight supply is by reducing demand - does that mean you would favor imposing harsher "illegal drug" possession penalties on minors as well? Another question is how far up the "illegal drug" supply chain should one go? If a minor is caught with a prescription drug (say a big pharma "pain" pill) does that mean the known drug maker is guilty or should we take the word of the minor that he does not know (remember?) where he got that particular pill?

No because strict liability laws are crap. I even know someone who was arrested for "distributing" to a minor by leaving a beer bottle on the counter at his house and some kid stole it. This is just a way to create a police state and this country already has more in jail the the soviet gulag

80% of minors drink, 40% have tried drugs. Yet most turn out fine. It's crazy to have such extreme laws directed at the majority that are clearly not a deterrent at all. They just serve to ruin the lives of the few who are caught up in prosecutorial discretion and over-protective parents

Thoreau72 said:

Some folks see the law as a precise surgical instrument, and of course they have the best of intentions. In reality the law is more like a sledge hammer. The unintended consequences of laws usually do more harm to society than whatever the problem is they are trying to solve.

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well in this country that's the case, because our politicians don't give a damn about actually solving anything, and the voters wouldn't have the first clue how to. I doubt more than a fraction can even name a few alternative sentencing methods that have been used

OrphanSlug said:

Probably not based on the vagueness of the question. I think we have proven time and time again that being "tougher on crime" by increasing punishments leads to questionable results in actual crime rates and likely increased disproportion of the application of those punishments right down economic and racial lines.

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Well I think the meat of the question is... would justice be better served by giving your punishment for someone who is willing to sell to children. And I would think we would want to apply across the board to people selling things that are illegal in the first place.


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Thoreau72 said:

Some folks see the law as a precise surgical instrument, and of course they have the best of intentions. In reality the law is more like a sledge hammer. The unintended consequences of laws usually do more harm to society than whatever the problem is they are trying to solve.

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I disagree. I think a law that is improperly measured is as you say a sledgehammer. I think that when time is taken and research is done...it is surgical. Game and fish regulations are an excellent example of said laws.


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chromium said:

well in this country that's the case, because our politicians don't give a damn about actually solving anything, and the voters wouldn't have the first clue how to. I doubt more than a fraction can even name a few alternative sentencing methods that have been used

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Well one thing that I think you need to remember is how important justice is in American society. Justice is of course a double sided coin in that the victim gets restitution, but that the criminal is given an opportunity to reconcile their issues and repent. But there SHOULD be consequences for breaking the law. I think that politicians and conservatives lean to more harsh consequences as part of the justice system, and liberals lean towards leniency and repentance. Both sides have their issues. One leans away from justice for the victim and the other away from justice for the criminal.

In the case of a criminal who is using drugs (which is against the law), that is one issue. But in the above topic...we are talking about someone who is selling to children. I would consider that child abuse, and equally as bad as sexual abuse. Drugs are psychologically devastating. They harm brain development. Overall? It just is not something we can wash over when someone sells to a child. I can speak to some notion of that. I had a best friend all the way through school who eventually went down that very dark path. I could no longer follow him. He wasn't just a danger to himself, but to others. It culminated in rape and attempted murder and as far as I know...he is a fugitive from the law now.

He had a future ahead of him. He was a great mechanic. Wanted nothing more than to join the navy, had was very physically fit, and while not book smart...he was very emotionally intelligent. Great with people. And a hard worker. Beyond anyone I knew at the time. His future wasn't just robbed from him by an estranged father and a mother who spent too much time working to take care of him. At some point you have to recognize the ruthlessness of those willing to sell to someone who is a 13 or 14 year old.

I don't know about you, but if I caught someone selling drugs to my child? Especially at a young age? Well...the American justice system would be the least of their concern. And I can only imagine how someone else would feel. There should be severe consequences for harming a child.


