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If the President lies...

Hawkeye10 said:
Worse was Bush lying to sell his invasion. Honorable mention to Obama for claiming to be fixing the medical system as he pretended to not notice its main flaw, and did nothing about it.
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yep. All those dead kids and dead iraqi civilians are on Bush's hands.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Worse was Bush lying to sell his invasion. Honorable mention to Obama for claiming to be fixing the medical system as he pretended to not notice its main flaw, and did nothing about it.
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I don't think Obama ever thought Obamacare was perfect. Just better than what we had before. I agree that the corners Bush cut in selling the invasion were terrible, with dreadful results. At least Trumps constant lies rebound mainly on himself. For the next 3 1/2 years we won't get anything done with anyone because everyone knows that Trump in an unreliable negotiating partner. Hopefully, the body count will be minimal.
 
bearpoker said:
Agreed! He never made a secret of what he was. Some people just didn't see it. Others did, but voted for him anyway because they thought the system needed shaking up. I just hope the Democrats wake up one of these days and start connecting with people like they used to.
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When he had not changed by the end of may 2016 it was clear to me that he was not going to...when he had not changed by the convention everyone should have known. This is who we wanted, the Elite Class dont get to veto our choice just because Trump refuses to follow their style, that is to say refuses to act "Presidential", not after all of the lies and bad work they have handed in over the years.
 
bearpoker said:
I don't think Obama ever thought Obamacare was perfect. Just better than what we had before. I agree that the corners Bush cut in selling the invasion were terrible, with dreadful results. At least Trumps constant lies rebound mainly on himself. For the next 3 1/2 years we won't get anything done with anyone because everyone knows that Trump in an unreliable negotiating partner. Hopefully, the body count will be minimal.
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He said he was fixing healthcare, he made the problem worse.....this was never about fixing how our broken healthcare system is bankrupting the nation for him, this was about social justice to him.

As my friend Chomsky said somewhere yesterday Obama is a smart well spoken thinker....but he is lazy, does not mind lying about important things to the nation, and he has bad judgment.

And look where we are now....
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
When he had not changed by the end of may 2016 it was clear to me that he was not going to...when he had not changed by the convention everyone should have known. This is who we wanted, the Elite Class dont get to veto our choice just because Trump refuses to follow their style, that is to say refuses to act "Presidential", not after all of the lies and bad work they have handed in over the years.
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You might have wanted him. I never did. I accept that he is the duly elected president of the United States. I just don't like it. No biggie, really. We'll just have to pick up the pieces when he's gone.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
When he had not changed by the end of may 2016 it was clear to me that he was not going to...when he had not changed by the convention everyone should have known. This is who we wanted, the Elite Class dont get to veto our choice just because Trump refuses to follow their style, that is to say refuses to act "Presidential", not after all of the lies and bad work they have handed in over the years.
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Correction. This is who you wanted. A majority of the country would much rather have had someone else win that election.
 
calamity said:
Correction. This is who you wanted. A majority of the country would much rather have had someone else win that election.
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Ah yes, the theoretical "someone else"....
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Ah yes, the theoretical "someone else"....
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Hey, Trump only claimed to have won by a landslide. Even he didn't say it was unanimous.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
He said he was fixing healthcare, he made the problem worse.....this was never about fixing how our broken healthcare system is bankrupting the nation for him, this was about social justice to him.

As my friend Chomsky said somewhere yesterday Obama is a smart well spoken thinker....but he is lazy, does not mind lying about important things to the nation, and he has bad judgment.

And look where we are now....
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For all its' faults, Obamacare insured 27 more people than had been insured previously. Millions more would have been insured if more Republican states would have accepted the Medicaid expansion. The problems with the marketplace, the part that's really in trouble are fixable. Trump pees on your leg, tells you it's raining and you believe him.
 
SocialD said:
It matters. but how much it matters depends on what the lie was about and the context of it.
As to would we be tolerant of it etc... just saying Bill Clinton pretty much answers that.
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You're supposed to lie about sex...
 
bearpoker said:
For all its' faults, Obamacare insured 27 more people than had been insured previously. Millions more would have been insured if more Republican states would have accepted the Medicaid expansion. The problems with the marketplace, the part that's really in trouble are fixable. Trump pees on your leg, tells you it's raining and you believe him.
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Thus driving down rationing and driving up costs....that is to say going in the wrong direction.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
He said he was fixing healthcare, he made the problem worse.....this was never about fixing how our broken healthcare system is bankrupting the nation for him, this was about social justice to him.

As my friend Chomsky said somewhere yesterday Obama is a smart well spoken thinker....but he is lazy, does not mind lying about important things to the nation, and he has bad judgment.

And look where we are now....
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The problem with Obama's plan is that he thought he could compromise with the Republicans. So he scrapped the single payer system he originally wanted, like they have in every other developed economy in the world. Instead he went with this convoluted mess of the individual mandate we have now, thinking it was the right's own idea from the Heritage Foundation from way back in 1989, and they might like it. There was no reason he needed to do that. He didn't realize was that the right just hated HIM, personally, and so was going to fight anything he proposed. It was not about the policies.

