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Bug Gate or Obamagate or what shall we call it?

AlbqOwl

AlbqOwl

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How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?

What does President Obama know about that and when did he know it?

The MSM has been bending over backwards to denounce President Trump from saying it. Nancy Pelosi says "We don't do that." President Obama through his spokespeople has said "We didn't do that and couldn't have if we wanted to."

So where do we go to get the truth? Was any part of Trump Tower and/or the Trump campaign bugged? If it was, did the Obama have anything to do with it?

NOTE: Please keep this civil and on topic. There are plenty of threads out there to insult people and the President and/or his people. Here, let's put the best arguments out there that we can make pro or con on this scandal du jour whether it is our own thoughts or thoughtful arguments presented by others that makes the allegations plausible or not, likely or not, fact or not.
 
AlbqOwl said:
How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?

What does President Obama know about that and when did he know it?

The MSM has been bending over backwards to denounce President Trump from saying it. Nancy Pelosi says "We don't do that." President Obama through his spokespeople has said "We didn't do that and couldn't have if we wanted to."

So where do we go to get the truth? Was any part of Trump Tower and/or the Trump campaign bugged? If it was, did the Obama have anything to do with it?

NOTE: Please keep this civil and on topic. There are plenty of threads out there to insult people and the President and/or his people. Here, let's put the best arguments out there that we can make pro or con on this scandal du jour whether it is our own thoughts or thoughtful arguments presented by others that makes the allegations plausible or not, likely or not, fact or not.
Click to expand...

Hard to know at this point. These are serious allegations, and if there is some hint that there is some truth to it, it needs to be investigated and any wrong doing properly punished.

It may turn out that there as indeed bugging, but that it was legal and due to Trump being under investigation. So perhaps Trump may not want to scratch this itch too deeply. I think mostly this was used as deflectionary tactics given the increased scrutiny his cabinet has fallen under as continued evidence of more and more meetings with Russian officials come to light.

In the end, time will tell.
 
First argument is in the official editorial in "The New York Post":

. . . But let's face it: From the day Trump won election, his foes have waged a by-any-means-necessary campaign to overturn the results.Officials (likely Obama-era holdovers) have broken the law and leaked what they hoped would be damaging info. Groups tied to Obama have stirred up angry protests against Trump and other Republicans.
The New York Times reported Obama’s staff purposely spread information throughout the administration that could hurt Trump, though they said the goal was to make sure the info wasn’t buried.
Critics say Trump’s wiretap claim is baseless, but what is truly lacking in solid evidence is the claim that there was some sort of collusion between Trump or his aides and Russian officials to hijack the election. Yet that’s all Trump’s foes (and much of the press) want to talk about.
Remember, too: Team Obama has a record of abusing power for political gain, as when the IRS targeted conservative groups.
At this point, it’s hard to know for sure if Trump Tower was actually bugged, and if so, who authorized the tapping and why. But given Team Obama’s record — and the never-ending bid to overturn the election — there’s little doubt why Trump might think the worst.​

Why Trump might suspect Obama bugged Trump Tower | New York Post
 
As Trump has provided zero evidence I fail to see its anything more than one of the mans MANY delusional 3AM tweets. Let the investigations play out, and chips fall.
 
yankintx said:
Let the investigations play out, and chips fall.
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I would be willing, but unfortunately too many in the MSM, in social media, and on message boards are not willing to allow that to happen. They are serving as prosecutors, judge, jury, and hopefully executioner and they don't care if they are accurate or ethical in doing so. So we might as well give it as good an airing as we can.
 
Ikari said:
Hard to know at this point. These are serious allegations, and if there is some hint that there is some truth to it, it needs to be investigated and any wrong doing properly punished.

It may turn out that there as indeed bugging, but that it was legal and due to Trump being under investigation. So perhaps Trump may not want to scratch this itch too deeply. I think mostly this was used as deflectionary tactics given the increased scrutiny his cabinet has fallen under as continued evidence of more and more meetings with Russian officials come to light.

In the end, time will tell.
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Exactly

Diversion and smoke screens to hide the trickle of Russian flavored contacts coming from the WH. Some old dogs, see it for the game it is, he is not fooling all of us.
 
