America's Crisis of Trust

dcaraz said:

Our democracy is in crisis. We are experiencing a crisis of confidence, and a lack of moral leadership. There are those in power who would have us doubt every aspect of our society. They tell us we can't trust anyone who is red or blue. They attack the agencies of our government. They call our free press the enemy of the people. They tell us to distrust immigrants and our foreign allies. Distrust the CIA. FBI, State Department, Mexican Americans and Muslims. They tell us only to trust them, and those who lie for them. This is dangerous. We should not take it lightly. Divide and conquer is an age-old strategy to defeat an enemy. But a democracy can not stand if its citizens no longer trust each other, its institutions or its principles. America would have lost World War Two if we bickered among ourselves, as we are doing today, rather than unite to defeat the Nazi and Imperial Japan, as we did nearly 80 years ago.

If we want to improve the present, one way we can each make a difference is to be willing to listen to someone who we disagree with. We can try to understand their point of view by discussing our differences--and finding common ground. Listening to--and not demonizing the other--is a first step. It starts when we realize we are all in this together. For better or worst.

Wexner renounces Republican Party after Obama stop in Columbus - News - The Review - Alliance, OH

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That's good to read and somewhat heartening, but I'll believe it when he puts his money where his mouth is.

Far too many republicans feign disgust at Trump and still don't act against or vote against his policies. Rand "Russian Asset" Paul, Jeff Flake, Susan Collins, etc....

Keep in mind we all owe a thanks to Trump. Concepts and ideas that would have been continued to be swept under the rug, are now in full dialog.

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Indeed. Thank you Mr. Trump! As millions of your fellow citizens worry about an unhinged Commander in Chief, we are for the first time since King Richard Nixon's reign
discussing on a daily basis the potential threat to our economy, our alliances, and our constitution that this deranged man might cause.
I was politicized over the Vietnam War lies, followed by Nixon's Enemies List, Watergate, more lies and finally prison sentances.
I'm glad you're unbothered by what I see as a menace to America and our global relations.

ttwtt78640 said:

I never once mentioned "open borders" - you added that nonsense all on your own. If my attempt to clarify matters a bit upset you then that is not my problem either.

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Then what is your so called perception of the side that wishes to "let foreign nationals who get inside the US be permitted stay as long as they wish", if it isn't "open borders"?
Open unconditional amnesty?
Nope, because then you would have said "let foreign nationals who ALREADY GOT inside the US be permitted stay as long as they wish".
Therefore, since you substituted "GET", that would imply that no effort is made to prevent them from GETTING inside the US, i.e. "open borders", or shall we say "extremely lax borders" with no discernible attempt at enforcement.

Don't play dumb with me, because you're really insulting the intelligence of everyone else here as well.
And don't attempt to imply that I'm upset either. That would border on troll-bait.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Much as I respect you, apparently there isn't very much you care about, or else you're very well protected, because the explosions have already been happening.
If the former, oh well...at least you're traveling light, and not everyone else can, unfortunately.
If the latter, then lucky you.

Only just know this: By the time those explosions DO reach you or those you care about, it will be way too late.
I suspect you already know that deep down, which is why I respect you in the first place.

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I suspect that didn't come out quite right, which, reading it now, I can understand how it would be. Call it a fit of temporary hopelessness.

I'm certainly not in a place that's insulated from all or even most of this. For starters, I'm using health insurance from the ACA, as of this past March. If that goes away, I'm uninsurable due to a bag of pre-existing conditions from hell. Due to those same conditions, I can't work anymore, so I can't go that route, either.

There's a lot more, but I think you get the idea.

I agree with you. I don't spend much time in DP as I'm writing a novel that pivots on creation of a third party that draws moderates from both major parties, plus independents, and those
like me -- and perhaps others in DP-land -- who are fed up with the mud slinging, race baiting, money laundering fat cat excuse our politics has become.
Because I think creatively how best solve problems faced, I consider myself a progressive person. But that doesn't mean I accept the BS from either party.
However, I refuse to become isolated from the political arena. I argue with those I meet who say "All pols are corrupt. Politics sucks." THAT is what many would like us to accept.
If we become desensitized, despondent, and cynical, then we cease voting. We allow the motivated to take over and run things. In the case of Mr. Trump, he is the beneficiary of too
many voters turned off by Hillary's BS, the Dem's BS, and many years of both parties ignoring the needs/concerns of most Americans.

I hope to publish my novel next year. China and Russia form a global alliance that threatens the West. America continues to drift away from our global alliances, and we pay a price from
consistent intelligence attacks. A general in our DIA, frustrated with the limitations of being a military leader, retires and enters the political arena at a time when a third party actually gains traction.