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blackjack50 said:

Well one thing that I think you need to remember is how important justice is in American society. Justice is of course a double sided coin in that the victim gets restitution, but that the criminal is given an opportunity to reconcile their issues and repent. But there SHOULD be consequences for breaking the law. I think that politicians and conservatives lean to more harsh consequences as part of the justice system, and liberals lean towards leniency and repentance. Both sides have their issues. One leans away from justice for the victim and the other away from justice for the criminal.

In the case of a criminal who is using drugs (which is against the law), that is one issue. But in the above topic...we are talking about someone who is selling to children. I would consider that child abuse, and equally as bad as sexual abuse. Drugs are psychologically devastating. They harm brain development. Overall? It just is not something we can wash over when someone sells to a child. I can speak to some notion of that. I had a best friend all the way through school who eventually went down that very dark path. I could no longer follow him. He wasn't just a danger to himself, but to others. It culminated in rape and attempted murder and as far as I know...he is a fugitive from the law now.

He had a future ahead of him. He was a great mechanic. Wanted nothing more than to join the navy, had was very physically fit, and while not book smart...he was very emotionally intelligent. Great with people. And a hard worker. Beyond anyone I knew at the time. His future wasn't just robbed from him by an estranged father and a mother who spent too much time working to take care of him. At some point you have to recognize the ruthlessness of those willing to sell to someone who is a 13 or 14 year old.

I don't know about you, but if I caught someone selling drugs to my child? Especially at a young age? Well...the American justice system would be the least of their concern. And I can only imagine how someone else would feel. There should be severe consequences for harming a child.


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half of prisoners in america are there for victimless "crimes" They're the ones you don't see on the news, who quietly get hauled in for a joint in the glove box and thrown in a cell to rot. It's not that i don't sympathize with victims. I just see too often there is no victim, or the punishment vastly outweighs the crime. There's a reason this country has the highest prison rate by far, and it's not because the rest of the world doesn't give a **** about victims of violence or child abuse

your concern about kids being sold drugs is far more common in gang infested areas, and that kind of activity is best dealt with by attacking poverty, and the laws that create a market for dealers in the first place. Really alternative sentencing falls under an array of alternative *approaches* to crime...because the war on drugs as is has failed completely. It's just never ending. And when colorado legalized weed possession alone, the arrest rate fell 20% immediately. That tells me a lot about the kind of "criminals" we have

chromium said:

half of prisoners in america are there for victimless "crimes" They're the ones you don't see on the news, who quietly get hauled in for a joint in the glove box and thrown in a cell to rot. It's not that i don't sympathize with victims. I just see too often there is no victim, or the punishment vastly outweighs the crime. There's a reason this country has the highest prison rate by far, and it's not because the rest of the world doesn't give a **** about victims of violence or child abuse

your concern about kids being sold drugs is far more common in gang infested areas, and that kind of activity is best dealt with by attacking poverty, and the laws that create a market for dealers in the first place. Really alternative sentencing falls under an array of alternative *approaches* to crime...because the war on drugs as is has failed completely. It's just never ending. And when colorado legalized weed possession alone, the arrest rate fell 20% immediately. That tells me a lot about the kind of "criminals" we have

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Sure. We have a late prison population. A number that is deceptive when you consider how many are in jail (drunk tank and so on and are not convicted but simply a danger to themselves and others, or someone who isn't going to be convicted). Then there is the whole "victimless" crime thing when some plea bargains.

But all of that is really irrelevant. You can complain about the prison populations all you want, but selling to a child isn't a victimless crime. There really is a victim and it really is the child. Let's put it this way...would you be ok with a 14 year old buying beer or cigarettes? Legally? Would you expect ramifications on an establishment that does so illegally? This isn't your standard "drugs are bad and should be illegal" argument. And I am wondering if you think it is. Because I'm not against marijuana being sold legally. But I'm against it being sold to kids. Along with any other drug.

And as I said...someone who does so is harming the child and should be treated as such.





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blackjack50 said:

Sure. We have a late prison population. A number that is deceptive when you consider how many are in jail (drunk tank and so on and are not convicted but simply a danger to themselves and others, or someone who isn't going to be convicted). Then there is the whole "victimless" crime thing when some plea bargains.