Argument #2 from "The Hill":

Former Attorney General Michael Mukasey on Sunday said that President Trump is likely correct that there was surveillance on Trump Tower for intelligence purposes, but incorrect in accusing former President Barack Obama of ordering the wiretapping.

“I think he’s right in that there was surveillance and that it was conducted at the behest of the attorney general — at the Justice Department,” Mukasey told ABC’s “This Week. . .​
Former Bush attorney general: Trump likely right about surveillance | TheHill
 
I doubt he will do this, but it's up to President Trump to present the evidence, since he made the claim in the first place.

In my opinion, this seems to be just an attempted diversion from the recent Jeff Sessions/Russia debacle. Aside from speculation, I doubt Trump has much of anything to back up his claim.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I would be willing, but unfortunately too many in the MSM, in social media, and on message boards are not willing to allow that to happen. They are serving as prosecutors, judge, jury, and hopefully executioner and they don't care if they are accurate or ethical in doing so. So we might as well give it as good an airing as we can.
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Im sure Obama is not loosing any sleep over this, but Trump sure is with those 3AM delusional tweets. Without hard proof that is all there is, much like the Russian Dossier.
 
As usual I think Donald was just stirring up **** in order to distract us from something far more sinister that he is up to.
 
TheGoverness said:
I doubt he will do this, but it's up to President Trump to present the evidence, since he made the claim.

In my opinion, this seems to be just an attempted diversion from the recent Jeff Sessions/Russia debacle.
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And if things go from worrying to panic in the WH, expect even more outlandish 3AM claims from the Twitter in Chief.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I would be willing, but unfortunately too many in the MSM, in social media, and on message boards are not willing to allow that to happen. They are serving as prosecutors, judge, jury, and hopefully executioner and they don't care if they are accurate or ethical in doing so. So we might as well give it as good an airing as we can.
Click to expand...

Social media is just worthless venting, as demonstrated by Trump himself. Our New-Entertainment is going to do what it does. But in the end, we do have the capability of having a non-partisan investigation, and we should do that. Should do that into Trump's Russian ties as well. Very likely we won't get that, neither side wants a real investigation. It's better to have the divisive talking point so each side can point fingers at the other and scream. This sort of emotionalized rhetoric splits the People and encourages emotional over rational reactions. It's been the basis of Republocrat control for some time now.

I think the most likely explanation is that Trump is exaggerating or making things up to smoke screen from all the pressure and scrutiny his administration has been under since day 1. But investigate it all, and punish any wrong doing to the full extent of the law. I said the same thing for Hillary's e-mails. The only way to control the government is to hold it accountable for its transgressions.
 
To my understanding Obama didn't exactly order it, but got word of the plan at a meeting and green lighted it. The problem with what Trump said appears to be in his wording, not so much that Obama didn't have a hand to play in it.

Anyway, considering it wasn't Obama's idea I would have to side with bug gate.
 
AlbqOwl said:
I would be willing, but unfortunately too many in the MSM, in social media, and on message boards are not willing to allow that to happen. They are serving as prosecutors, judge, jury, and hopefully executioner and they don't care if they are accurate or ethical in doing so. So we might as well give it as good an airing as we can.
Click to expand...

The press overall is doing there job. If they had not discovered Flynn was a lying POS he would still have a job, Sessions is known rascist, and a tougher NUT to crack.
 
Argument #3:

"The Gateway Pundit" compiled a list of the wikileaks posting regarding surveillance ordered by the Obama Administration:

* The US National Security Agency bugged a private climate change strategy meeting; between UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon and German Chancellor Angela Merkel in Berlin;

* Obama bugged Chief of Staff of UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR) for long term interception targetting his Swiss phone;

* Obama singled out the Director of the Rules Division of the World Trade Organisation (WTO), Johann Human, and targetted his Swiss phone for long term interception;

* Obama intercepted top EU and Japanese trade ministers discussing their secret strategy and red lines to stop the US “extort[ing]” them at the WTO Doha arounds (the talks subsequently collapsed);

* Obama explicitly targeted five other top EU economic officials for long term interception, including their French, Austrian and Belgium phone numbers;

* Obama explicitly targetted the phones of Italy’s ambassador to NATO and other top Italian officials for long term interception; and

* Obama intercepted details of a critical private meeting between then French president Nicolas Sarkozy, Merkel and Berluscon, where the latter was told the Italian banking system was ready to “pop like a cork”. . .