<alt>doxygen said:

I suspect that didn't come out quite right, which, reading it now, I can understand how it would be. Call it a fit of temporary hopelessness.

I'm certainly not in a place that's insulated from all or even most of this. For starters, I'm using health insurance from the ACA, as of this past March. If that goes away, I'm uninsurable due to a bag of pre-existing conditions from hell. Due to those same conditions, I can't work anymore, so I can't go that route, either.

There's a lot more, but I think you get the idea.

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The bolded in RED, that's our 23 year old son. He's never been insurable until the ACA, and he's looking at a transplant someday pretty soon. If his insurance goes away, we wind up burying our son.
We're fellow travelers, you and me.

Acadia said:

Problem is the TDS crowd and the media (which FUELS them) are rabid in propagating their anti-Trump agenda. They believe every anonymous report, every book and every utterance of the hate panels on CNN and MSNBC.
Look at all the major social media platforms. All controlled by the Left.

We are the silent majority, but now, we are actively being silenced. By censorship and having our words twisted so that our every utterance is considered racist and "dog whistle".

I don't know how to compete with their Alinsky tactics.

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We can fight back though we need to be honorable and honest in how we do it so we don't sink to their level. I still say there are more of us than there are of them. We have a few responsible members of Congress who are asking necessary questions of Google, Facebook, Twitter et al execs who it seems have been deliberately setting their algorithms to achieve a particular outcome and this should not stand given their significant monopoly statuses and the stranglehold they have on dissemination of information. But if enough of us speak out when we believe we are being censored or subjected to censorship of certain information, we can prevail. And we have to be strong enough to withstand the army of detractors who will ridicule us, insult us, try to block us or bury us when we do. And I have to believe there are at least some people working for newspapers, radio, television etc. who will get tired of constantly being show up to be purveyors of fake news and disinformation for political purposes and who will eventually start doing their jobs.

dcaraz said:

A general in our DIA, frustrated with the limitations of being a military leader, retires and enters the political arena at a time when a third party actually gains traction.

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Describe the "traction gaining" process.

Acadia said:

Problem is the TDS crowd and the media (which FUELS them) are rabid in propagating their anti-Trump agenda. They believe every anonymous report, every book and every utterance of the hate panels on CNN and MSNBC.
Look at all the major social media platforms. All controlled by the Left.

We are the silent majority, but now, we are actively being silenced. By censorship and having our words twisted so that our every utterance is considered racist and "dog whistle".

I don't know how to compete with their Alinsky tactics.

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To your comment re their Alinsky tactics, the trick is to recognize them and be willing not to respond as they expect. Ben Shapiro has a little book out--it's available on Amazon ebooks--How to Debate Leftists and Destroy Them. It is pretty informative. Admittedly I sometimes just shrug them off when they get into Alinksky mode and don't waste my time. I don't think it is so important to directly take them on as it is to just keep putting accurate information out there despite their ridiculing, sneering, insulting, and derailing tactics.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

The bolded in RED, that's our 23 year old son. He's never been insurable until the ACA, and he's looking at a transplant someday pretty soon. If his insurance goes away, we wind up burying our son.
We're fellow travelers, you and me.

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I hope and pray that you and your wife never have to bury your son.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Yeah, like Lindbergh and Henry Ford and a few other antisemites.
At around the same time, the Klan was also enjoying record membership.

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Kind of limited viewpoint, even for one suffering from tunnel vision. You've neglected the Anti Chinese League, Sons of the Shillelagh, all the moonshiners who were all too happy to kill themselves a revenue agent, and a myriad of others. Name an ethnic group, they had their haters.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Dillinger was a hero because he WAS the lefty anarchist's best friend. He was knocking over all the big capitalist banks and setting fire to the institutions of law and order. Nice to know that you identify with that and yet you're former law enforcement. Wow, just wow.

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BS. Dillinger was no lefty nor an anarchist, friends of neither. He was a greedy, stone killer who enjoyed the excitement of robbing banks. That his admirers hated banks had nothing to do with politics.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Three cheers for anarchy. So in other words, if ten or twenty million anarchists and another ten million of their quiet supporters such as yourself can knock it all over, that's healthy, and everyone else be damned?

It's better in Somalia, dude.

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I'm not your dude. Use that insult again and I'm done with you, not a threat, a statement of fact.

As usual, your hyperbole leaves your intellect in the dust.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

But frankly, I kind of like not having to live like it's the Old West or the Dillinger era. I don't shoot at the mailman through the door or fly planes into IRS buildings, or set up secretive mega-churches where I pronounce all other males eunuchs and screw twelve year old girls.
The kind of America you dream of is the kind of America where that sort of thing can flower and thrive...and has in the past.