But all of that is really irrelevant. You can complain about the prison populations all you want, but selling to a child isn't a victimless crime. There really is a victim and it really is the child. Let's put it this way...would you be ok with a 14 year old buying beer or cigarettes? Legally? Would you expect ramifications on an establishment that does so illegally? This isn't your standard "drugs are bad and should be illegal" argument. And I am wondering if you think it is. Because I'm not against marijuana being sold legally. But I'm against it being sold to kids. Along with any other drug.

And as I said...someone who does so is harming the child and should be treated as such.


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Even policy that the 'think of the children' crowd assumes is for the best attentions and therefore demands it, puts too much trust in politicians and the courtroom work group to enforce it justly. This is what leads to the 2 page 'strict liability' laws with no leeway to consider the circumstances. No two crimes are the same. I have already given an example of a guy whose beer was stolen by his kid's friend and then charged with distributing to a minor. Easily the same can happen to say a medical weed user.

Look, i've done research work interviewing serious criminals who have used their 10 year old to sell drugs, or they took part in sex trafficking. There's nothing redeeming about these characters. If a law could be narrowly tailored to crack down on that i'd be for it. But i have no faith in my politicians to do that, or the voters to hold them accountable when instead the law casts such a wide net it's used to screw 9/10 others. Which is historically what happens. Take the sex offender list for instance. Every now and then they catch a real predator like a jerry sandusky. More often it's been a sting by homophobic cops at a park for consensual hook ups, or allowing a 16 year old girl to lie about her age and then claim victim status or blackmail someone and then go out and do it again! I'll give another example. When i was 13-14 my friend swiped some of his stepdad's pornos and had us watch. Technically this made his dad guilty of distributing licentious material to a minor, a felony and sex crime here. Or how about the epidemic of teenagers who take nude selfies and are now both the victim and criminal. Here is an example of kids as young as 13 being charged with felony sex offense for sending nudes of themselves, and one for child pornography for simple possession of her own pic -

"Sexting" Leads to Child Porn Charges for Teens - CBS News

This is a direct result of strict liability. Because our government is so worthless, there's no effort to keep the law up to date with technology changes. How in the world you claim to protect kids by throwing them in jail and branding them sex offender for life i have no idea. But that's america

The fact is there aren't many jerry sanduskys or drug kingpins using kids compared to the examples of unwitting "criminals" i gave. And not every minor and not every drug is the same and should be treated the same either

blackjack50 said:

Would you support this law? Even if marijuana was legalized, would you support additional punishments to anyone providing drugs to minors? Specifically under 18. And when I say drugs, that includes cigarettes and alcohol as well as the other types.


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What are the current punishments for selling alcohol and tobacco to minors? Include that and I could give you an opinion on whether I think they are harsh enough.

blackjack50 said:

I disagree. I think a law that is improperly measured is as you say a sledgehammer. I think that when time is taken and research is done...it is surgical. Game and fish regulations are an excellent example of said laws.


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Surely there is an exception or two to every rule, no doubt. Improperly measured? How so, and by whom?

My point is that in the case of drug laws, they do far more harm than good, and that has been measured by the historical record, over many decades. The drug prohibition harms all of society, users and non-users alike.

I say we do a policy that actually reduces supplying to minors, even if it isn't a hardline one

blackjack50 said:

Would you support this law? Even if marijuana was legalized, would you support additional punishments to anyone providing drugs to minors? Specifically under 18. And when I say drugs, that includes cigarettes and alcohol as well as the other types.


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It's already illegal to provide such thinks to minors. We already have too many laws to deal with. Maybe we should enforce the laws already in effect, before creating more useless laws.

Masterhawk said:

I say we do a policy that actually reduces supplying to minors, even if it isn't a hardline one

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No system is perfect, and Utopia is never an option, but I would say our current alcohol policy does a better job of protecting minors from alcohol, preventing them from acquiring it, than our drug policy prevents them from acquiring drugs.