. . .* In 2013 the liberal Washington Post expressed outrage after the revelation that the Justice Department had investigated the news gathering activities of a Fox News reporter as a potential crime in a probe of classified leaks. The reporter, Fox News’ James Rosen and his family, were part of an investigation into government officials anonymously leaking information to journalists. Rosen was not charged but his movements and actions were tracked.

* Also in 2013, members of the Associated Press were also a target of the surveillance. The ultra liberal New Yorker even noted that “In moderate and liberal circles, at least, the phone-records scandal, partly because it involves the dear old A.P. and partly because it raises anew the specter of Big Brother, may well present the most serious threat to Obama’s reputation.”

* Reporter Sharyl Attkisson said in 2014 that her personal computer and CBS laptop were hacked after she began filing stories about Benghazi that were unflattering to the Obama administration. A source who checked her laptop said the hacker used spyware “proprietary to a government agency,” according to an article in the New York Post.

Update – WikiLeaks tweeted overnight that the Obama Administration spied on their journalists as well:​
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/draft-heres-the-complete-list-of-victims-from-obamas-many-wiretaps/
 
TheGoverness said:
I doubt he will do this, but it's up to President Trump to present the evidence, since he made the claim in the first place.

In my opinion, this seems to be just an attempted diversion from the recent Jeff Sessions/Russia debacle. Aside from speculation, I doubt Trump has much of anything to back up his claim.
Click to expand...
But out of curiosity, why do you think the President has less credibility given the mounting evidence of massive surveillance initiated by the Obama Administration than President Obama or Nancy Pelosi who say "we don't do that"?
 
Ikari said:
Hard to know at this point. These are serious allegations, and if there is some hint that there is some truth to it, it needs to be investigated and any wrong doing properly punished.

It may turn out that there as indeed bugging, but that it was legal and due to Trump being under investigation. So perhaps Trump may not want to scratch this itch too deeply. I think mostly this was used as deflectionary tactics given the increased scrutiny his cabinet has fallen under as continued evidence of more and more meetings with Russian officials come to light.

In the end, time will tell.
Click to expand...

If there was evidence of Trump colluding with the Russians it would have been out there already. If Obama or the Obama admin had proof that Trump did something illegal and did nothing about it that's a problem for them as much as it is for Trump.

There isn't much question about whether Trump staff was monitored. All this conspiracy crap pretty much says that was the case. The only real questions at this point are whether the monitoring turned anything up and who ordered the monitoring.
 
AlbqOwl said:
How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?

What does President Obama know about that and when did he know it?

The MSM has been bending over backwards to denounce President Trump from saying it. Nancy Pelosi says "We don't do that." President Obama through his spokespeople has said "We didn't do that and couldn't have if we wanted to."

So where do we go to get the truth? Was any part of Trump Tower and/or the Trump campaign bugged? If it was, did the Obama have anything to do with it?

NOTE: Please keep this civil and on topic. There are plenty of threads out there to insult people and the President and/or his people. Here, let's put the best arguments out there that we can make pro or con on this scandal du jour whether it is our own thoughts or thoughtful arguments presented by others that makes the allegations plausible or not, likely or not, fact or not.
Click to expand...

The truth has to be told to the American People. We (all of us) should demand to know what FISA's were issued, when etc. However, the argument made that the "President couldn't have if he wanted to" - is absolutely false.


(1) Notwithstanding any other law, the President, through the Attorney General, may authorize electronic surveillance without a court order under this subchapter to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year if the Attorney General certifies in writing under oath that—
(A) the electronic surveillance is solely directed at—
(i) the acquisition of the contents of communications transmitted by means of communications used exclusively between or among foreign powers, as defined in section 1801(a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title; or
(ii) the acquisition of technical intelligence, other than the spoken communications of individuals, from property or premises under the open and exclusive control of a foreign power, as defined in section 1801(a)(1), (2), or (3) of this title;
 
AlbqOwl said:
How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?

What does President Obama know about that and when did he know it?

The MSM has been bending over backwards to denounce President Trump from saying it. Nancy Pelosi says "We don't do that." President Obama through his spokespeople has said "We didn't do that and couldn't have if we wanted to."

So where do we go to get the truth? Was any part of Trump Tower and/or the Trump campaign bugged? If it was, did the Obama have anything to do with it?

NOTE: Please keep this civil and on topic. There are plenty of threads out there to insult people and the President and/or his people. Here, let's put the best arguments out there that we can make pro or con on this scandal du jour whether it is our own thoughts or thoughtful arguments presented by others that makes the allegations plausible or not, likely or not, fact or not.
Click to expand...

Hard to say how much hard evidence he has. It may be carefully constructed circumstantial same. I'm pretty sure Obama or his administration would have insulated him quite carefully from any incriminating behavior. BUT the culture of an administration does count. Wink-wink-nudge-nudge is a mindset. And, of course, its where the buck stops.

All by itself re Nancy Pelosi. She's a wicked witch. I wouldn't believe her if her tongue came notarized.

As far as Obama's denial, couldn't have Done it if we wanted to . . . Well, that makes the assumption it was done quasi legally. I doubt the Watergate crew had warrants.
 
AlbqOwl said:
How much evidence does President Trump have that President Obama bugged Trump Tower?

What does President Obama know about that and when did he know it?

The MSM has been bending over backwards to denounce President Trump from saying it. Nancy Pelosi says "We don't do that." President Obama through his spokespeople has said "We didn't do that and couldn't have if we wanted to."

So where do we go to get the truth? Was any part of Trump Tower and/or the Trump campaign bugged? If it was, did the Obama have anything to do with it?

NOTE: Please keep this civil and on topic. There are plenty of threads out there to insult people and the President and/or his people. Here, let's put the best arguments out there that we can make pro or con on this scandal du jour whether it is our own thoughts or thoughtful arguments presented by others that makes the allegations plausible or not, likely or not, fact or not.
Click to expand...

Currently, there's no empirical evidence either way, so until there is, I have to say I don't know if it's true or not, but that it is very possible.

I do find it interesting that we have Senator Coons and Representative Schiff saying there are transcripts of conversations (via some sort of surveillance), and former DNI Clapper saying that they they no evidence of coordination between the Trump campaign and the Russians, yet they say no one tapped the phones of the Trump campaign. Those positions don't logically fit together. How can there be transcripts without taps, and how can the former DNI say that they didn't find any evidence if there were no taps?

Again, there's no empirical evidence yet either way, just talking heads that are contradicting themselves.
 
AlbqOwl said:
But out of curiosity, why do you think the President has less credibility given the mounting evidence of massive surveillance initiated by the Obama Administration than President Obama or Nancy Pelosi who say "we don't do that"?
Click to expand...

Who said I believed Obama or Pelosi? I'm simply stating that if Trump wants to make the claim that Obama wiretapped Trump tower, then he needs to back it up with something.

That's how it works. If you make a claim, then it's up to you to provide the evidence for that claim. Otherwise, there's no reason for me to accept it whatsoever. It's not a preposterous accusation, until there is something behind it, I'm not just gonna take Trump's word for it. Especially since he's made so many false statements before.
 
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Phys251 said:
As usual I think Donald was just stirring up **** in order to distract us from something far more sinister that he is up to.
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Specify anything more sinister than what is being done to him.
 
It is clear from this tread that Trumps outburst was more for his loyal followers than anything in reality.

Obama officials, intelligence officials, FBI and even some senior GOPers have all said it did not happen. The White House is also baffled and has been playing catch-up and damage control ever since.

That Trump basically has disappeared ever since he came with the accusations and has to send out his minions to promote another illegal travel ban, shows that he has nothing and he knows it.

Regardless even if there is an investigation because of this accusation, then it is exactly what Trump and his loyal supporters DONT want, as such investigations can rarely be fully controlled and Trumps links to Putin and his allies will be exposed. The irony is that Trump and his minions have tried to protect Trump from an investigation, but these tweets might just have opened Pandoras box..
 
It is literally laugh out loud funny to see people say "There is no proof...and I believe he is trying to distract us from Russia."
 
yankintx said:
Im sure Obama is not loosing any sleep over this, but Trump sure is with those 3AM delusional tweets. Without hard proof that is all there is, much like the Russian Dossier.
Click to expand...

I don't want personal insults, direct or backhanded please. I want those of you who are sure Trump is delusional to produce any evidence or argument related to Bug Gate that he is wrong in this matter.
 
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