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Thread: California WTF? A rant.

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by ryzorsden View Post
    There is no God.
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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    [Page 2 of 2 pages]

    ok, here is where you and i do NOT see eye to eye. those drunks and addicts are sick. jailing them until they dry up is reprehensible; jailing people because they have an illness. it seems so absurd. also quite unConstitutional if they are jailed despite having committed no crime


    ---Please pay careful attention to me having specifically mentioned treatment as a first option.
    That is already being done in courts around the country right now. As for not having committed a crime, if they're picked up for public intoxication and/or possession, that is a crime. You can possess weed but you cannot possess heroin, fentanyl, other opioids, meth or coke, especially for the express purpose of recreational use. Being drunk in public is also a crime, and so is any form of DUI as well. But many courts offer a treatment option over incarceration.


    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler
    But with the growing number of displaced people who live "Hooverville" style in tents, we are now overwhelmed because we were already treating the bums with kid gloves, because bums "have rights". Of course they do, but they end where mine begin, remember that?




    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    what you did not explain was what rights of yours they are infringing by their actions. share that with us so that we can understand your situation, too


    ---If they're trespassing on my property, which they have. If they're breaking and entering in addition to trespassing, which they also have on one occasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    actually, it does appear to be an excuse. a very weakly supported one
    california appears capable of doing a lot of things. the only global economies larger than that of california are those of the USA, china, japan, and germany. yep, if cali were a nation, it would have the world's fifth largest economy
    also, employment between 2012 and 2017 increased by 16% in california while it holds 12% of the nationís population
    it would appear that california has become a jobs magnet not just from mexico/latin america but for much of the USA

    i see in my burg an attitude by many established residents that 'i have mine, you go get your own'. your comments sound eerily similar to me


    Unfair mischaracterization given the many times I've advocated for less red tape in construction of tiny houses, low income apartments, more shelters and access to job skills training for anyone who cannot afford it on their own.
    You mentioned not being familiar with L.A. and S.F. and I am here to let you know that it's these cities who are doing an especially poor job of dealing with the issues, and which have spent lots of money on non-solutions.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    see my questions about whether it is Constitutional - and ethical - to make it criminal to be poor, which comments are found above

    those people you would deny help are often our fellow citizens. certainly they are fellow humans. how we treat the least among us tells a lot about a people. i do not want to be someone who espouses what you are proposing

    Again, unfair mischaracterization. I am the last person to want being poor to be criminalized. I've been homeless.
    I want the help to be effective and transformative and not just a means of temporarily sweeping the problem under the rug.
    And I want the homeless folks who demonstrate that they are capable of being productive members of society to get more help.

    SEE Part TWO below...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongidig View Post
    I think Trump is much better than Hitler.

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Part TWO:

    In MY neighborhood, there's a family who have apparently been living in an old RV for about six months now. They move the RV about once every three or four days but they stay on my end of the street for about three days.
    Then they move, and then about a week later they show up again.

    I know that AT LEAST ONE person in that family works because they also have a car and I've seen the guy take off in the morning for work. He's clean and well groomed and he looks like he is DRESSED for work because his shirt looks like a company shirt.
    So at least ONE person in this homeless family DOES HAVE a job.
    What they don't have is a house or apartment, they have their old RV and they have their car.

    They're not pissing and crapping in the street because apparently they must be using the toilet in the RV camper and emptying it out regularly.
    And they're also not causing any trouble either.

    It is easy to imagine that this guy, whoever he is, once had an apartment or a house and then BLAMMO, either he got laid off or his housing costs double or tripled and now he couldn't afford it anymore.

    This family that I am talking about, wouldn't cause trouble in a homeless spot set up in an RV place. They'd probably be grateful and they'd probably work their tail off to move up the ladder and back into a real place as quick as they could.

    We can't coddle all the drunks and druggies and bums, but we can help people like this guy, this guy who works and stays at the end of my street every week. We should help a guy like that. I look at that guy and wonder if I could be resourceful enough to find an RV for my family if I got struck by some misfortune.
    "There but for the grace of God go I", as the old saying goes.
    We have to help people like that so that they DON'T wind up in a rat infested crap filled tent on Skid Row.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongidig View Post
    I think Trump is much better than Hitler.

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post


    ---Please pay careful attention to me having specifically mentioned treatment as a first option.
    That is already being done in courts around the country right now. As for not having committed a crime, if they're picked up for public intoxication and/or possession, that is a crime. You can possess weed but you cannot possess heroin, fentanyl, other opioids, meth or coke, especially for the express purpose of recreational use. Being drunk in public is also a crime, and so is any form of DUI as well. But many courts offer a treatment option over incarceration.



    your mentioning treatment as a first option was a good thing. that is not where we disagree
    the willingness to incarcerate someone only because of public intoxication is where we part ways. alcoholism is a sickness. it needs treatment, not jail
    if the vagrant is holding, take the substances and then get the sick individual into treatment



    ---If they're trespassing on my property, which they have. If they're breaking and entering in addition to trespassing, which they also have on one occasion.