If he had done that, the US would have had the healthcare coverage system and security of mind that is offered to citizens of all other advanced and economically developed nations, instead of this mess we have now.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Thus driving down rationing and driving up costs....that is to say going in the wrong direction.
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You've got to be the only person in the world in favor of rationing health care. The Medicaid expansion is driving down costs in the states where it has been implemented. Are you looking forward to the return of lifetime limits and cancellation of insurance when the insured actually get sick?
 
ataraxia said:
The problem with Obama's plan is that he thought he could compromise with the Republicans. So he scrapped the single payer system he originally wanted, like they have in every other developed economy in the world. Instead he went with this convoluted mess of the individual mandate we have now, thinking it was the right's own idea from the Heritage Foundation from way back in 1989. There was no reason he needed to do that. And the US would have had the healthcare coverage that is offered to citizens of all other advanced and economically developed nations, instead of this mess.
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He went with this mess because conservative Democrats wouldn't go along with single payer. You can't blame the Republicans for this one, any more than you can blame Democrats for repeal not passing.
 
bearpoker said:
You've got to be the only person in the world in favor of rationing health care. The Medicaid expansion is driving down costs in the states where it has been implemented. Are you looking forward to the return of lifetime limits and cancellation of insurance when the insured actually get sick?
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It is a requirement, it does not matter what I want.

Let people consume as much healthcare as they want and the country grinds to a halt due to lack of funds or hyperinflation, pick your poison.
 
ataraxia said:
The problem with Obama's plan is that he thought he could compromise with the Republicans. So he scrapped the single payer system he originally wanted, like they have in every other developed economy in the world. Instead he went with this convoluted mess of the individual mandate we have now, thinking it was the right's own idea from the Heritage Foundation from way back in 1989, and they might like it. There was no reason he needed to do that. He didn't realize was that the right just hated HIM, personally, and so was going to fight anything he proposed. It was not about the policies.

If he had done that, the US would have had the healthcare coverage system and security of mind that is offered to citizens of all other advanced and economically developed nations, instead of this mess we have now.
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Single payer is the sensible thing to do, but it will only solve maybe 15% of the problem at best, at worse it makes the problem worse because this government always is found handing out candy on the kids and grandkids credit card, they refuse to make choices, just like the people refuse to work together towards sensible choices while denying the unsensible. When that happens with helathcare people tend to line up at the doctors office often, demanding pills and the most expensive gadgity tests. Based upon the medical inflation over my lifetime and as much as this has been driven by poor government choices I kinda figure single payer drives up costs if the government is that single payer.

If we ever fix Washington maybe we could talk, but at the moment we are still determined to drive in reverse.

We be some stupid ****s.
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
It is a requirement, it does not matter what I want.

Let people consume as much healthcare as they want and the country grinds to a halt due to lack of funds or hyperinflation, pick your poison.
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Funny how all the other industrialized countries are chugging along just fine with single payer, spending less money, achieving better results. How come it wouldn't be the same for us? Are we too stupid to do it as well as they do?
 
Hawkeye10 said:
Single payer is the sensible thing to do, but it will only solve maybe 15% of the problem at best, at worse it makes the problem worse because this government always is found handing out candy on the kids and grandkids credit card, they refuse to make choices, just like the people refuse to work together towards sensible choices while denying the unsensible. Based upon the medical inflation over my lifetime and as much as this has been driven by poor gpovernment choices I kinda figure single payer drives up costs if the government is that single payer.
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Medicaid drives cost down. The problem is the marketplace where the insurance companies are concerned with profit, not cost containment.
 
bearpoker said:
Medicaid drives cost down. The problem is the marketplace where the insurance companies are concerned with profit, not cost containment.
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By not being fair to providers, which not sustainable, "saving" no nowhere nears enough to fix the cost problem in this very broke health system, known to be deeply broken since at least 1984, but never fixed.
 
bearpoker said:
Funny how all the other industrialized countries are chugging along just fine with single payer, spending less money, achieving better results. How come it wouldn't be the same for us? Are we too stupid to do it as well as they do?
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They do a ton of other things different too , plus they tend to pay a whole lot less for drugs, but you ignore all that.....or maybe you have never heard, I dont know you.
 
Hawkeye10 said:
They do a ton of other things different too , plus they tend to pay a whole lot less for drugs, but you ignore all that.....or maybe you have never heard, I dont know you.
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Maybe I misjudged you. Are you advocating single payer and reigning in the drug company profits? I am with you 100%!!!
 
bearpoker said:
Maybe I misjudged you. Are you advocating single payer and reigning in the drug company profits? I am with you 100%!!!
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Yes, but nothing will work till we fix Washington, both the low quality of people and the naked corruption.

Healthcare does need to be rationed though, and until we as a nation get to be smart enough to figure this out we ain't fixing ****. (a lot of that money needs to be not spent in the last two years of life...what we do is freaking insane...because we constitutionally (personally) can'T say no to dying people who want more healthcare than can be reasonably justified).



WE ARE STUPID

WE ARE WEAK
 
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Hawkeye10 said:
Yes, but nothing will work till we fix Washington, both the low quality of people and the naked corruption.

Healthcare does need to be rationed though, and until we as a nation get to be smart enough to figure this out we ain't fixing ****. (a lot of that money needs to be not spent in the last two years of life...what we do is freaking insane...because we constitutionally (personally) can'T say no to dying people who want more healthcare than can be reasonably justified).

WE ARE STUPID

WE ARE WEAK
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We'd spend a lot less money on the last 2 years if we spent a little more on the previous 70+. An ounce of prevention and all that.
 
bearpoker said:
We'd spend a lot less money on the last 2 years if we spent a little more on the previous 70+. An ounce of prevention and all that.
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No, I dont think so.

BTW you might have noticed that Obama came off that whole "Preventative medicine will save us money" jazz along the trail when a big study came out showing that once we give people "insurance" for preventative medicine that they line up for so much medical care consumption that there is no seeing this so called savings for good healthcare.....the bills are bigger as far as the eye can see, because people want, and they want more when billions or tens of billions of dollars a year (Or is it HUNDREDS of BILLIONS??] are spent on direct advertising in 1984 fashion directing people to "services" and in "free samples" to get people hooked.

Plus people pointed out that that's was what HMO's were supposed to be all about in the 1980's, and that sure did not work.
 
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