• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Partisan Politics

Peter King said:
It should come as no surprise that I do not fully agree with that, or should I say mostly disagree with that.

But it is true that we do not put the same level of money as the US does for the military, but that comes mostly because we think the US is the one out of the normal spending pattern and not us. Sure it would not hurt that we invest a bit more, but under no circumstance will we be going into the US levels of military spending.

And how have we been "increasing the cost of US internet security"?
Click to expand...

Actually the K and France were spending almost double the amount Germany was and sometimes more. But I wonder how a country's population could estimate, what is required to keep the world relatively safe for trade flows and business, if it has never had to do so.

As to American internet security, my guess is that the US outspends European countries by miles. We might all have to spend more and restructure our usage of the internet, however, as attacks appear easier to launch than defense.
 
Partisan politics has not done us any favors but to keep both parties in power. It puzzles me why sheeple vote party line, defend their party and their candidate no matter what. What puzzles me even more is when registered members of one party or another complain about partisan politics. Makes no sense to me at all.
We see it here on daily basis, members attacking the other side viciously and without mercy.
That's all I have to say on the topic.
 
fatuous1 said:
This is what partisan politicians and the mainstream media has done to U.S.

https://www.facebook.com/NRATV/videos/10154827762392898/

demonize and dehumanize one another, as well as, the rest of U.S.!

"Americans come in all shapes, sizes and colors, and that's what makes U.S. great" (TRAINAISM)

fatuous1
Click to expand...

Oh the delicious hypocrisy.

New Orleans school psychologist defends racist Twitter account

Racist Tweets From New Orleans School Psychologist - YouTube

You're really quite famous aren't you ? I'm curious to know how this story unfolded. Did you keep your job ?
 
Cisero said:
The enemy in the scenario presented by PK is Russia. You have to admit it's curious that the victim of the cyber attack (U.S, Trump) wants to work with the attacker to improve security (Russia, Vlad).
Click to expand...

Trump and Putin both agree that security is the answer. That is not working with Russia on our security systems. I don't like Putin one bit but I completely agree that better security is the answer. Only a fool would think telling Russia and all the other countries currently spying and hacking our government and businesses is the answer. Our allies have been caught spying on us. Trump told the DNC the same thing better security will prevent the next hack not telling the world to stop spying and hacking. Time to grow up and accept reality.

I have security on my home, car, computer, etc. because works better than telling all the bad people in this world not to do wrong. Accept reality already.
 
Peter King said:
Working with the Russians is working with the enemy.
Click to expand...

Improving relations between our country and Russia is a positive goal. Promoting hate between our countries is stupid and clearly not and accomplishment. God Help us.

Peter King said:
And that will not lead to increased security but more insecurity.
Click to expand...

We can improve relations between our countries and increase our security. I can still lock the door to my house and set the alarm as well as try and be nice to a neighbor I don't have a good relation with.

At one time we were at war with Britain and now they are one of our strongest allies. There is no reason we cannot strive to be better friends and even an ally of Russia.
 
Peter King said:
Working with the Russians is working with the enemy. And that will not lead to increased security but more insecurity.
Click to expand...
What are we supposed to do? Show everyone the finger? Ever heard of diplomacy? Wasn't that something so many admired Obama for?
Working with Russia, and getting them to the table, might not be a bad idea. Reagan and Gorbachev managed to free a few people that way.
Wishful thinking, but if the US and Russia came together to find a solution for Syria, we would curtail the refugee crisis by a big margin and save a lot of lives. Of course everything on a trust but verify basis.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Improving relations between our country and Russia is a positive goal. Promoting hate between our countries is stupid and clearly not and accomplishment. God Help us.



We can improve relations between our countries and increase our security. I can still lock the door to my house and set the alarm as well as try and be nice to a neighbor I don't have a good relation with.

At one time we were at war with Britain and now they are one of our strongest allies. There is no reason we cannot strive to be better friends and even an ally of Russia.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but Putin.

If there is true amoral evil, it's Putin.

Walk softly and all that.

Trust but verify.

Not "cut it out".
 
What if...? said:
Yeah, but Putin.

If there is true amoral evil, it's Putin.

Walk softly and all that.

Trust but verify.

Not "cut it out".
Click to expand...

Clearly security is needed which is exactly what Trump and Putin said. The DNC got hacked because their security was not up to the task. Look at Hillary and e-mails. More lack of security. Pathetic. Crying about your house getting robbed when you leave the front door open is a joke. Grow up and lock the door.