    Unfair mischaracterization given the many times I've advocated for less red tape in construction of tiny houses, low income apartments, more shelters and access to job skills training for anyone who cannot afford it on their own.
    You mentioned not being familiar with L.A. and S.F. and I am here to let you know that it's these cities who are doing an especially poor job of dealing with the issues, and which have spent lots of money on non-solutions.



    Again, unfair mischaracterization. I am the last person to want being poor to be criminalized. I've been homeless.
    I want the help to be effective and transformative and not just a means of temporarily sweeping the problem under the rug.
    And I want the homeless folks who demonstrate that they are capable of being productive members of society to get more help.

    SEE Part TWO below...
    [emphasis added by bubba]
    very commendable
    but what of the others who do not meet this criteria; what becomes of them
    until you come up with a solution for that, the problem remains, albeit in smaller scale
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    "To me free speech is not when you see something good and then you purposefully write bad. To me thatís very dangerous speech and you become angry at it. But thatís not free speech." ~ tRump

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    Part TWO:

    In MY neighborhood, there's a family who have apparently been living in an old RV for about six months now. They move the RV about once every three or four days but they stay on my end of the street for about three days.
    Then they move, and then about a week later they show up again.

    I know that AT LEAST ONE person in that family works because they also have a car and I've seen the guy take off in the morning for work. He's clean and well groomed and he looks like he is DRESSED for work because his shirt looks like a company shirt.
    So at least ONE person in this homeless family DOES HAVE a job.
    What they don't have is a house or apartment, they have their old RV and they have their car.

    They're not pissing and crapping in the street because apparently they must be using the toilet in the RV camper and emptying it out regularly.
    And they're also not causing any trouble either.

    It is easy to imagine that this guy, whoever he is, once had an apartment or a house and then BLAMMO, either he got laid off or his housing costs double or tripled and now he couldn't afford it anymore.

    This family that I am talking about, wouldn't cause trouble in a homeless spot set up in an RV place. They'd probably be grateful and they'd probably work their tail off to move up the ladder and back into a real place as quick as they could.

    We can't coddle all the drunks and druggies and bums, but we can help people like this guy, this guy who works and stays at the end of my street every week. We should help a guy like that. I look at that guy and wonder if I could be resourceful enough to find an RV for my family if I got struck by some misfortune.
    "There but for the grace of God go I", as the old saying goes.
    We have to help people like that so that they DON'T wind up in a rat infested crap filled tent on Skid Row.
    unless you are proposing that the homeless receive RVs in the hope that they too, will not inflict themselves upon the public in negative manner, then i don't understand the point of the above vignette

    note that those homeless, whose plight we are discussing, will not have been aided by your suggestions
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    "To me free speech is not when you see something good and then you purposefully write bad. To me thatís very dangerous speech and you become angry at it. But thatís not free speech." ~ tRump

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    your mentioning treatment as a first option was a good thing. that is not where we disagree
    the willingness to incarcerate someone only because of public intoxication is where we part ways. alcoholism is a sickness. it needs treatment, not jail
    if the vagrant is holding, take the substances and then get the sick individual into treatment
    I am in favor of that as an always first option but in the end, we are still dealing with laws which are on the books and have been for a long time.
    If the state wants to make changes to those laws, it might not meet resistance if it can demonstrate ability to benefit and cost savings.
    As it is now, possession and public intoxication are misdemeanors, and the state has laws that apply.
    I still insist you mischaracterize me by implying that I somehow get gratification by imprisoning addicts.
    I was also a huge drug addict once upon a time, a time in which I was NOT homeless, by the way.
    I've been clean now for almost twenty-six years.


    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    but what of the others who do not meet this criteria; what becomes of them
    until you come up with a solution for that, the problem remains, albeit in smaller scale
    We ARE talking about scale. Somewhere between half the homeless are economically displaced.
    It's easier, cheaper and more effective to get this group back into housing because they can pretty much pick up where they left off.
    Many still have jobs, or can qualify for jobs, so it's just a question of getting them a roof.
    The payoff is that more often than not they return to society and that makes room for the next case who needs the help.

    The other group needs help too, I agree with you, but it's the kind of help that was taken away starting in the 1980's when the national network of mental health facilities lost their funding. Some states operated their facilities with a combination of federal and state money, some were state funding only. California might be able to restore more of its bygone mental health infrastructure but I daresay we need some federal money due to the sheer size of our problem.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongidig View Post
    I think Trump is much better than Hitler.

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    unless you are proposing that the homeless receive RVs in the hope that they too, will not inflict themselves upon the public in negative manner, then i don't understand the point of the above vignette

    note that those homeless, whose plight we are discussing, will not have been aided by your suggestions
    I was attempting to illustrate ability to benefit and cost/savings realities but you're trying to spin this into some outraged neighbor scenario where all I care about is the public nuisance aspects.

    When did you develop such a negative view of me? I was almost sure you've read plenty of what I have to say about the social contract in this country, which should now be referred to as the FORMER social contract since most of it no longer exists anymore.