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As usual, your hyperbole leaves your intellect in the dust.

No matter your desire to shoot the messenger, don't tell me what I dream of.

Checkerboard Strangler said:

Then what is your so called perception of the side that wishes to "let foreign nationals who get inside the US be permitted stay as long as they wish", if it isn't "open borders"?
Open unconditional amnesty?
Nope, because then you would have said "let foreign nationals who ALREADY GOT inside the US be permitted stay as long as they wish".
Therefore, since you substituted "GET", that would imply that no effort is made to prevent them from GETTING inside the US, i.e. "open borders", or shall we say "extremely lax borders" with no discernible attempt at enforcement.

Don't play dumb with me, because you're really insulting the intelligence of everyone else here as well.
And don't attempt to imply that I'm upset either. That would border on troll-bait.

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Illegal immigrant is a status (civil?) offense regardless of when or how their entry was initially made. A good number, some even claim most, enter legally yet overstay their temporary visas.

dcaraz said:

Indeed. Thank you Mr. Trump! As millions of your fellow citizens worry about an unhinged Commander in Chief, we are for the first time since King Richard Nixon's reign
discussing on a daily basis the potential threat to our economy, our alliances, and our constitution that this deranged man might cause.
I was politicized over the Vietnam War lies, followed by Nixon's Enemies List, Watergate, more lies and finally prison sentances.
I'm glad you're unbothered by what I see as a menace to America and our global relations.

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Easy to throw stones, eh?

There's nothing deranged about instituting tariffs against all those who already use tariffs against the US in their own arsenal of weapons. There is nothing deranged when telling allies, you want our protection, pay for it. There is nothing deranged about choosing which immigrants we want or protecting our borders. There is nothing deranged about cutting off funding to UNRA which has promoted terrorism against the US and others. There is nothing deranged in forcing a conversation of NATO's place in a post cold war world.

Germany won what it wanted during WWII, control of Europe. Is this the ally we want? Or do we want an ally who fought against the Germans during WWII, a nation which like us rejected divine rule?

Yes, these are conversations that were swept under the rug, and you, you specifically need these conversations, be thankful.

Woody Guthrie wrote on his guitar, "This guitar kills fascists." Don't dare go near his guitar. You need a good long look in the mirror.

OldFatGuy said:

Germany won what it wanted during WWII, control of Europe. Is this the ally we want? Or do we want an ally who fought against the Germans during WWII, a nation which like us rejected divine rule?

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You're actually comparing our German ally of today to the Third Reich?
You can be done with me right now.
You're right, you are not my "dude", you're Putin's.

Harshaw said:

Whereas going by your post, it's really just the "red" (Republicans) who shouldn't be trusted.

Yeah, this is helpful.

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I will clarify. since your assumption is incorrect. Many who want to wield power are corrupt. or can be corrupted--regardless of their party affiliation.
A pox on both major US parties...when they screw things up, like selling out the citizens for PAC money from those with deep pockets.

Right now, one party, the Republican Party controls the whole enchilada in DC. So, if we disagree with this president's attacks on everyone from the FBI to Canada,
from the CIA professionals to NATO, and from the media to anyone who refuses to kiss his ring of loyalty, who exactly are we to accuse of the massive BS currently going on?

Of course, if you support the previously mentioned massive BS, then you'll misquote me as being harsh on GOPers and soft on Dems, while I am begging for some common sense and civility.
I spend time in DP trying to share thoughts, not to have folks fabricate what my posts mean. That's called dialogue.

Captain Adverse said:

If you quote please provide a link.

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http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...the-media-is-the-enemy-of-the-american-people

Meanwhile, taking your quote at face value, why do you seem to think listing four or five of the "big names" equates to the entire news/media "press?"

He appears to have left out several major sources, i.e. you noted FOX, WaPo, but forgot the Wall Street Journal, the AP, the UP, US News, and literally hundreds of other independent and semi-independent news agencies around the nation printing papers, televising, and vlogging/posting on the internet.

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I can only quote Trump on the others if he mentions them. I did NOT say he called ALL MEDIA fake or “enemy of the people”.
Here’s a list Trump seemed pleased with that wasn’t subject to twitter character limitations or his own media diet:

https://gop.com/the-highly-anticipated-2017-fake-news-awards/

And a fact check of the claims:
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...fact-checking-donald-trumps-fake-news-awards/

Trump has singled out Fox shows and personalities for praise repeatedly. Has he ever mentioned a newswire like AP? What “media” has he praised rather than demonized as “enemy of the people”? You do realize that he’s the first POTUS to do that, correct? No, Obama calling out Fox a few times over 8 years was nothing like this. We are in uncharted waters, and have been since at least Trump’s nomination by the GOP.

Just because he may have pointed to several of the "major" sites listed, it is also true that they have been posting nothing but negatively slanted reports ad nauseum including misrepresenting and misleading items.

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It does not mean he stated that ALL news is "Fake News." [/QUOTE]

A POTUS needs to be a bit less of a baby when it comes to criticism. Live by the insult, and you might have to deal with a few insults yourself. Not that that is what the media is generally doing, but insults are Trump’s MO. He simply can’t handle anything but fawning praise without lashing out. If Trump, and you, think the media has been unfair to Trump, that's fine. That does NOT, in any way, shape or form excuse Trump calling major media outlets that he doesn't like "enemy of the people". Trump, and his supporters are not the only Americans. That is just Palinism ratcheted up 12 notches.

You just chose to see it that way. :shrug:

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As do many tens of millions of others.

My personal reactions to his administration are based on policy, not his infantile personality – that part is simply amusing…for now. If he really starts taking legal or other actions to force private companies to mold coverage to his liking it will be a new ballgame.

dcaraz said:

I will clarify. since your assumption is incorrect. Many who want to wield power are corrupt. or can be corrupted--regardless of their party affiliation.
A pox on both major US parties...when they screw things up, like selling out the citizens for PAC money from those with deep pockets.

Right now, one party, the Republican Party controls the whole enchilada in DC. So, if we disagree with this president's attacks on everyone from the FBI to Canada,
from the CIA professionals to NATO, and from the media to anyone who refuses to kiss his ring of loyalty, who exactly are we to accuse of the massive BS currently going on?

Of course, if you support the previously mentioned massive BS, then you'll misquote me as being harsh on GOPers and soft on Dems, while I am begging for some common sense and civility.
I spend time in DP trying to share thoughts, not to have folks fabricate what my posts mean. That's called dialogue.

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I don't have to "misquote you"; everything you said was blasting Republicans.

Germany won what it wanted during WWII, control of Europe. Is this the ally we want? Or do we want an ally who fought against the Germans during WWII, a nation which like us rejected divine rule?

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Oh, you must mean the UK, our oldest ally? Or are you really rooting for Trump's buddy, Mr. KGB himself? If you care about American democratic freedom, which I have my doubts, you need to check out Putin's growing friendship with Xi's China--and their recent combined war games in Siberia with 300,000 troops, 34,000 tanks, and over 1000 aircraft. And you have the nerve to call me a fascist? I'll stick with NATO, as well as strengthen America's alliances across Asia, like our recent agreements with India.

dcaraz said:

Oh, you must mean the UK, our oldest ally? Or are you really rooting for Trump's buddy, Mr. KGB himself? If you care about American democratic freedom, which I have my doubts, you need to check out Putin's growing friendship with Xi's China--and their recent combined war games in Siberia with 300,000 troops, 34,000 tanks, and over 1000 aircraft. And you have the nerve to call me a fascist? I'll stick with NATO, as well as strengthen America's alliances across Asia, like our recent agreements with India.

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Time for a history lesson. The first nation to recognize the US, Morocco in 1777, followed by France in 1778, then Spain, followed by Russia both also during 1778. The British resumed war with the US in 1812, expecting to regain its territory and colonies. Where did you go to school? Or did you?

The only ships to break the blockade of the Confederacy by the Union, flew the British flag. That included ships belonging to the confederates.

My personal reactions to his administration are based on policy, not his infantile personality – that part is simply amusing…for now.

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Best not to wait too long to stand up against someone who likes to act like an all-powerful strong man who demands personal loyalty to himself from everyone around him.
The Nazi Party didn't begin by threatening every German. They began by attacking Germany's free press. Then the Jews. Then anyone who spoke out.
Mark my words--Trump is NOT an infantile brat. He's dangerous. Especially since his own party--the party in power-- trembles at his every tweet. So who will reign him in?
Citizens who voice their concerns in forums like this one, don't need to be called fascists because we see danger. Argue my points, but don't insult my motives or my intelligence.
I for one feel obligated to challenge our current state of affairs--even if some wish to shout me down. Consider it a friendly warning to a neighbor. Your house is on fire!

95% of the people will blame everyone else for their problems.

The other 5% will try to fix it for them..... and be scalded for their efforts.

The only ships to break the blockade of the Confederacy by the Union, flew the British flag. That included ships belonging to the confederates.