Putin is all about benefitting Russia. He is going to spy, hack and take every advantage he can for his country. He has been doing this long before he became president of Russia. He was KGB. He understands the importance of security and intelligence gathering. Using any and all information gathered to help his country. The DNC got schooled by Putin and instead of working to make sure he doesn't do it again to them they keep crying foul. Putin handed them their backside exposing the corruption in their party. Time to grow and take Trump and Putin's advice and get your security up to world standards.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Clearly security is needed which is exactly what Trump and Putin said. The DNC got hacked because their security was not up to the task. Look at Hillary and e-mails. More lack of security. Pathetic. Crying about your house getting robbed when you leave the front door open is a joke. Grow up and lock the door.

Putin is all about benefitting Russia. He is going to spy, hack and take every advantage he can for his country. He has been doing this long before he became president of Russia. He was KGB. He understands the importance of security and intelligence gathering. Using any and all information gathered to help his country. The DNC got schooled by Putin and instead of working to make sure he doesn't do it again to them they keep crying foul. Putin handed them their backside exposing the corruption in their party. Time to grow and take Trump and Putin's advice and get your security up to world standards.
Click to expand...

And of course Putin will have all the passwords and back doors.

Great plan.

How about we work on our security and let Russia handle their own?

Don't see any upside to working with the fox to guard the henhouse.
 
What if...? said:
And of course Putin will have all the passwords and back doors.

Great plan.

How about we work on our security and let Russia handle their own?

Don't see any upside to working with the fox to guard the henhouse.
Click to expand...

Putin clearly had no problem hacking into the DNC under Obama's watch.:lamo:lamo

I say let Trump and the republicans show you how it is done. :thumbs::thumbs:
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Putin clearly had no problem hacking into the DNC under Obama's watch.:lamo:lamo

I say let Trump and the republicans show you how it is done. :thumbs::thumbs:
Click to expand...

Why would they stop Putin?

Not in their best interests.
 
joG said:
As I believe I pointed out, the details are multiple, complex and not easily argued outside of formal models. But the facts are simple. If you allow your people to buy, what others produce, then the others develop. The US stepped up to the plate, when it was unspeakably wealthy and the Europeans thrived. In the 1970s the Europeans should have started doing the same, but instead could not develop into developed economies and preferred to continue the leeching on the American "development program" that had bootstrapped them out of poverty. This was extremely expensive for the US, but much worse for the developed countries as it siphoned off buying power.
Click to expand...

The US stepped up to the plate? The US made a fortune IMHO from the world having to buy all products from the US. There may have been a level of just wanting to help out Europe. But let's face facts, the US was the only nation in the world with production capacity. The UK spent all their money and energy fighting the Germans and they were bombed a good deal.

France was bombed to hell/fought to hell, Belgium was also, the Netherlands the same, Germany bombed to hell, Poland Russian, all of the East block Russian, Austria destroyed, Italy the same, Spain was a dictatorship, etc. etc. etc.

The US stepped up to the plate because they were the only one who could produce stuff, had ample raw materials, etc. And let's not fool ourselves, US companies did not loose money on those deals. And I am sorry, but in the 70's the EU economy was doing well (until the oil crisis) and was even overheating.

But the problem for the US and their dwindling exports was that US companies went to Europe and started producing there for the local market, other companies exported jobs to low income countries. This is a very complex issue but it starts with over consumption IMHO, the US gobbles up too much of everything. Most other countries do not have horrendous product warehouses, they have supermarkets and other huge outlets.

Over consumption combined with lack of production is what led to the US trade deficit. Not what the EU did but what the US did. The trade balance between the EU and the United States in 2014 was 94 billion negative (US imported more than it exported) but that is a drop in the sea compared to the 505 billion that the US had as a trade deficit that year. The trade deficit with China that year was 324.6 billion. And that is the real problem. Not the EU, sure it would be nice if it were a bit more balanced but the US exports mostly services to Europe and that will never get you a full trade balance because anything that the US produces mostly is consumed in the US (which is totally fine by me, but it does lead to trade imbalances).
 
joG said:
Actually the K and France were spending almost double the amount Germany was and sometimes more. But I wonder how a country's population could estimate, what is required to keep the world relatively safe for trade flows and business, if it has never had to do so.

As to American internet security, my guess is that the US outspends European countries by miles. We might all have to spend more and restructure our usage of the internet, however, as attacks appear easier to launch than defense.
Click to expand...