    But I guess you view me as some heartless ogre who only cares that someone is pee peeing on my prize azaleas.
    I dunno, what gives?

    We can help pretty much every kind of homeless that are out there but as you know, they're not a monolithic group, thus some respond to help better than others. All I am saying is, if we GET the help to the group that can benefit the most for the least investment, we are shrinking the homeless population back down to a more manageable size.

    I thought my fiddler crab visual aid was quite clear about this.

    Oh well...
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongidig View Post
    I think Trump is much better than Hitler.

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Checkerboard Strangler View Post
    I was attempting to illustrate ability to benefit and cost/savings realities but you're trying to spin this into some outraged neighbor scenario where all I care about is the public nuisance aspects.

    When did you develop such a negative view of me? I was almost sure you've read plenty of what I have to say about the social contract in this country, which should now be referred to as the FORMER social contract since most of it no longer exists anymore.

    But I guess you view me as some heartless ogre who only cares that someone is pee peeing on my prize azaleas.
    I dunno, what gives?

    We can help pretty much every kind of homeless that are out there but as you know, they're not a monolithic group, thus some respond to help better than others. All I am saying is, if we GET the help to the group that can benefit the most for the least investment, we are shrinking the homeless population back down to a more manageable size.

    I thought my fiddler crab visual aid was quite clear about this.

    Oh well...
    no personal animus whatsoever. promise
    my heavy-handed disagreement with recommended approaches to the homeless problem probably got in the way

    we are now housing in prison many who would have been in medical facilities receiving mental health treatment - during the time preceding reagan
    commit a crime, while homeless, addled, poor ... it's still a crime and the criminal should be subject to imprisonment
    but not if the person is committing a crime because they are mentally impaired. they should receive treatment, instead
    and as you have personally experienced, addiction is a disease. few can recover without outside intervention
    incarceration of these poor souls is but a symptom of their underlying mental health problem. but we are 'treating' them as we would hardened criminals who have no empathy for their victims and who deserve to be segregated from the lawful population

    our rich nation could and should solve the problem of the least among us
    but we do not because it is easier - and cheaper - to blame the victims with poor mental health, poor general health, and those with negligible skills who are unneeded in the jobs market

    how we could have benefitted our nation if instead of giving tax cuts to the elite, we could have instead used that $2 Trillion to address our nation's mental health and homelessness problem
    we are negotiating about dividing a pizza and in the meantime israel is eating it
    "To me free speech is not when you see something good and then you purposefully write bad. To me thatís very dangerous speech and you become angry at it. But thatís not free speech." ~ tRump

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    Quote Originally Posted by justabubba View Post
    no personal animus whatsoever. promise
    my heavy-handed disagreement with recommended approaches to the homeless problem probably got in the way

    we are now housing in prison many who would have been in medical facilities receiving mental health treatment - during the time preceding reagan
    commit a crime, while homeless, addled, poor ... it's still a crime and the criminal should be subject to imprisonment
    but not if the person is committing a crime because they are mentally impaired. they should receive treatment, instead
    and as you have personally experienced, addiction is a disease. few can recover without outside intervention
    incarceration of these poor souls is but a symptom of their underlying mental health problem. but we are 'treating' them as we would hardened criminals who have no empathy for their victims and who deserve to be segregated from the lawful population

    our rich nation could and should solve the problem of the least among us
    but we do not because it is easier - and cheaper - to blame the victims with poor mental health, poor general health, and those with negligible skills who are unneeded in the jobs market

    how we could have benefitted our nation if instead of giving tax cuts to the elite, we could have instead used that $2 Trillion to address our nation's mental health and homelessness problem
    I'm not the ogre you make me out to be, I just don't believe in throwing good money after bad money.
    I never proposed giving everyone an RV, it just so happens that the family in question is living in one, and by the way, you wouldn't want that machine, it's barely livable and barely runs, just enough to move it from place to place.

    Certainly we can help ALL of the homeless in some way but we're going to get the most bang for the buck out of giving the most help fastest to the ones who were already productive members of society and who simply lack a place to live. Then we're left with the people who have always BEEN California's historic, chronic homeless, which represents a number that we've pretty much always had here.

    As for criminalizing homelessness and poverty, of course that's wrong.
    But surely you agree that if a homeless person commits a crime they receive the same law enforcement that a person with a home would receive for the same crime.
    I agree that treatment first is the best practice but Californians are going to have to change our laws.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongidig View Post
    I think Trump is much better than Hitler.

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    Re: California WTF? A rant.

    And by the way, one of the first things California has to start doing is penalizing states that intentionally SEND their homeless here.
    Many of you will snort indignantly and pretend that doesn't happen. You're either flat out lying or you just don't know the facts.

    Florida, Texas, Nevada, Indiana and even New York are just some of the states which have been busing or flying homeless people to Los Angeles and San Francisco since the 1990's and even before.

    NYC homeless.jpg
    Quote Originally Posted by Mongidig View Post
    I think Trump is much better than Hitler.

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