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I'm not sure I can discuss the current world situation with someone who:
A) adores Russia over the nation we share the most with
B) still roots for the Confederate States to win
C) Must in every post make derogatory remarks

You must like to argue and piss folks off. Go to Russia if you love that government so much. I won't visit. Putin is a murder, the Russian people are lied to decade after decade,
their economy is shrinking, but Putin uses military invasions to win admiration--oh, Putin kills spies living in democracies and brainwashes US citizens in online forums like this one.
Wait. You wouldn't be on the payroll of the GRU?

OldFatGuy said:

Time for a history lesson. The first nation to recognize the US, Morocco in 1777, followed by France in 1778, then Spain, followed by Russia both also during 1778. The British resumed war with the US in 1812, expecting to regain its territory and colonies. Where did you go to school? Or did you?

The only ships to break the blockade of the Confederacy by the Union, flew the British flag. That included ships belonging to the confederates.

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We're done. You don't get to teach me history, tovareesh.
Go kiss Putin's ring if that's what gets you off.

<alt>doxygen said:

Trump tweets: The media is the 'enemy of the American people' | TheHill

I can only quote Trump on the others if he mentions them. I did NOT say he called ALL MEDIA fake or “enemy of the people”.
Here’s a list Trump seemed pleased with that wasn’t subject to twitter character limitations or his own media diet:

https://gop.com/the-highly-anticipated-2017-fake-news-awards/

[/B]
And a fact check of the claims:
https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-...fact-checking-donald-trumps-fake-news-awards/

Trump has singled out Fox shows and personalities for praise repeatedly. Has he ever mentioned a newswire like AP? What “media” has he praised rather than demonized as “enemy of the people”? You do realize that he’s the first POTUS to do that, correct? No, Obama calling out Fox a few times over 8 years was nothing like this. We are in uncharted waters, and have been since at least Trump’s nomination by the GOP.


It does not mean he stated that ALL news is "Fake News."

A POTUS needs to be a bit less of a baby when it comes to criticism. Live by the insult, and you might have to deal with a few insults yourself. Not that that is what the media is generally doing, but insults are Trump’s MO. He simply can’t handle anything but fawning praise without lashing out. If Trump, and you, think the media has been unfair to Trump, that's fine. That does NOT, in any way, shape or form excuse Trump calling major media outlets that he doesn't like "enemy of the people". Trump, and his supporters are not the only Americans. That is just Palinism ratcheted up 12 notches.

As do many tens of millions of others.

My personal reactions to his administration are based on policy, not his infantile personality – that part is simply amusing…for now. If he really starts taking legal or other actions to force private companies to mold coverage to his liking it will be a new ballgame.

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1. Again, citing a few members of a rather large group as "examples" of purveyors of "Fake News" does not indict the entire press. The fact is, despite all attempts to mislead and misrepresent, and dressing it up any way you like Trump NEVER said "The PRESS is the enemy of the people."

2. The list of incidents in your citation of "fake news" are just SOME of the many examples of how the MSM has mislead, misrepresented, and outright lied about things Mr. Trump said and did. Funny how so many people like to call the President a serial liar, yet constantly ignore or dismiss the many lies, exaggerations, and misleading stories posted by some prominent "News" organizations.

3. Wow, so he singles out FOX news for praise, but doesn't praise all the other major MSM organizations who spend all day and night attacking him on anything and everything and you think THAT proves HIS bias? :doh I do not know for a fact he has not "praised" other news sources, but not doing so is not evidence of his dislike either. Fake news exists, publishing fake news in a propaganda effort to undermine anyone, much less the leader of the nation is a "very bad thing," doing a disservice to the alleged Code of Ethics of a "Free Press" while still working within that guarantee. The latter is why publications like the National Inquirer can print it's fake stories and sell it's papers.

4. So tens of millions of people have one opinion. I counter with the fact that tens of millions have an opposite opinion. So what?

5. You have every right to your personal opinion as do I. But that does not give you or anyone else license to get away with misrepresenting what someone actually said via twisting it into something you prefer to believe he meant. THAT is intentional deception, something your side keeps accusing the President of.

dcaraz said:

I'm not sure I can discuss the current world situation with someone who:
A) adores Russia over the nation we share the most with
B) still roots for the Confederate States to win
C) Must in every post make derogatory remarks

You must like to argue and piss folks off. Go to Russia if you love that government so much. I won't visit. Putin is a murder, the Russian people are lied to decade after decade,
their economy is shrinking, but Putin uses military invasions to win admiration--oh, Putin kills spies living in democracies and brainwashes US citizens in online forums like this one.
Wait. You wouldn't be on the payroll of the GRU?

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I seem to remember him saying he's former law enforcement. Thank God I never lived in his jurisdiction.