And that is because Germany does not have nuclear weapons which France and the UK do have. The Germans have a smaller navy compared to the UK and France if I am not mistaken and that causes a lot of the difference in spending. If France and the UK did not have those expenses for the nukes and their navy, they would be much more in line with Germany.

And there is this with Germany, other countries still get a bit "nervous" when Germany ramps up military spending. We have had 2 world wars, we do not want another one.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
Improving relations between our country and Russia is a positive goal. Promoting hate between our countries is stupid and clearly not and accomplishment. God Help us.



We can improve relations between our countries and increase our security. I can still lock the door to my house and set the alarm as well as try and be nice to a neighbor I don't have a good relation with.

At one time we were at war with Britain and now they are one of our strongest allies. There is no reason we cannot strive to be better friends and even an ally of Russia.
Click to expand...

If Russia was not such an evil empire under Putin it might have been but this Russia is almost as wicked as the old Soviet Union when it comes to being able to trust them.
 
Peter King said:
Not to be too confrontational, but you sure don't sound like a moderate, you seem very focused on things moderates are not that focused on and this love song to "the Donald making America great again" surely is non-moderate in nature.

And meeting Putin and coming back with a "let's join together with the ones who hacked our election and make it better" is anything but making America great again, it is making America vulnerable by allowing Russians government officials (and their hackers) access to US systems they before had to hack for and now "The Donnie" wants to make them get there legally? No way, that is just plain stupid.
Click to expand...

"I am not a Good Democrat, nor am I a Bad Republican, but rather, a Proud Red-Blooded American Citizen" (TRAINAISM)
 
Peter King said:
And that is because Germany does not have nuclear weapons which France and the UK do have. The Germans have a smaller navy compared to the UK and France if I am not mistaken and that causes a lot of the difference in spending. If France and the UK did not have those expenses for the nukes and their navy, they would be much more in line with Germany.

And there is this with Germany, other countries still get a bit "nervous" when Germany ramps up military spending. We have had 2 world wars, we do not want another one.
Click to expand...

Free riders always throw up smoke screens to disguise their asocial behavior. That is the nature of the beast. The stories are usually complex and use a mesh of truth and of false story lines like in your above very remarkable piece.

But let's take the short piece, where the same method is attempted. But it it falls down more easily visible. Why? Because it is totally irrelevant why a country is free riding. And that is exactly what a country is doing that is rich and lives soly from secure international trade but spends less than half, than its direct competitors spend as a relative portion of gdp on the purely public good security and cannot field a force 20 percent that of a smaller and less wealthy country. Oh yes. Germany has been a free rider of the worst kind. And it has not been Germany alone. That is why the European politicians are so worried. They know it is true.
 
Lovebug said:
What are we supposed to do? Show everyone the finger? Ever heard of diplomacy? Wasn't that something so many admired Obama for?
Working with Russia, and getting them to the table, might not be a bad idea. Reagan and Gorbachev managed to free a few people that way.
Wishful thinking, but if the US and Russia came together to find a solution for Syria, we would curtail the refugee crisis by a big margin and save a lot of lives. Of course everything on a trust but verify basis.
Click to expand...

Diplomacy is fine, spooning with Russia is not fine. They shot down a commercial airliner with hundreds of passengers (with one of the BUK missile systems) and they are untrustworthy. The Ukraine knows everything about how untrustworthy they are.
 
fatuous1 said:
"I am not a Good Democrat, nor am I a Bad Republican, but rather, a Proud Red-Blooded American Citizen" (TRAINAISM)
Click to expand...

Sure, but that does not make someone a moderate. A moderate is someone with moderate ideas. Trump is not a moderate for example and most republicans are also not moderates (sure there are a few but they are not too great in numbers in the senate and the House).
 
joG said:
Free riders always throw up smoke screens to disguise their asocial behavior. That is the nature of the beast. The stories are usually complex and use a mesh of truth and of false story lines like in your above very remarkable piece.

But let's take the short piece, where the same method is attempted. But it it falls down more easily visible. Why? Because it is totally irrelevant why a country is free riding. And that is exactly what a country is doing that is rich and lives soly from secure international trade but spends less than half, than its direct competitors spend as a relative portion of gdp on the purely public good security and cannot field a force 20 percent that of a smaller and less wealthy country. Oh yes. Germany has been a free rider of the worst kind. And it has not been Germany alone. That is why the European politicians are so worried. They know it is true.
Click to expand...

Except we are not free riders. Again, the outliers are not the EU countries but the outlier is the United States. Should the EU pay more, yes and it will, but European countries still have to balance their budgets too, we are not the US who just keeps borrowing to keep an unsustainable military machinery in place. The US outspends the next couple of countries together on the military budget, that is the reality.
 
Peter King said:
Except we are not free riders. Again, the outliers are not the EU countries but the outlier is the United States. Should the EU pay more, yes and it will, but European countries still have to balance their budgets too, we are not the US who just keeps borrowing to keep an unsustainable military machinery in place. The US outspends the next couple of countries together on the military budget, that is the reality.
Click to expand...

Oh, but with the exception of France and the UK the Europeans have more or less been free riders. It is true that some of the countries sent contingents into security making situations. Countries like Holland even took relatively high losses. But it is absolutely wrong to think that the level of participation was anywhere close to the costs of international security under who net the whole European business model took place. Why, you even admit they must pay more implying too little now and before. For interest's sake, just do the rough and dirty calculation. Let's assume German spent 1 Percent per annum less than say France over two decades. I have not looked up the number just now and think it might have been more. But assuming those numbers, the effect would be a net cumulative difference of 20 Percent of a year's GDP. The cumulative effect would be larger, as the cash was spent on other things that improved the free riding society and gave its economy a significant advantage.
 
Peter King said:
If Russia was not such an evil empire under Putin it might have been but this Russia is almost as wicked as the old Soviet Union when it comes to being able to trust them.
Click to expand...

So your contention is we should not ever try and improve relations between our countries. Unbelievable.
 
joG said:
Oh, but with the exception of France and the UK the Europeans have more or less been free riders. It is true that some of the countries sent contingents into security making situations. Countries like Holland even took relatively high losses. But it is absolutely wrong to think that the level of participation was anywhere close to the costs of international security under who net the whole European business model took place. Why, you even admit they must pay more implying too little now and before. For interest's sake, just do the rough and dirty calculation. Let's assume German spent 1 Percent per annum less than say France over two decades. I have not looked up the number just now and think it might have been more. But assuming those numbers, the effect would be a net cumulative difference of 20 Percent of a year's GDP. The cumulative effect would be larger, as the cash was spent on other things that improved the free riding society and gave its economy a significant advantage.
Click to expand...

But should we as Europe pay for the US's obsession with having massively sized armed forces? It was the US and Russia who were egging each other on in the Nuclear and other arms race. The Russian threat was, ever since the communists in the Soviet Union bottomed out and disappeared into the annals of history, greatly reduced. Before the crash and burn of the Russian empire there they MAY have been a need for such a big army/navy/air force but after that threat was gone the US was the only superpower on earth. But the US politicians kept ramping up their military might and let us be honest, even with and it would still be the worlds greatest superpower with a massive reduction in armed forces IMHO.

But the wheels of the US economy are partly greased with a massive army. It is a job provider, constant huge investments into the armed forces keeps the industrial military companies happy and they profit from then getting to sell part of those weapons to other countries.

We cannot and do not want to over militarize like the US. Sorry, but no EU country will be willing to do that. We do not need to stock masses of police forces with military grade weapons because there is a huge surplus of those weapons, and I do mean a huge surplus.

And yes, there are smaller countries with huge armies but usually that is for a reason other than just trying to help world safety.

That at least is my opinion. Maybe it is not just the EU who needs to up their game a bit, but maybe it is time for the US politicians to slow down a bit (not further ramp it up like Trump wants) and that is also the partisan issue here, the democrats are less happy to spend that much money on more armed forces, more expensive equipment and new gadgets as the republicans are.
 
PIPEWRENCH said:
So your contention is we should not ever try and improve relations between our countries. Unbelievable.
Click to expand...

Did I say that? No, I did not. Sure work on our relations with the Russians but after they stop doing their evil things and have been sufficiently punished for earlier transgressions.
 
Peter King said:
Did I say that? No, I did not. Sure work on our relations with the Russians but after they stop doing their evil things and have been sufficiently punished for earlier transgressions.
Click to expand...

Maybe we should punish our leaders for spying, hacking, and interfering in other countries government. Once we stop our leaders from doing wrong then we can work on the rest of the worlds leaders. Putin and the rest of the world are either laughing or cheering the insanity of us getting all bent out of shape because Putin did to us what we have been doing to most countries in the world for 70+ years now. Let us hope Putin doesn't take a page out our history and think it is alright to attempt to assassinate our president or use their military to overthrow our government the we have done.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom